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Viewing 13 posts - 31 through 43 (of 43 total)
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  • in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1425506
    jet manga
    Participant

    Noooo Mark… I said only two according to replies in this topic. Obviously my English is not so good 😉

    I don’t know how many visits had page novj.asp, because http://www.yuairwar.com is not mine site. But when site was started, his admin decided to use my book in part about Air War in 2nd WW. As you can see until today them didn’t change the NOVJ page. That is not so strange since I am only author who covered Antifascist side of story in the area.
    Later they also decided to publish additional information about local books and models here http://www.yuairwar.com/galerija.asp

    Kansan,
    Difference between RAF and NOVJ roundel you can best see here:

    http://www.yuairwar.com/images/spit-07.jpghttp://www.yuairwar.com/images/spit-07a.jpghttp://www.yuairwar.com/images/spit-02.jpghttp://www.yuairwar.com/images/spit-04.jpg

    You are also not wrong for RAF order of colours on fin but as Yugoslav flag was blue-white-red they had to reverse it to get right order of flag-colours. But in some cases RAF i.e. red-white-blue combination was kept on the fin. Question why is obsolete if you know order of colours on Croatian national flag and story about his Squadron Leader Hinko Soic.

    This was his personal Spitfire 😀

    http://www.yuairwar.com/images/Soic.jpg

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1426645
    jet manga
    Participant

    Mark,

    It is so called “soft Dj” pronounced like first letter of Juliet. That is not same letter as described “hard Dz” in Jazz and Jam.

    Croatian alphabet do not have letters Q, W, X, Y but have few specific letters (among 30 of them) such is Č (hard Ch), Ć (soft Ch), Đ (soft J), Dž (hard J), Lj (pronounced similar as first vocal of liana), Nj (new) and Ž (I cant find any word in English which is pronounced like that). Of course if you want to see those letters right – you must set your IE for Central European encoding 😀

    Regards
    JeT

    P.S. I must confirm again there is only two guys who find this interesting. Sorry Kansan 😉

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1427885
    jet manga
    Participant

    I almost foreget…

    NDH (Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska) Independent State of Croatia; Axis puppet state, roughly covering most of today’s Croatia, the whole Bosnia-Herzegovina and a part of Vojvodina

    NOVJ (Narodnooslobodilacka vojska Jugoslavije) National Liberation Army of Yugoslavia, the other designation for the NOV (the Communist-led resistance army)

    NOV i POJ (Narodnooslobodilacka vojska i partizanski odredi Jugoslavije) National Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia, the official designation of the volunteer resistance force following the creation of the first divisions and corps in November 1942; but before that was PO i DVJ (Partizanski odredi i dobrovoljačka vojska Jugoslavije); on 1st March 1945 renamed into JA (Yugoslav Army)

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1427983
    jet manga
    Participant

    Maybe I should not be so conclusive. It immediately finishes the discussion 😉

    Otherwise what is your opinion about former NDH and latter NOVJ Liaison Sqd bird – Fiat G.50 bis i.e. who today (of all former Yugoslav republics) have right to keep it as part of its national history?

    If some discussants from Serbia see my question – this could be hot one 😀

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1429258
    jet manga
    Participant

    😀

    Maybe Kansan… but in this case it is very small possibility.

    Probably tail section was used from some crash-landed R.A.F. Spitfire and still wasn’t painted in Partisan markings. You can see different camouflage pattern used on fin/stabiliser and ruder/elevator surfaces. So it obviously wasn’t painted yet.

    The cooperation between the NOVJ and Anglo-American Allies, which officially started in May 1943, was continued and, already in the second Allied Conference held in Quebeck on August 24, 1943, the decision was brought on the future allied support to the Partisans in terms of weapons and equipment. The turning point in the allied relation towards the NOVJ happened after the tripartite meeting Roosevelt-Stalin-Churchill in Teheran held from November 28 to December 01, 1943 when they brought the decision on recognition of the NOVJ as an Allied Force, as well as on further allied support to the Partisan movement in Yugoslavia. Passing through Cairo after the Teheran conference, Churchill met Brigadier Fitzroy Maclean who was Head of the Anglo-American Military Mission at the Vrhovni štab NOV and POJ (and also Churchill’s personal emissary) since September 1943. Obtaining thorough information about the situation in Yugoslavia, Churchill gave a green light to the continuation of co-operation. Accordingly what happened in December was the continuation of negotiations of Partisan general Velebit in the Middle East Command with General Henry Maitland Wilson (CinC Middle East), Air Marshal William Sholto Douglas (RAF CinC Middle East) and Admiral Willis. The consequence of these negotiations was a re-basement of the NOVJ 1st Air Force Base to Italy.

    On February 01, 1944 the Middle East Command issued order on the formation of the Yugoslav Squadrons. Consequently, negotiations in the NOVJ Supreme Command (Vrhovni štab) were continued between Maršal Tito and the Head of Air Force Department, pukovnik Franc Pirc with the Commander of Allied Military Mission, Brigadier Fitzroy Maclean and R.A.F. liaison officer, Wing Commander John Selby. On March 12, 1944 it resulted in Tito and Maclean’s signatures of the “Protocol on Training Yugoslav Pilots and Other Air Force Personnel as well as the Formation of Yugoslav Fighter and Bomber Squadrons within the R.A.F.”.

    Some of the most significant regulations of that Contract were as follows:

    – To immediately identify the most skilful pilots and necessary professional personnel among the gathered ones who will be the first to be taken into consideration for the formation of fighter squadron, while other personnel will be allocated on different trainings according to their qualifications and skills.
    – Skilled pilots and professional personnel of the former Royal Air Force residing in the Middle East, upon joining the personnel for the Squadron formation, should be posted to basic staff and training duties, for other pilots and auxiliary personnel.
    – Pilots incapable of running pilot-fighters and capable of running bombers will be sent to bomber training, and after the completion of simultaneous training for other personnel (observers, radio-telegraphists, machine-gunners), entire bomber crews will be formed from among them.
    – According to Maršal Tito’s request, pilots who are not operatively competent will be trained as liaison pilots for special Yugoslav needs and they will, after the completion of their training, be allocated in the Supreme Command Liaison Squadron (Eskadrila za vezu VŠ).
    – Pilots who need longer training will be subsequently allocated in the squadron as soon as they have completed their training.
    – As soon as the newly-formed squadron is ready for independent action, it will be assigned to one of R.A.F.’s Wings and will always be allocated to an airport from which its activities are to be aimed at targets in Yugoslavia. The squadron will administratively and operatively be subordinated to R.A.F., but with missions assigned preferably over the territory of Yugoslavia.
    – Operative requests of the VŠ NOV i POJ will be proceeded via R.A.F. Command that will be in charge of assigning squadron missions.
    – After the squadron is organised, all personnel will wear the prescribed Yugoslav uniforms and aircraft will be marked with a “Red star” within the standard British marking on aircraft.
    – Complete material and technical supply and fulfilment of all other needs for the Yugoslav squadron will be the same as for other R.A.F. squadrons.
    – The Yugoslav squadron personnel takes an oath only to Maršal Tito and Yugoslavia, but appropriate agreement should be made by the Supreme R.A.F. Command because the British Military Mission does not have such authority.

    So No.352 Sqd Spits in action could look only like this:

    http://www.yuairwar.com/images/BR130.jpg

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1430607
    jet manga
    Participant

    In this case, I think it was option C)

    But Mark can definitely describe it better in his native language 😉

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1431522
    jet manga
    Participant

    …and forget to mention how second Spitfire (look right) have unusual colour contrast for usual Mediterranean (grey-green) camouflage. So there is great possibility she has applied Desert (sand-brown) camouflage.

    That is also very unusual for theatre of operation.

    JeT

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1431525
    jet manga
    Participant

    Mark,

    Many thanks for that. Fascinating stuff.

    According to replies it fascinate only two 🙁

    Now if we could get the ‘Merlins over Malta’ duo to swing by the Vis reunion on their outward or return journey up the ‘leg’ of Italy, a short hop across the Adriatic, it would certainly get a few hearts racing, apart from the pilot’s…

    …only joking Glenn.

    Why not? You need just few good men on right position. Maybe someone could contact that Veteran Association ad suggest it.

    That photo on Vis is particularly interesting. A tropical filter Spitfire Mk V but fitted with an extended horn elevator and associate tailplanes from a Mk IX. A replacement or fitted from new?

    For me more interested is combination of R.A.F. markings on fin with Partisan insignia on fuselage. Who knows… maybe she flew for some time in that insignia combination 😉

    JeT

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1338653
    jet manga
    Participant

    Vis appron

    http://www.yuairwar.com/images/36_radionica.jpg

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1338854
    jet manga
    Participant

    R.A.F. Air Station – Vis

    Mark,

    you still have chance to visit it, if you connect yourself with RAF Veterans Association. In beginning of September they will have reunion on Vis. Reunion is organised also by UK Embassy in Croatia.

    Btw Air Station Vis is mentioned more than few times in http://www.yuairwar.com/novj.asp and here I can give you some extracts just to for get the general idea:

    Combat Activities and Losses of the No. 352 (Y) Squadron since August 1944

    Regarding the assigned combat missions, the squadron received orders from the 281st Wing Commander and the R.A.F. Air Station – Vis Commander who defined and specified in accordance with their guidelines the following elements of combat activities; type of the target, manner of activities, number of aircraft, take off time and how to carry out the mission. The squadron executed combat missions exclusively on the former Yugoslav territory, the majority of which was in the coastal and mountain areas of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, and more rarely Monte Negro and Kosovo.
    The presumed squadron missions mainly consisted of the following fighter-bomber missions:
    – combat activities over enemy traffic and transport on the ground, sea and in the air,
    – combat activities over enemy manpower and technical equipment, commands and coastal batteries, harbours and ports as well as other stationary targets,
    – providing fighter protection for facilities, naval convoys and other aircraft,
    – reconnoitring enemy movements and occasionally weather situation,
    – neutralisation of AAA, direct firing support to the NOVJ units, and sweep missions.

    The Beginning of Activities and Losses of the No. 352 (Y) Squadron since August to October, 1944

    On August 16, upon the arrival of all 16 aircraft onto the Canne runway, the squadron numbered 13 Spitfires of Mk V.C version, and three Spitfires of older version Mk V.B.. Apart from the already described problems due to different maintenance methods of these two versions, another problem arose concerning the differences in mutually irreplaceable bomb carriers that were supposed to be installed into the aircraft upon their acquisition. Hence, air-mechanics immediately started to work on the carrier installation intended for two bombs of 250 lb (112kg). Almost at the same time, on August 17, 1944, during these works the No. 352 (Y) Squadron was assigned its first combat mission, the same as the following ones during the next five days until the completion of works on the carrier installation and auxiliary gas-tank check. While the squadron was still being gradually introduced into fighting, its first combat missions consisted mostly of providing fighter protection to the neighbouring British fighter-bomber squadrons from the No. 281 B.A.F. Wing (the squadrons were noted as follows: No. 32 , No. 249 and No. 253 Hyderabad State).

    On August 23 the unit was proclaimed ready for the beginning of independent activities, and a group of 6 aircraft led by Commander Protić took off for their first independent mission of bombing the Marčetić village situated north-west from Knin. The British high officers, such as
    Air Chief Marshal Charles Portal (Chief of Air Staff) and Air Marshal Sir John Slessor (CinC Coastal Command) as well as the B.A.F. Commander, Air Vice Marshal Sir Wiliam Elliot had an opportunity to personally witness the units readiness. From that time on the squadron entered the period of intensive activities, mostly above the Dalmatian and BiH area. The activities were performed in groups of six and more rarely eight aircraft, while the majority of missions were launched in pairs or groups of two pairs or fours.

    ——————————–

    Already from January 1944, a British commando unit was located on Vis and was in charge of fitting the radio-station for the connection with the allied aircraft. At the beginning of the same month, the meeting regarding the construction of the auxiliary airfield on Vis was held between the Commander of the Allied Military Mission at VŠ, Brigadier Fitzroy Maclean escorted by the VŠ representative, Vladimir Velebit and the representative of the NOVJ Naval Command (Zapovjedništvo Mornarice NOVJ) to which the island, i.e. the Vis Town Command was directly subordinated. After that, on January 20 the VŠ brought the decision on consistent defence of the island of Vis, and on March 23, the R.A.F. expert commission arrived onVis to choose the ground for the airport construction in the wine-growing area of Velo Polje. After the arrival of British mechanisation and with the help of Partisans and citizens of Vis around 60 hectares of vineyards were cleared between April 18 and 25 for the construction of the auxiliary airfield for the Allied bombers and fighters which were most frequently flying on bombing missions from Italy to targets in Austria, Hungary and Romania. The largest problem during these works occurred during the construction of the runway. Due to surrounding area relief in the rainy periods, a larger amount of water was pouring down the surrounding hills to the valley, i.e. the field and very slowly flowing away from the runway which made taking off and, in particular landing difficult or even completely impossible. The solution was found in the installation of special profile steel boards (the same as at the Canne airport) which had already mentioned disadvantages leading to tyre damages and swinging off the runway. Apart from the basic runway dimensions of 900 x 60m, there were additional 150 meters of security extension on the runway tresholds which resulted in the largest runway length of 1200 m.

    The airport was officially open on May 1, 1944 when the first R.A.F. fighter flew down on the runway. From February 1944 up to then, the Vis anti-aircraft defence consisted of only 15 AAA machine-guns from the NOVJ 26th Dalmatian Division, but from May onwards the detached fighter aircraft from British squadrons also protected the airfield. At the same time, the Auxiliary Allied Air Force Base was organised, as well as the SAR (Search and Rescue) service. The importance of the Vis airport for the Allies could be seen in the fact that, in the period between July and September 1944 215 allied four-engine bombers with 1936 fliers made forced landing on Vis. Moreover, 204 aircraft were repaired and continued their flights towards Italy. However, with the VŠ arrival on Vis in June, the AAA defence was significantly reinforced. Therefore the R.A.F. assigned the special anti-aircraft unit from Rome for the protection of the Hum Hill, which was the VŠ Seat and, later on two more AAA batteries equipped with radars from the 2825th B.A.F. Regiment. Two observation radars were set up on the Stončica and Barjaci Capes guiding three 94 mm AAA batteries. Thus, the bulk of the island’s AAA defence consisted of 24 cal. 94 cannons, 20 cal. 20 cannons and 18 cal. 12.7 heavy machine guns. Besides that, additional 5000 British soldiers were based on the island, along with 4500 to 9700 Partisan soldiers. This included the following units: No. 2 Special Air Service Brigade, No. 2 Highland Light Infantry Battalion (Scottish), No. 111 Field Infantry Regiment, and parts of the Auxiliary Assault Regiment i.e. invasion force.

    Besides that, the Vis airfield ensured to the Allied aircraft the expansion of flight range for about 300 km in relation to the bases in Italy. Hence, already on August 19 the first two Spitfires Mk V.C from the No. 352 (Y) Squadron arrived, and in the next few days several more Spitfires joined them, thus forming the Vis “Detachment” which since then overtook the fighter protection to the airport which included the VŠ. On October 18 they were followed by the arrival of six Hurricanes Mk IV on Vis, which presented the No. 351 (Y) Squadron combat “Detachment”.
    Most probably on August 26, 12 Spitfires with pilots and 24 ground mechanics, landed on Vis. On the occasion of Maršal Tito’s review and inspection of the NOVJ 26th Dalmatian Division, he visited this Royal Air Force No. 352 (Y) Squadron “Detachment” and the VŠ Liaison Squadron, holding a short speech. The Air Vice Marshal Sir William Elliot (B.A.F. CinC) also attended this event.

    Apart from the arrival of the No. 352 (Y) Squadron Detachment, on August 18, 1944 the VŠ Liaison Squadron (Eskadrila za vezu VŠ) was officially organised under the command of potpukovnik Jevrem Bijelica and later on Zdenko Ulepič. Besides two SAIMAN 200 aircraft (probably Salih Hađiomerivić defected in one of them on April 6, while the NDH pilots, Cerinski and Majnarić defected in another one on June 25), the unit had four Po-2 liaison aircraft which had been brought from Bari on August 14, but disassembled in two Lisunov Li-2 and given to the NOVJ by the Soviets. However, the majority of various squadron aircraft and pilots were acquired later, after the defections from the NDH Air Force.

    Already on August 27, the squadron disposed of a Fizir F.P.2 in which the pilot, zastavnik Fatih Delić and the military official, Mitar Obučina had defected from Mostar to Vis.
    Most probably on August 26 (or September 2) the unit acquired a fighter of the Italian make Fiat G.50 bis (reg. 3505) in which poručnik Andrija Arapović had defected from 2nd Squadron 1st Wing (2. jato 1. skupina) based in 1st Air base (1. zrakoplovna luka) Borongaj (Zagreb) to Vis.
    On September 3 a pilot, zastavnik Nenad Kovačević defected from Rajlovac to Italy with a cadet-pilot in the Bü 181C Bestmann after which it was allocated to the VŠ Liaison Squadron.

    ————————————-

    …and story about that Fiat G.50 bis (reg. 3505) is one whole new subject for discussion. Especially since it is last example in the World today.

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1339538
    jet manga
    Participant

    Is there any other interest about the topic or questions about the historic aviation in Croatia?

    I would be glad to answer you.

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1341551
    jet manga
    Participant

    Tnx Mark, Moggy, TT for kind welcome…

    Of course I’ll do my best but as you probably know that is small area for big posting 😉

    in reply to: I found this lurking in the back of… #1341666
    jet manga
    Participant

    Clearly it has not flown for quite a while and it seems the Aeroclub lacks the funds to restore it.

    Hi Mark 😉

    Just to mention Aero-3 is not flying since 70’s but her engine is in perfect condition. For example last month it started from first attempt. Aero-3 manages to survive the 1991-95 war against Croatia tnx to Aero Club personnel and because she was towed to Split airport and hidden in some former YuAF underground facilities.

    Today main problem is unsolved ownership over her because as a former AF bird she was signed in register as ownership of Yugo-Aero Club association, although AC Split-Sinj operated it all the time.

    Also in my first post I wish to send best regards to all enthusiasts & professionals who are contributing to this forum.

    All the best
    JeT

Viewing 13 posts - 31 through 43 (of 43 total)