I blame Italian Harvard, he was the one who wanted the thread to move in a different direction !!! My thoughts on the original subject are, that it doesn’t matter what the history of the item is ,its why you want to own it ,is it because you have a macabre facination with death, or is it because you want that type of item, but the only one on offer is from a fatality crashsite; in my own project there is some crash recovered items, much of which I know very little about, which suits me fine; hypothetically if I had for example a gun sight that the pilot struck on impact, and may have contributed to his death, then , that would concern me, as everytime you sat in the seat you’d see it and be reminded of that. An item that was in the crash but in itself wasn’t responsible for any deaths, would be ok after all the “crash and smash” crews would have used anything they needed as long as it was servicable.

So its just me then thats into guns and knives…..; this thread has become confused. its trying to resolve two seperate issues, one being collection of items from known fatalities, and stuff with bad karma. As we are running out of rercognized curency, this is my 2 brass razoo’s worth; I’ve got a Martini Henry rifle, dated 1879 its exactly the right date for the “Zulu war” (Rourkes Drift et al ) am I bothered ? not a bit ,fact is it’s still used for its intended purpose ,i.e killing; in this case vermin (no Pete not the pikes!!) The Martini Henry was originally equipt with a 2ft long bayonet ,that was never used for opening cans of beans!! The weapon has a small part to play in history, as the modifications made to it ,i.e the change of calibre from .577 to .303 in about 1890, and its final sleeving to .22 , in the early part of last century show how the British army were reluctant to let a very accurate and reliable weapon go ,despite huge amounts of Lee Enfield’s available. There are hundreds of these rifles still in existance, but quite a number were never issue and are still in .577 calibre The SS stuff could be seen as distasteful, but I marvel at how quickly a country such as Germany could re brand itself , swastica’s ,jackboots, SS uniforms, Tiger tanks ,Stukas, BF109’s ,they are all inseperable; the fact that as aviation enthusiasts we enjoy seeing BF109’s, and long to see Stukas at air shows, doesn’t mean that they were any lesser tools of the Nazi war machine. Possibly the reason for the scarcity of the afore mentioned A/C, is that just after the war, most people found any representation of the third reich distastful and destroyed them, (my mum would still panic at the sound of V1, and has always hated them) but the way of dealing with evil such as the Nazi’s is not to destroy all images, but to look at them and remember, not just the evil deeds, but also what drove men to do them. Museums in this age of political correctness are reluctant to display Nazi images, so how does the ordinary man in the street see these things? My friend has a swastica arm band that his friend gave to him shortly before he died, the man that gave it to him was, Adolf Hitler, as he was a runner at the games held in Germany in the late thirties (37?) and everybody got one; bit like a crackerjack pencil!! ,but a sobering thought, that AH was only two touches away.

I’m not sure you can use the word “confirmed” and BBMF Lanc in the same sentence!!

Didn’t the damaged Lanc (ex C Church go to Kermit Weeks? I’ve got an original auction brochure from Phillips ,and at the time of the sale the museum site was owned by Queens Moat Houses PLC ….. In the forward to the brochure it mentions that the museum had been on going for 16 years (1983), and that the original venture had failed,but “rescued” by local “businessmen “,whereapon the Historic Aircraft Society (Southend) was formed . The guide price for the Lincoln was £6000-8000 the Sea fury was £15000- 20000 ; what happened to that?

The original thread mentions one of the recoverers, Fred Hagen ,is he the chap that was featured in the “Lost Bomber” programe, in which he searches PNG for his uncle’s(?) B25 ?

This argu.. sorry discussion is as old as the hills, and will not be resolved here ,or anywhere; one only has to look at the world of traction engines, to see that they argue endlessly about what colour is right for what engine, and even the correct width of the pinstripes ,what should be polished and what shouldn’t. The main argument in their case is that there are well known engines and original operators ,and that if everybody was to paint their engines in “Pickfords” livery it would be a poor repesentation of what their part in history actually was. Most owners of warbirds now are responsible enough to adopt an accurate colour scheme for their A/C, but FSM s seem to be fair game for anything, and you could argue that as they are all mkIX s and dimensionally wrong to start with (for BoB period etc) that having the correct colour scheme and roundels, and codes etc still leaves the finished product with “nil point”; personally I’m suprised that they didn’t put it in 19 sqn markings, and maybe pick a pilot from that sqn , and find someone who regularily flew QV-A or what ever and take that out to the masses (you could almost go through the whole sqn year on year just by changing the individual letter). In any event I’m not sure that a “mobile banner” is what Duxford needs , as the entry price is enough to frighten all but the most dedicated away (our FoD membership is now in th £70’s and so far it hasn’t been renewed).

I would have expected as much, it is after all 200+ years old!!, and however little of the original ship that does remain ,its still more than many flying A/C , many of which are only a quarter of “her” age ,and have been undercover for at least half of their lives!

personally i have never seen the point of preserving just the cockpit..its like buying a old classic car and just keeping the dashboard !!!!. i have never looked at a cockpit and thought, thats a fantastic looking aircraft..a aircaft has got wings and a tail… oh **** that one havnt got eny !!!!!!.
i would give my right arm to help preserve a classic. but i cant just admire a aircraft parked with moss growing out of its exhausts.
i own a vintage tractor, and there is nothing better then to hook up to a plough and use her as to what she was made for. i know you cannot compare restoring and running a old tractor to a aircraft. but people like to see them working. i have took my old girl to shows as a static exhibit..noboby is interested.. but when i have taken her to a working day..people take notice and are a lot more interested. i think it is the same with eny preserved machine..be it a model T ford or a vulcan.
personally i love looking round aircraft museums..but i would i love aircraft… aircraft preservation has got to be more interesting for the people sat on the fence…

I think you hit the nail on the head, when you said “you can’t compare restoring and running a old tractor to a aircraft” Take the Ford E27N for example, almost entirely cast iron/steel even the wheels ,and if on spade lugs you don’t even have to worry about perished tyres, you could left one out in all weathers from new and only have to replace the tin mudguards now. Almost all vintage tractors will go in an ordinary single garage,many can be trailered behind a 4×4 ,and there is a myriad of events on throughout the year for people to chug around to their hearts content. Most A/C on the other hand are a tadge wider than a single garage will not fit on a trailer behind a 4×4 and there is virtually no events where visiting A/C lowloaded in can ground run/ taxied. The high content of magnesium used in their construction, makes them far less suitable for prolonged exposure to the British weather, and after a relatively short period there can be suprisingly little left. Then theres the cockpit issue that Kev35 mentioned originally, take the Hurricane as an example, if as many cockpits had been saved as Data plates from Spitfires ,just think of the numbers that would be flying today; whos to say that cockpits preserved today won’t be part of a flying (or even just a static) project in years to come as perhaps a new enthusiasm for jets comes about, perhaps by the relaxation of CAA rules/regulations. Looking at aircraft preservation, and the future of, I’d say that the biggest problem likely to come about is, the lack of skilled restorers ; the way that the basic trades are being neglected in schools in favour of “IT, human resourses” and plenty of other “management speak” type activities, who will be doing the restoration and conservation in 20 years from now? As Bruce says the quality of restoration varies enormously even now, but people (general public)are expecting perfection ; if you look at the early days of traction engine preservation ,the engines were in the main scruffy, with only the “showmans”engines (fairground types) that were polished, nowdays even the humble steam roller is presented to the general public in concours condition, and so the standard is being set by those that can afford to “gild the lilly” ,in the case of aircraft preservation that will be the nationals and as ever the rich individuals, but every one will be judged against them.