TurbiniaCost. People tend to overlook the impact of consumables, bunker capacity, water etc. on displacement and cost, it’s one of the great unseen yet hugely important aspects of design that may lack the glamour of the latest radar and missiles but is critical to vessel operations. Same as stability and sea keeping. And a good indication of why just looking at spec sheets of weapons and sensor systems is far from giving a good assessment of a vessels capabilities.
TurbiniaI am not saying its like the Gorshkov.Its just another controversy for the IN to deal with after the gorshkov fiasco.
I am sure thats correct and the IN knew all along about the clauses and restrictions.And the US is not being blamed for the clauses they put in.They did what they had to do according to their interest.But the fact that those were accepted by the procuring party.And also the fact that if there isnt any realistic chance that this will be used in an actual war and that it is an old ship why put in the clauses at all?And the other more important issue >>In the era of increasing India-US cooperation if US could put in restrictions for a old LPD..what happens with future deals in offensive equipment?
This is only a controversey because it seems certain Indian political parties want it to be, the vendor offered sales terms, the purchaser accepted and the deal was done, there was nothing underhand from the US and so there is no way the purchaser can complain about the sale conditions. And this is irrelevant to future deals, any future deals will be negotiated on a case by case basis.
TurbiniaThe answer is then to look elsewhere. If the IN signed a contract in the full knowledge of what strings were attached then any questions over the reasons and implications should be addressed to the IN, not the USA. If these strings are unnacceptable nobody forced the IN to buy, just like there is plenty of competition for the other equipment they may buy from the US. This isn’t at all like Gorshkov where the IN signed a contract which has deviated from what was agreed by a massive amount in both price and delivery schedules.
TurbiniaThe unit manufacturing cost might look affordable, but take into account what the RAN would be expected to pay for rights to build (i.e. paying towards program costs) and the cost would be frightening compared to the F100 I’m guessing. Plus, the RAN wants a air warfare destroyer, so why buy a design optimised for land attack, albeit with a strong air warfare capability? A huge part of the DDX costs are due to the requirements of it’s land attack role, which may be useful to the RAN but probably not to the extent it’d be worth paying the massive costs of buying into the program.
TurbiniaLook, how many times do people have to spell it out for you? China, India, South Korea and others have done exactly what the USSR and Russia did, they’re using external technology transfers and technical assistance to massively accelerate their own development. That doesn’t detract from their achievements. Did Russia achieve nuclear controlled fission first? No. commercial nuclear power? No. Heavier than air flight? No. The steam turbine? No. The gas turbine/jet engine? No. The industrial revolution? No. The internal combustion engine? No. The computer? No. The list could go on, nobody here would see that as detracting from subsequent Russian technical achievements but it pulls the floor out from under the feet of racist half wits who claim that China, India, South Korea etc. following the same path of technical development proves they’re less intelligent and incapable of true achievement. I mean, what a co-incidence that the Soviets just happened to build a bomber that was identical to the B29:rolleyes:
TurbiniaIMO the NSC is a far better basis for a USN light surface combatant than the LCS.
TurbiniaIn ability looking beyond military for high tech as if high tech exists without military Science? from where this internet, high end software, satellites, high powered engines, compact nuclear reactors came from?
I feel sorry for Japanese that the need West for rescuing Nissan/Mazda/Mitsubishi/Suzuki/Subaru/Sony and have to built design studios in West for Toyota/Honda to keep them float. and there best minds and resources were not even tied down in defence Industrial complex or direct wars or supporting third world countries wars like Russia did. . Ever thought about Samsung/LG how closed 40 year gap with Japanese in less than 10 years. or more than 1 million immigrants went to Israel that transform into high tech power in 80s. did all of them came from Asia?
You cannot ignore facts just by saying some one is racist. the rest of the countries are not even worth discussing.
There you all go. The Japanese have never achieved anything:rolleyes: There is no high tech outside the military world:rolleyes: There was no technology in Israel before the wave of Soviet emmigration with the collapse of Communism:rolleyes: I rest my case.
TurbiniaIndeed, figure in a training and attrition reserve, the fact that the RAF will have requirements of their own for F35B units and the fact that the UK still doesn’t know how much F35B will cost and the true availability of F35B’s for CVF is still a huge question mark.
TurbiniaI suspect that the numbers of UK F35’s will be more of a limiting factor than vessel capacity, but whatever, great news and fantastic to see things finally happening on CVF!:)
TurbiniaDon’t get me wrong, I’m delighted to see CVF going full steam ahead (finally!!), proud of T45 and Astute and hope FSC will give the RN a balanced future fleet, but i also think we need to keep some perspective, and for all I have grave doubts about current UK defence policy I really am happy to live in a country where healthcare, education etc. have a higher priority and we don’t have a government squandering the nations wealth on weapons we neither need nor can afford. We have the fundamentals to expand the RN at any point if needed so long as we can maintain the ship building and defence industries as they are now, and even with our inadequate defence spending in many ways, we should be able to do that. Plus we need to keep our good relationships with the USA and our EU partners to maintain alliances and defence industrial co-operation.
On T23, the basic hull is still a good’un, it could be given significantly enhanced land attack capability quite easily IMO by substituting Harpoon for Kongsberg NSM (even 8 NSM cannisters would give it real punch) and possibly the talked about 155mm Mk.8 replacement, although I’d be tempted to land a medium callibre gun in favour of either a 57mm or 76mm with smart ammo for dual purpose CIWS and naval gunnery, IMO what the vessel would lose in land attack fire power would be more than compensated by way of extra CIWS capability. And I’d fit something like VL Mica and Sea RAM.
TurbiniaI’ve thought from the outset that a new generation T23 derivative is the way to go on a lower end combatant with T45 as the high end. Newer machinery, lean manning, high level automation could slash the crew, I’m guessing you could reduce crewing by more than half if you really wanted to. And the basic hull is still a first class design and still one of the best ASW platforms anywhere.
On the wider question, much as I am a follower of military affairs and an ex-service person myself (though not RN), for all I would love to see a better funded forces it’s also true we’re more than able to defend ourselves from any realistic threat, and IMO one of the things going for the UK is that military matters are not the defining issue and we’ve matured beyond ego driven vanity delusions in the field. If that means trading off military power for a better country then so be it, we don’t want to end up obsessed with military power as a means of hiding from the realities of everyday life the way some countries are doing and how the empire was used in such a way a century ago.
Turbinia:confused: Where do you see that in his response? I have been thru it several times but failed to locate any racistic context.:confused:
Star49 has a history of writing off anything and everything achieved by India, China, Japan etc. as rubish/copying/low tech blah blah blah, he has a pathological inability to accept that these countries are capable of high tech engineering/science. He is incapable of looking beyond military hardware and writes Japan off as a country of low achievement, so who else here lives in a world where Japan is incapable of world beating high tech? I’m sure the average Japanese wishes they could swap places with some of the other “real high tech” countries:rolleyes:
TurbiniaRussia is already in arms race with Rest of the World and they will win it just like the previous one. so arms race with China does not matter. Look what China is adding it is not real capability. u can get much more capaiblity with fraction of cost by mere giving avionic/weopons/engines/structure upgrades to MIG-31/Su-27SM/Su-24/Su-24. China has build newer J-10/JH-7/J-11 with far less capability. I am not going into bombers/transport fleet upgradation.
The same is true for naval aviation, missile testing ranges, Submarine patrols in interantional waters, multi fact joint exercies, satellite lauch capability from multi platforms and multi places.
U have to look at Japan. Even if it wants it cannot match medium size power like France in military capability. It is pretty much one dimensional countries.
You really do hate foreigners, especially foreigners with darker skin or different shaped eyes don’t you?
TurbiniaSome people here are seriously under estimating the marine engineering expertise and industrial base the Chinese are building up, and with their economic growth they’re going to be in a much stronger position to support a sustained military build up than Russia in the future IMO, if Russia tries to get into an arms race with China it’d be disastrous for them.
TurbiniaSo to summarise Star49’s ideas;
-Russian pollution= good, Chinese pollution=bad
-inflation=good and those who don’t agree don’t understand economics
-the Gorshkov program is in tip top shape, on budget and on time and those who don’t agree don’t know what they’re talking about:rolleyes:
Jeez, talk about sanity………..
Sign In
