Nice one, keep up the good work, how is the weather in fantasy land:diablo: I’ll let Neptune have his fun pointing out where all that foreign expertise is:D :diablo:

OK Nick, you want to demonstrate knowledge of shipping, tell me, why would you use thinner shell plate amidships?

If you want a serious argument then do more than just throw a list of names up and tell somebody to learn how to use an Internet search engine. Since that is all you did and didn’t attempt to rebut my argument in a logical manner don’t be surprised at my response. And don’t assume that I don’t know anything about the programs you mention.

So no, it would not have been cheaper for each to have gone their own way. It could have been done quicker & cheaper, but only with a different shared development model, not with 4 separate developments.

That is why I believe national programs would have been better, due to the politics of this program, the constant arguments over funding, capabilities, priorities, work share, leadership etc. and the very idea of design by committee, it is very hard to see how the business model could have been improved without a quantum shift in political attitudes from the four partners which was unlikely to happen. Developing the EF Typhoon was never going to be cheap, but the cost and time scale were inflated hugely by the sort of problems I’ve just listed.
A good model of international co-operation is the German-Dutch-Spanish one on new generation destroyers that led to the F124, De Zeven Provincien and F100, co-operating in areas where it makes sense but doing it in a loose way with a very large degree of national autonomy leading to very different final designs. Compare that with NFR90 and Horizon, which suffered the same sort of problems as the EF Typhoon:(

Great discussion:rolleyes:

Yeah whatever, I have no interest in a my-penis-is-bigger-than-yours pissing contest. The unfortunate fact for you is that Indian indigenous programs have cost a lot, delivered little and India still relies on foreign technology.

I dunno, when I worked in the oil industry it was a given that Arab clients would be flown to Europe and supplied with prostitutes, taken to casinos and be given expensive “gifts” in a way that went far beyond a tradition of exchanging gifts as goodwill. I saw the same thing when I worked for a jet engine builder.

PS. the oil industry companies in question were NOT British.

In time I believe Lockheed Martin will indeed regret the sort of offset and technology access deals that have been signed with foreign partners. The UK was in from day one from the very first concept phase, since then all sorts of countries have came onboard and they all have ambitions on technology access. My own view is that this is a common problem in military equipment, I really think the four EF Typhoon partners would have got their fighters sooner and cheaper by pursuing their own programs.

I think this is shameful, and an utter disgrace. That said, nobody should try and pretend the world of international arms sales isn’t a sewer, and to get contracts in places like Saudi that’s just the way business is done. Shameful I know, but true. So don’t try and paint this disgrace as a purely british affliction.