Wrong. F-22 MAWS is IR, which is why for future upgrade they plan to add IRST function. US MAWS for helicopters and low flying aircraft are UV. Earlier US fighters (or any Cold War fighters) don’t have MAWS. Typhoon MAWS is radar based.

Rafale fighter with SPECTRA suite has infrared MAWS too, and grippen i think too.

Very strange Typhoon has active Maws, i do not understand it.

The guy in the article in post #1648 already did this job for us:

Su-35 S around 25 million dollars. So around 10 millions dollars more Su-57 for similar batch,…yes it should be. It has sense, new weapons apart and new engine iz-30.

https://iz.ru/878906/ilia-kramnik/poltrilliona-za-gospodstvo-v-vozdukhe-skolko-stoit-partiia-su-57

Here other estimation, around 450-500 billons of rubles for 76 units. It included all new weapons and iz-30.

Seriously RALL? This is disapointing

> Do you think they order serial planes without functional WBs?
> CM launch from the bays was already shown like one year ago
> Can you just maybe think the bays are still classified and hence you see no detailed pictures of them? Maybe something to do with tactical relevant info like current and future weapons carrying capabilities?

Only different element of maturity I see are the engines. Other than that, you can argue that the lack of updates on the plane is rather a sign of failure to create a future-proof plane than a merit…

Not to attack, but there is clearly a bias in how we look things and you are not taking a very neutral stance here to understand that Russians normally reduce the program risks by reducing the size of the technological steps, Su-35S as a 4++G plane being the immediate step before the 5G Su-57, which is a phase the US didn’t go through. Instead, F-22 was preceded by YF-22 and redesigned thoroughly before being accepted. The program started in the 80’s and the first F-22 was commissioned in 2005. So the maturation process was through a very long program and a technological demonstrator that did not enter serial production (so USAF had no hedge against program failure) while in Russia an intermediate model was created, both for testing technologies and to give VKS an insurance in case the program had delays or would completely fail. This is quite smart and in line with proper risk management practices BTW, I dont know why people insist in criticising the program because of this when it just shows intelligent and successful management.

Where are the new missiles for Su-57 to replace R-73 and R-77? this is the most important weapon in a fighter. have you seen some about this? Next year RuAF will have 1 serie Su-57, and will be good moment for show all this….no excuses for this nest year is we do not see it.

And why do they need to hide weapons bay? oh yes, maybe they have a photonic radar inside and do not want nobody can see it.:D

Out jokes. I do not understand all these secrets about this Weapons bay and lack of videos showing firing new missiles. This is the most better marketing piece for possible buyers from abroad. Do you think is a mature airplane when they had thought to buy only 16 units untill 2028 only 2 days ago?

Maybe they could fix all problems and now will build 76 units until 2028, but you know it is many time until 2028, it is near of 10 years (a decade), and not necesarialy will buy many units on next 4-5 years. It is very possible the most units will be emsambling on the last years from 2025 to 2028, so IMO they have many time for development yet.

Each person can think what they want, but for me it is not a mature airplane on this moment. If i see on next months different things around the airplane, i will change my mind, and will tell YES, this airplane seems on good shape, but not in this moment. People forget very fast but Indians left program few months ago, ……what stupid people they are when they have obsolotes Mig-21´s and can have a new and mature Su-57 if they would want at 35 million dollars per unit. Crazy indias.:confused:

Now is a new game, Turkey affaire, and IMO all this happens because it is a good opportunity for Russia and export to Turkey the Su-57, and the better way is showing you trust on your airplane doing a bigger contract than 16 units until 2028.

And now some off topic, i think people need to be more open mind, this is not a footbal game. Everybody can have some reason, it is only opinions and nobody knows exactly what is happening in any program. Relax.

[USER=”76365″]RALL[/USER]

Su-57 will have composites, but i read time ago Su-35 S have many composites in his airframe too, for to reduce and improve its RCS. You think Su-27 is around 10-15 m2 and Su-35 S i read is around 3 m2, so this big improvement is because use the composites on Su-35S. Maybe is not big difference here on this thing comparing with Su-57

https://translate.googleusercontent….0AxKMgp5-GoJnQ

“When creating both combat and civil aircraft, the proportion of composite materials is constantly increasing. For example, 70% of the fifth generation fighter’s washed surface is carbon fiber. Composites greatly facilitate the weight of the structure, improve aerodynamics and allow to drastically reduce the visibility of the combat vehicle for radar.

Experts say that on the radar display of the fifth generation fighter, thanks to non-metallic coatings, no more than a bird.”

1 month later they add a metallic coating since these measurements above or based on non-metallic coatings https://www.defenseforces.com/2019/0…ealth-coating/

“It doubles radar wave absorption and reduces the aircraft cockpit’s radar signature by 30% Currently, the coating is applied to the canopy of T-50 (Su-57 aircraft since August 2017), Su-30, Su-34, Su-35, MiG-29K and Tu-160 planes,” Rostec said.

The coating is made of metal oxide layers 70-90 nm thick. In addition to reducing visibility to enemy radars, it protects the pilot during the flight from the impact of ultraviolet, thermal and other negative factors, Rostec stressed.”

RCS figures can change F-35 was considered to have an RCS of a golf ball and next thing you know General Hostage says it has more stealth than the F-35. I will wait on the final figure but the patent more than likely reflects on overall RCS and the bird RCS might reflect on the front side for now.

[USER=”77292″]LMFS[/USER]

The F-22 had a 3rd gen radar for 2 years until getting it replaced with 4th gen GaAS, the F-35 was considered to have 1200 modules before getting 1,600+ modules. I don’t know if I should laugh or cry if the module count and same based AESAs will be mass produced( I will let the 1st 12 slide to have the old radars) but if they are than starting the SU-57 project is completely meaningless and they could have saved their money not starting this project at all.

http://www.promweekly.ru/archive/kret/KRET_4-2017.pdf

”

In the aircraft industry a role of composites is increasing, a sixth-generation aircraft will be possibly designed with use of the composite materials. On-board radio electronic equipment is being improved. Now the transmission power of the transceiver module of the active phased array antenna is 5–7 watts. After switching to the use of gallium nitride in microwave transmitters, the power can increase to 20 watts. Accordingly, the performance parameters of the radar will improve, and its dimensions will decrease. On-board computer technology is also being improved, despite the fact that we have

a rather difficult situation with the element base. In the microelectronics area we are still behind. The task was set to ensure import substitution, to switch to all domestic elements. We switch… losing in terms of dimensions.”

Not to be an obnoxious a$$hole but give me a reason why I should trust you over a KRET official that said we have switched to GaN? The reason I believe the SU-57 would have this is that I consider it a high priority aircraft over the rest of their aircraft industry. F-22 and F-35s had either replaced their modules or added more modules and if your telling me that after all these years they are still planning to mass produce the old **** avionics, and regarding the possible RCS of the SU-57 this project should have never been started in the 1st place. 2014 GaN modules from Rostec were introduced than at the end of 2014 Himalayas was added, Khibiny-M was tested in 2016 Syria and May 2018 tarantula was added the 3 high lighted EW products that were planned to have them were put on after 2014 majority of users that disagreed with this majorly seem to be from f-16.net but looking at the orlan-10 drone the jamming capabilities in terms of range were increased 3.5 times meaning no increase to antenna size which leaves the choice to better module capabilities.

If the same avionics remain than the aircraft better have a better RCS than either the F-22 or F-35 which is highly doubtful the only way this aircraft can get any better is having its MMICs replaced and since your telling me they will have the same old crap than it will be better to just abandon the whole project and use those funds for the mig-41 instead considering the amount of time. And if you want to know why I consider the ROFAR technology as you say a silver bullet and others say otherworldly I will give a grade school explanation of why I consider both of these things as possibly true. Imagine seeing a 1m2 target from 400kms away but with photonics (if the Chinese source is correct) you can be able to see a .01m2 target from 400kms away instead. RCS is measured in decibels the noise floor prevents me from seeing a target smaller than 1m2 but if that noise was a little bigger than the noise floor, than the noise or RCS can be found. Lower it 100 times more(according to Chinese source) or -20 decibels the feint signal can be better heard without the noise floor interference. And next imagine EW mmics not being able to suppress ROFAR’s radar but ROFARs EW systems can in return suppress the opposing targets radar, than yes I have the right to consider these capabilities to that of a silver bullet or otherworldly if they are indeed true. If your sticking with the GaAS AESA idea for mass production than those better be used to replace the radars on the SU-35s if they will replace them with ROFAR in 10 years because they are on a limited budget and I doubt they like to waste money especially starting this project without any good results.

i dont understand if you want tell, secret behind reduction of RCS on Su-35S is the coat. I do not think that. It would be easy make like this to F-15 for example…and they did not make.

************

Its interesting this article from today. It tells, it had some internal change on the Su-57. About which changes is talking? It seems big change.

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3968914

The cost of the contract, estimated at 160-170 billion rubles, is reduced not only because of decisions to change the internal layout of the Su-57 and the unification of technical solutions, but also because production has become mass-produced, explains the source: military contracts due to low (3-5%) profitability and so will not work, but it guarantees the capacity utilization of the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft factory for a decade.

Right so let’s summarize.

1.) Borisov did not say that. He said Su-35 was good enough for now, they could wait for Su-57.

2.) The quote about the Su-35 being “almost as good” as the Su-57 if from the freaking author of the article. In other words, it is a meaningless statement by someone who has nothing to do with the program.
The same author quotes – “И это значит, что массовый выпуск Су-57 мы не увидим, скорее всего, никогда.”. That mass production of the Su-57 will never happen. As we have just seen, that is laughably untrue, and reflects on the author as a whole.

I am very interested however why you selectively chose to quote that – but not other stuff from the article that does not fit your narrative:
“В некоторой степени Су-35 не уступают F-35 и F-22 – самолетам пятого поколения, считает депутат.” Su-35 matches F-22/35 in many ways. Hehehehe, accurate, right?

3.) Your quote about a FORMER pilot (AKA, one who does not have any experience with Su-57) is that they are similar in regards to engines.
Which they are. Duh. That is a no brainer.

4.) try not posting bull**** narrative articles, and you will get a non-bull**** response.

If you like the quote where russian officials tell Su-35S is so good than F-35/F-22 ( Gutenev i think), is perfect and nice, because on this way they are telling Su-35 S is only slighty superior to Su-57, otherwise Su-57 would be miles aways from F-35/F-22 performance, and i do not think a person is so stupid about believe this.

Not man, you are confused about words of Krasnoperov, read again….

And I think that this is not the last engine, they will continue to be developed in terms of increasing the range of its flight, ”said former instructor pilot, Air Force Major Andrei Krasnoperov, to the VIEW of the VIEW. Such a “class 4 ++” aircraft lacks one plus to complete invisibility for radar, the expert notes.

The fact that the characteristics of the Su-57 are very similar to the Su-35, especially on the engine, is understandable, but the development of the new engine is under way, and it will appear. This all comes not immediately and, of course, requires expenses, ”the pilot emphasizes. In the meantime, “in order to leave our country’s defense capability at the required level, it is necessary to purchase those planes that are and that are reliable – this applies primarily to the Su-35,” emphasizes Krasnoperov. We add that this raises the question – why the bet on the Su-35 was not made earlier?

it is very clear he tells, ALL characteristics of the Su-57 and Su-35 very similar, and on engine more.

But be happy man, do not suffer.:rolleyes:

You seem the KGB twin.

[USER=”76365″]RALL[/USER]
some comments below

Based on catalogue info I would say OLS-35 is IIR (TV, IR and TV+IR video claimed)

Yes i know this catalogue info.

https://defenseissues.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/qrkpwi.jpg

But IMO is not Imaging Infrared, it is TV image only. Similar than TV image Rafale has beside its IRST. With this you can identify somebody on day, using tv image but not on night. Do you have some information more clear about OLS-35??

[USER=”64730″]Marcellogo[/USER]
I am not sure the scale economies work for state controlled Russian MIC the same as we are used to. The main reason a company can produce cheaper the more units they manufacture is the spread-out of non-recurring costs. But if the state needs the company to produce some equipment which is of national interest and is ready to pay, subsidise or in any way support the upfront costs of for instance a new production line which is necessary, then cost savings due to amounts could be in turn smaller than in a 100% private enterprise.

[USER=”76365″]RALL[/USER]
The most obvious difference between Su-57 and previous Russian planes that could be an important cost driver is the AESA radar and the airframe with high proportion of composites and RAM/RAS. Izd. 117 should be a bit more expensive than 117S too. If they have managed to reach the prices of the Su-35 despite them, then it is a big success. I am still a bit sceptic about that price but maybe it is real. We did not have great details about previous Su-30 and Su-35 contracts either.

As to the Izd. 30, it is possible that basic performance has been confirmed and hence it supports further progress of the program. But I think it is not as critical as we may think. Izd. 117S is pretty much an export product, so I would not be surprised if domestic Su-35 could use, or in fact are already using, Izd. 117 without Russians making it public. If that was the case, producing Su-57s and installing the first stage engine on them until the second stage one is ready would not be a big issue, since the used units could go to the Su-35’s fleet. I am not aware of any fundamental difference between the 117 and 117S that would prevent its installation on the Su-35 and given the plane itself is to a great extent an insurance against the failure of Su-57, it would make sense to use it to support the development of its new engines too.

Yes, some sensors should be more expensive than sensors on previous Su-35S. Not only the Aesa radar, but the OLS-50 too, because this sensor i think will be IIR than previous OLS-35 is IR only. But Pesa from Su-35 S is a good Pesa, we do not know how will be new Aesa radar for Su-57 and if its features will be a lot more better than Irbis E or only marginal better. You need think, it will be the first Aesa radar on a Fighter in Russia. Aesa radars are better than Pesa, but you need a lot of job on it for take the best features.

Su-57 will have composites, but i read time ago Su-35 S have many composites in his airframe too, for to reduce and improve its RCS. You think Su-27 is around 10-15 m2 and Su-35 S i read is around 3 m2, so this big improvement is because use the composites on Su-35S. Maybe is not big difference here on this thing comparing with Su-57.

Iz30 should be very much expensive than current engine, and engine from Su-35S. Maybe for this is important make some normal contract for 60-70 fighters for reduce overal prices, because contract for 16 units until 2028 really is very poor.

When they talk about costs of the fighter, IMO they talk about cost per unit excluded (Research+Development). If you include R+D on the costs of each unit, Su-57 will be very very much expensive than Su-35S.

Although it is good news for Su-57 proyect, Imo they need other partner and this movement maybe is a political movement from Putin for to attract to Erdogan to the proyect. On this moment Turkey is miles away from F-35 and they need other option, and it is not more options than Su-57 and officials from russia told they can to share R+D with Turkey. Just what they denied time ago to the Indians; very strange.