Ben.The flame wars are not really politically inspired on GD anymore, but more ad persona. I mean, we used to have the usual us-eu, india-pakistan flame wars but now it suddenly is between a couple of individual members (most of them from the UK and the US).
Ben.looks cool. 🙂
Ben.The nazi’s are not Germany, just like the Torries are not the UK. Leon Degrelle was a phrancophone right wing Belgian, but I don’t see your connection with the Holocaust. I mean, every leader in Europe could have been a possible ally of the nazi’s. The nazi’s also counted on local authorities, in Poland, Russia, Hungary. Most of the times they were immediatelly prepared to cooperate. In fact, Jews had more chances of surviving in Germany than in Eastern-Europe. The nazi’s were most certainly to blame for the Holocaust, but 6 million Jews killed in such a way can not be explained by one political party or ideology, even if it controlled the state.
Ben.Transat,
1. There’s no need for feeling guilty. It’s an easy answer to blame Germany for WWII and the Holocaust while it’s actually the western civilisation which failed as a whole in 1940! Romania, Vichy France, the Netherlands even the isle of Jersey (UK) they all collaborated with the nazi’s so they should feel guilty as well. (and they were not “forced”, in fact, the SS learned a lot from the Romanians in killing Jews on mass scale).
Not bringing up this subject is impossible. The Holocaust is not just a fact which we can forget, because it reshaped the world. 20 million people died in WWI, 6 of 18 million Jews were killed in a way which would not have been possible without several industrial revolutions.
2. If you want to prevent this from happening again, lessons should be learned from it. Philisophers, Political scientists, Sociologist, Historians … each of them has a mission and that is to see such things never happen again.
3. Could Holocaust have happened in another country, besides Germany? Most certainly. In France, anti-semitism was even more widespread during the XIXth Century. Same in Russia and the rest of continental Europe. The reason why Germany started Holocaust is only for historical, not psychological reasons (at least not in the broad sence of the word). Germans are not more evil than French, British. The Holocaust is not a burdon upon Germany alone, but upon Europe as a whole. Anti-judaïsm and anti-semitism existed long before WWII.
Ben.It’s funny that we in America actually supported Hitler’s movement early on to keep tabs on the communists in Europe.
Not only in the US. Also in France, UK, Belgium, Netherlands.
Ben.The queen desires you to use some gentle
entertainment to Laertes before you fall to play.
da main bitch desires yous to use some gentleentertainment to laertes before yous fall to play.
——-
e’s large, and scant of breaf.here, amlet, take my napkin, rub thy brows;the main bitch carouses to thy fortune, amlet.
———
Ben.I found the Ali G Translator. LOL
Look what he makes of Shakespeare’s Hamlet, revised edition 2005 😀
ow all occasions do inform against me,and spur my dull revenge! wot is a geeza,if is chief wicked and market of is timebe but to go to me julie and feed? a mr biggy, no more.sure, he dat made us wiv such massiv cukabillyurse,looking before and afta, gave us notthat capability and Jackie Chan-like reasonto fust in us unused. now, whetha it bebestial oblivion, or some cravun scrupleof thinkin too precisely on da event,a thought which, quarter’d, af but one part wisdomand eva three parts coward, i do not know
whereon da numbers cannot try da cause,which is not tomb enough and continentto ide da slain? o, from dis time forf,my thoughts be bloody, or be nothin worf!
Ben.Still I do think the personalities of Hitler and Stalin were crucial for WWII. I give you one example. The NSDAP was able to get so much influence thanks to the SturmAbteilUng, the SA. In the 1930s the SA was very popular among youngsters, and at some point it even replaced the regular police. However, it was Hitler who decided that the SA was becoming so powerfull that at one point, it could become a threat to the Fuhrer himself. So he replaced the SA with his own personal guards, the SS and let their leader be shot in a prison (on the grounds of treason). Had Hitler not done that, and stuck to the SA-guidelines, the SA would probably have started a revolution on its own in the 1930s. The Wehrmacht-generals (which did not like the SA) would have taken up arms against SA in the 1930s, a civil war would break out, and Germany would be so weakened it would not be able to attack Poland. End of WWII.
Ben.I do think those are very important questions Snaps. As a historian (or when I graduate) I think our job is more than collecting “facts” and write papers/books with footnotes. If you really want to learn something from history you should try to look at how it could have been otherwise. The chances of an evil maniac like Hitler becoming once again chancellor of Germany are slim, but what it it was not all about Hitler but mass hysteria. Something very similar today. Maybe it will not happen in Germany, but the Netherlands for example are going through a major crisis. Not like the 1930s, but still, frightening enough to think about it. If you really want to understand it all you should always keep the possibility open that one small event can change the course of history. I would probably be a better philosopher than a historian, but I really believe these are the questions that need to be asked, not always “how many”, “when exactly”, “with whom” but simply “what if …”
Ben.Interresting question. Would WWII have happened? I mean, the conditions would have been the same, treaty of Versailles, economic depression, anti-semitism (which existed lang before Hitler, 19th century). Hitler was not solely responsible for WWII and the Holocaust, we all know that, but if it wasn’t of him, the NSDAP would not have won the elections, and more conservative nationalists would have formed a gov’t. (Hitler was more a revolutionary nationalist than a conservative IMHO). Maybe there would have been war, but I doubt a Holocaust would be possible without the whole NSDAP-ideology. Hitler didn’t stand alone, he didn’t act alone. He didn’t even consider himself to be the leader of Germany, he WAS Germany. More conservative leaders (Hindenburg for example) have a totally different approach. They want to stand above the people, not idenity themselves with it.
So no, I don’t think WWII would have happened, or not on the same scale at least. And certainly no Holocaust.
Ben.Yeah but what do you expect the EU to do? I mean, if people are too lazy to vote (which happens for all elections), this is not due lack of enthousiasm for the EU. I brought up US history because it’s the first time the people are asked – in human history – what THEY think about the constitution. I’m not frustrated, you can bring up as many anti-EU threads as you wish, it doesn’t change my (nor your) opinion. I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say: is the EU undemocratic, obviously not, otherwise there wouldn’t be a referendum. So is it too democratic, too democratic people are losing enthousiasm.
Ben.My dear Sauron
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
LOL LOL LOL
–choke–
Yeah, just like with presidential US Elections Sauron.
Look, most people don’t care about elections anyway. In Belgium people who are fed up with elections tend to vote extremist parties. Would that be so much better?
Apart from that, how many Americans were able to vote on the US Constitution back in 1783? Times have changed. Well, so far, the EU is the only institution where constitutional matters are discussed through a referendum and not just by the parliamant or a conseil constitutionelle.
If people in Spain were really that anti-EU, don’t you think they would have voted against it massively? Not voting in free and fair elections means you agree with the current policy of the gov’t, in this case the social-democratic coalition of PM Zapatero. He’s quite pro-EU. Most people don’t hate the EU, they don’t love it either. However, in the long run, the EU has proven and will be very usefull. Back in 1776 few Americans wanted to became part of the “federation”, they very much favoured a confederal model. Now, has the US been as succes so far or not?
Another victory for the Sauron-bash-anti-EU machine. Thumbs up!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Gee Sauron, before you form an opinion try to think a bit further. If you don’t want to make a complete fool out of yourself use articles from FOX. I mean, this BBC article is actually just saying what I say. :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: This is sooooo funny.
Ben.How do you pronounce potato? American or English way 😀
Tomato
Ben.Well, I’m not a professor – yet ;). It took me two days to write a 10 page paper. And I had an advantage over the rest of the class, as I’m combining studies history and international relations. Most of my fellow history students know **** on contemporary politics.
Ben.He’s no neo-con. Really, he’s a very intelligent and reasonable man. I had a couple of discussions with him. :diablo: “Well said, Ben” I have seen few professors/intellectuals who actually wanted to spend their time talking to students.
I don’t agree on everything he says, especially the fact that he also uses the term old and new europe. But I got to know American mind better writing a paper for him. There’s some truth in it, and then there’s some BS. On both sides of the pond.
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