Bayar3 things you need to know
(1) TUSAS Engine Industries has been producing the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine under licence since the 1980’s;
(2) Turkey has indigenous turbo-fan engine technology but it is not yet fuel-efficient for competitive commercial use (c.f. with military use). The TJ-90 and the Kale 3500
(3) Turkey has several partnerships which will make Turkey’s turbo-fan engine technology fuel-efficient: one with Rolls Royce (UK), Ivchenko-Progress (Ukraine) and ofcourse Russia. Kale’s partnership with Rolls-Royce has matured and the Joint-Venture is tendering for the TF-X engine. See http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art…_x-engine.htmlThat is the assembly of engines not the construction of engines.
If Turkey annoys any of the suppliers of engines, they can and would be cut off.
Read the above sources in particular what GE Aviation says about its partnership with TEI.
Turkey has a production facility for F110 engines as part of the F-16 deal approved by US Congress back in 1980’s
BayarAnd your missing the point between Technology Transfer as a condition precedent for an arms sale and components manufacturing and assembly.
I am telling you Turkey does not make any off-the-shelf purchases of arms anymore unless there is significant ToT.
I’ll give you another example:
More recently the US Senate approved Sikorsky to transfer significant IP to Turkish Aerospace Industries to licence produce 109 Sikorsky S70i Blackhawks as the TAI T70 in Turkey.
T70 – UTILITY HELICOPTER PROGRAM
https://www.tai.com.tr/en/project/turkish-utility-helicopterTurkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) newly signed related agreements on 21st February 2014 with TAI as Prime Contractor, Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. as Major Subcontractor and other key Turkish aerospace contractors that license Turkey’s aerospace industry to manufacture 109 T70 helicopters (Turkish variants of Sikorsky’s S-70i™ International Black Hawk helicopter) for operation by the Turkish Governmental Bodies.
In turn, the Turkish aerospace industry will assemble 109 T70 helicopters for Sikorsky. The agreements would authorize the transfer of certain manufacturing technology to Turkish industry and provide for the potential to produce up to a total of 600 total aircraft, including both T70 units for Turkish indigenous use and S-70i™ aircraft for export over the next 30 years. Under the program, TAI is the prime contractor for T70 licensed production and assembly in Turkey for multi-mission use by the Turkish government.
From the technology gained from the T70 licence production program Turkish Aerospace Industries developed the TAI T-625 Utility Helicopter.
The same occurred with Agusta-Westland AW149 Attack Helicopter. Turkey purchased the IP and developed it further to create the T-129 ATAK.
Turkey sought the same in respect of the PAC-3 which Washington refused. Then Turkey opted for the ASTER 30-SAMP/T with ToT but this too was refused. Then China and Russia seized the moment and offered Turkey full technology transfer. Turkey opted for the S-400. This is Turkey’s modus operandi now. ToT.
BayarRight from GE Aviation itself:
GE and TAI Extend Tusas Engine Industries, Inc. Joint Venture for Another 25 Years
http://www.geaviation.com/press-release/services/ge-and-tai-extend-tusas-engine-industries-inc-joint-venture-another-25-years
January 29, 2010ANKARA, Turkey — GE Aviation has renewed the Tusas Engine Industries, Inc. (TEI) joint venture with Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) for another 25 years. Under this agreement, TEI will continue to provide critical parts for commercial, military and marine engines through 2035, with TAI retaining a majority ownership in the joint venture.
“We are pleased to extend this valued relationship,” said Jean Lydon-Rodgers, Vice President and General Manager of GE Aviation Military Systems. “Our involvement with TEI goes far beyond parts. Development of the Turkiye Technology Center in Istanbul, expansion into the Maintenance Repair and Overhaul arena, plus design and manufacturing of some of our most critical parts, underscores the growing scope of value TEI provides.”
GE Aviation’s long-standing relationship with TEI began in 1985 with the establishment of a facility for production of F110 engines that power F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force. TEI now produces more than 560 different engine parts.
Recently, TEI launched parts manufacturing efforts for the GEnx, which powers both the Boeing 747-8 and Boeing 787 Dreamliner. More than 1,000 GEnx engines are on order. TEI has also been selected to provide parts for the GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team’s F136 engine for the Joint Strike Fighter program, and is the only GE supplier to produce “blisk spools,” a combination of blades and disks cast into a single forging for significant weight and durability advantages. TEI is also a recipient of GE Aviation’s prestigious Brian H. Rowe Research & Development award for work on the J85 Ejector System.
Since its entry into the Turkish market in 1948 as the first foreign industrial investor, GE has steadily continued its growth through investments in technology and services. Today, GE is a leading player in finance, energy, consumer & industrial products, water technologies, media and engineering fields. GE employs 500 people in Turkey, and more than 18,000 employees through its joint ventures. GE Aviation’s engines power the majority of fighters, cargo aircraft, helicopters and ships in the Turkish Armed Forces inventory, including F-16s, Black Hawks and Frigates. GE Aviation and CFM International also power more than 400 civil aircraft in Turkey.
GE Aviation, an operating unit of GE (NYSE: GE), is a world-leading provider of jet engines, components and integrated systems for commercial and military aircraft. GE Aviation has a global service network to support these offerings.
Next.
BayarI’ll provide more sources to clarify all your assumptions:
Turkey’s F-16 program goes far beyond merely assembling components produced in the United States. U.S. firms are providing Turkey with technology, training, and financing to establish a foothold in the major aspects of military aerospace production. Towards that end, General Electric helped create Tusas Engine Industries, a Turkish-American joint stock company which manufactures engine parts and assembles the F110-GE-100 engine for the TAI F-16 production line. Lockheed Martin owns a 49% share in MIKES, a Turkish firm that produces the ALQ-178-V5 radar and electronic countermeasures systems used on the F-16. And Litton is collaborating with the Turkish firm Aselsan to build F-16 components.
Producing an engine under license (you intentionally claim “assembly” to support your argument despite me providing ample evidence including the original companies saying “production”) means you will not give 2 F*cks during a wartime situation to re-activate those lines.
I know for a fact that Turkey insisted on Licensed production of the engines back in the 1980’s or Turkey would not purchase 200+ F-16’s.
Go and re-read what GE Aviation says at: https://www.geaviation.com/press-release/services/ge-and-tai-extend-tusas-engine-industries-inc-joint-venture-another-25-years
BayarPeeD
@Bayar
Your link is good and it’s a good to have capability to manufacture spools blinks of the cold end. Does that mean that they produce them for the F100 or does this mean that they produce blisks/spools for a foreign engine manufacturer, or does this mean they have a facility that has demonstrated this capability? I doubt any F100 versions use blisks so, no, this has nothing to do with Turkey producing F100 or any engines. Maybe PW has given them the licence to produce spools for the F100? Possible but this is a rather easy bit in the huge puzzle of a turbofan engine of F100 class.
Look, Turkey is certainly a industrialized country and they have achieved quite much but why do you think they could produce a F100? USA, UK, Russia and France are the only countries in the world who could produce it and except for Russia and some extend France, the others have outsourced component production to aboard (some also to Turkey).
You want something that is one of the hardest task in technology in general and expect Turkey to have catch up to these leading countries with at least 50 years each experience in that field? You demand miracles, be happy if Turkey “produces” 20% of the F100 and 5% of the critical parts (and this is nothing to be ashamed of).Your problem are such false impressions. In general the Turkish defense industry which is existing in your mind is what is to happen in 2019, 2021. This is no offense, try to be more critical to get a clearer picture.
Please see below regarding Turkish license production of F110 engines.
If you think you guys know better than GE Aviation itself and TUSAS Engine Industries then I am wasting my time here. But this is not me saying this but GE Aviation and TUSAS Engine Industries. I know it may be hard for you guys to fathom but Turkey has had this technology since the 1980’s but no one has given it close attention. It is for this reason that I stated many times on this site that the TF-X will fly along with many other aerial platforms.
GE Aviation’s long-standing relationship with TEI began in 1985 with the establishment of a facility for production of F110 engines that power F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force.
Assembly and testing of 271 engines under PO I and PO II Programs and 42 engines under PO IV Program were completed for the F100 engines available in the inventory of Turkish Armed Force.
Assembly and testing of 10 EA F110 engines available in the inventory of Oman Air Force were also completed.
In addition to assembly at GE’s facilities, F110 engines are currently being assembled by Tusas Engine Industries in Turkey). Each month, more than 30,000 hours are flown by F110 – powered fighters.
See http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/f110.htm
The engine is also license-built by Turkish Aerospace Industries.
See “General Electric F110”, Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, McBrewster John, VDM Publishing, 5 Dec. 2010 – Technology & Engineering, Page 64
Electronic copy accessible at https://books.google.com.au/books/about/General_Electric_F110.html?id=DluMuQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
TEI produced and delivered its first engine and engine parts in 1987, and since then, it has transferred manufacturing, assembly and testing technology of aircraft engine parts and modules to our country and also proved its success in global markets with its reliable, high quality production that meets international standards. See http://tei.com.tr/detay/general-information
BayarUS now urges parties to talk and de-escalate situation: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/erdogan-rejects-arab-demands-turkish-troops-stay-qatar-48263019
Someone just didnt factor in Iran helping Turkey against GCC it seems. Mr. Trump is more incompetent than Obama. What happened to Henry Kissinger type US Statesmen.
BayarAnd as I suspected Turkey is using 121 civilian cargo aircraft to act as an air bridge between Qatar & Turkey via Iranian airspace.
“Turkey ‘conducted world’s biggest airlift operation in two weeks’ during Gulf rift, economy minister says
DAILY SABAH, ISTANBUL, Published 18 hours ago
Turkey has sent a total of 121 cargo planes to Qatar since an economic blockade against the Gulf country was imposed by its neighbors, making it the world’s biggest airlift operation, Turkish Economy Minister Nihat Zeybekçi said Sunday.
“We have conducted the world’s biggest airlift operation in two weeks. As of 12 AM last night 121 planes were sent [to Qatar], then a ship was followed by seven trucks. After that, one more ship sailed off while flights continue,” Zeybekçi said.
Zeybekçi went on to say that conflicts have changed their nature in the modern period.
“Wars have gone to other dimensions. Perhaps, the most honorable ones are the economic wars. So we absolutely have to win the economic war,” the Turkish economy minister said.
Zeybekçi also noted that Turkey’s cultural geography, which spreads across Balkans, Caucasus, North Africa, and Iraq and Syria, has made the country the most generous country in regards to humanitarian support.
“I wish Muslim communities had no need for donations and there were not so many people in need in countries where the population is under oppression,” he said, adding that strong and sound Turkish economy allows the country to provide humanitarian aid.
Zeybekci expressed confidence that “these problems among brothers” would soon be sorted out through a dialogue.
Starting from June 5, Bahrain, Comoros, Egypt, Maldives, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen’s internationally backed government and one of Libya’s three governments have cut off diplomatic ties with Qatar over accusations that the Gulf nation funds militant groups – charges Doha calls baseless.
Several other Muslim nations also downgraded their diplomatic ties with Qatar.
Since the beginning of the economic blockade of Qatar, Turkey has been sending tons of fruit, vegetables and other foodstuffs to the Gulf state.
BayarAny attack on Qatar by the GCC countries would automatically bring Iran into the picture and force Turkey to ally with Iran.
Qatar and Iran share the South Pars / North Dome Gas-Condensate field which everyone is after. Both Iran and Qatar want to export such gas to Europe via Turkey. Iran would not allow South Pars to fall into GCC hands.
If and when Qatar is attacked Turkey will have access to Iranian bases. Turkey has stationed F-16’s in Iran before when Turkey obtained consent from Tehran to attack PEJAK/PKK.
As for how Turkey will deploy to Qatar-
Many are discounting Turkish Airlines & Qatar Airlines Aircraft for troop deployment via Iranian Airspace.
As for heavy equipment many on this forum are discounting the role that the Turkish Navy will play.
Some Turkish Naval Assets are already in the Persian Gulf: MILGEM Class Corvettes and G-class frigates. Both have Area Air Defence capabilities.
2 x Bayrakatar Class LST’s will also be on their way soon. These vessels can carry many MBT’s, APC’s and other heavy equipment. TCG Inskendurun can also be deployed.
Naval assets can be used for transporting heavy equipment directly from Turkey to Qatar
OR
Turkey can create a sea bridge between Iran & Qatar. Turkey’s 3rd Army would move to a Port in Iran and transfer the equipment back and fourth to Qatar from Iranian ports.
Turkey has been conducting simulations of a beach landing similar to Qatar for sometime now.
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A great video on the TCG Bayraktar class LST’s of the Turkish Navy
And as launched
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BayarPerhaps you should go through this website before commenting on the F100- https://www.tei.com.tr/detay/blisk-and-spool-manufacturing
And also http://www.roketsan.com.tr/en/
BayarYou make statements but do not provide any sources to back them up nor do you state what capabilities Turkey does not have or what Turkish platforms the Turks have not commissioned into the inventory. E.g. The T-129 Attack Helicopter including all its weapons systems and sub-systems are operational, Turkish Corvettes/Frigates, LST’s etc are operational, its ballistic missiles are operational, its air2ground precision strike weapons are operational, Armed MALE class UCAV’s are operational etc etc
You then go onto to assert how glorious Iran is and cite its Short Range Air Defense Systems as an example.
Well i hate to break it to you but Turkey has indigenous Low and Medium Air Defense Systems of its own.
http://www.roketsan.com.tr/en/urunler-hizmetler/hava-sistemleri/orta-irtifa-hava-savunma-fuze-sistemi-fuzesi-oihsfs-fuzesi/
http://www.roketsan.com.tr/en/urunler-hizmetler/hava-sistemleri/alcak-irtifa-hava-savunma-fuze-sistemi-fuzesi-aihsfs-fuzesi/
BayarJSR, those are completely ineffective bases. what can those bases do now?
At the least they can extend the range of Turkey’s Short and Medium range Ballistic Missiles arsenal.
They can open new fronts during a war.
They can control sea lines of communication into and out of the Mediterranean Sea and Persian Gulf.
They can also be used for signals intelligence.
Turkey does not know anything to play any game. All games it play blows up on its face. and you fail to realize that Russia lost two years fighting Turkish back groups in the North. Turkey should have joined Russia in begining so everyone could concentrate on rebels fighting in south or complete no flyzone for rest of middleeast.
The very fact that the Kurds have no independent Kurdish State in Syria despite US and European support shows Turkey’s success. The very fact that Turkey has delayed Russia for 2 years using proxies alone supports my statement.
Turkey not engaging in a full scale war shows that Turkey is being very strategic rather than chest thumping. And I can assure it won’t engage in any full-scale war for the foreseeable future. The AKP have only been in power for a decade and they have repaid Turkey’s debt to the IMF, quadtrippled Turkey’s GDP from $200 billion (GDP(PPP)) to $1.6 Trillion (GDP(PPP)) and transformed the Turkish Armed Forces from a force heavily reliant on Western Arms and munitions to a largely locally supplied Armed Force that has bases in 5 countries. Turkey is already positioned to become an energy hub and important oil and gas supplier for Europe. The transit fees alone will close Turkey’s account deficit.
Above-all, Turkey now has a vision and an action plan. Its aim is to create new export markets in Africa and China (under the Silk Road initiative) thereby reducing its reliance and dependence on the Western economies and become one of the Top 5 economies in the world within 40 years at most. New export markets not only means economic growth but it also means new geo-strategic interests and allies. Turkey no longer puts all its eggs into one basket (the West). Turkey is equidistant to everyone and has its own interests at the epicenter of its foreign policy. This is how Turkey will get ahead of all the others in the Middle East especially the Arab countries. Not through empty rhetoric, in-fighting, chest thumping or blockading neighbors but thinking about and planning for the future.
BayarYou forgot Ivchenko-Progress of Ukraine. They have a huge range of Turbo-fans that do the job. See http://ivchenko-progress.com/?page_id=137&lang=en
Bayar“Russian Military Signs Ceasefire Deal With Government of Syrian Latakia Province”: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201706241054935696-russian-military-ceasefire-deal/
BayarOnly three countries have jet engine tech. to build top level engines U.S., Russia and France.
Now none of those are stupid so how will Turkey build fighter not hampered by engines like China is with without engine none of those three will give it.
3 things you need to know
(1) TUSAS Engine Industries has been producing the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine under licence since the 1980’s;
(2) Turkey has indigenous turbo-fan engine technology but it is not yet fuel-efficient for competitive commercial use (c.f. with military use). The TJ-90 and the Kale 3500
(3) Turkey has several partnerships which will make Turkey’s turbo-fan engine technology fuel-efficient: one with Rolls Royce (UK), Ivchenko-Progress (Ukraine) and ofcourse Russia. Kale’s partnership with Rolls-Royce has matured and the Joint-Venture is tendering for the TF-X engine. See http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/183461/rolls_royce%2C-kale-joint-venture-to-develop-tf_x-engine.html
BayarJSR, I said this before and I’ll say it now you have zero knowledge about Turkey and are relying on nationalistic Arab media for your information.
Turkey does not need a war or military might to rule that region. It’s intelligence networks have a great grasp on the region. It has ruled the Middle East for in excess of 700 years and knows who hates who, who controls what etc. The Middle East essentially is still part of a feudal hierarchy that transcends national borders. Turkey merely needs to play chess with those feudal leaders and flood them with small arms. They will do the rest. You play down Turkey’s military but fail to realise the state of affairs in Syria and learn from the mistakes. Turkey is still standing and the Turks are going about their normal lives. We cannot say the same for Syria. All the countries you mention above in the Middle East are not stable internally to look externally.
You dismiss Turkey as irrelevant but fail to realise that the Turks have many bases in the region:
Mogadishu, Somalia
North Cyprus
Dijibouti
Bashiqa, Iraq
Syria
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