It will be U,S’ loss really not India’s. The only worry for India is the Tejas’ programme which is dependent on U.S engines.

The best thing for India is to coproduce an engine with a non-US engine maker while it develops its own. Otherwise the US will use all the leverage it has over it. You guys should stay clear of the F-16 “F-21” and opt for the Su-57.

Turkey took this leverage away from the US by planning everything around US suppliers because they are at the end of the day hostage to the lobby groups in US Congress.

Not sure why US is proposing an alternate as S-400 is a signed deal.

US should get over the illusion that it can dictate what India can and must buy for its genuine defence need from any nation it chooses to much less from Russia which who she shares a strategic partnership since the 50’s

The same reason they did it to Turkey, Saudi Arabia & Qatar. Turkey is due to receive its S-400’s in July and now the US is cancelling Turkey’s participation in the F-35 and imposing CAATSA sanctions on its so-called NATO ally. What is ironic is that NASA can still trade with Russia. LOL

The US does not want to loose its arms markets and hence will not shy away from threatening nations with sanctions etc in order to get its way.

Great Bayar, bring it over to the Turkey thread and explain all about it there. Doesn’t belong here for several reasons:
Turkey most likely won’t be part of the F-35 program after this summer if there isn’t a reversal on the S-400. Therefore the value of this discussion is moot.

Every thread doesn’t need to be subjected to a barrage about Turkey’s aerospace ambitions, their planned procurement represents roughly 3% of the global F-35 market, so this discussion shouldn’t be dominating the F-35 thread.

Thanks

I don’t want to pollute my Turkish Aerospace thread with the F-35 saga…

As the Turkish President said today: “instead of threatening Turkey for the past 2 years why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and cancel Turkey’s participation in the JSF program- we said that Turkey will not under any circumstances rescind the contract with Russia so why don’t you take concrete steps and stop wasting time”.

So I ask too- why just empty threats for the past 2 years and no concrete steps? What is Washington scared of? Hurry up and kick Turkey out of the program.

It seems like Uncle Sam is now showing the carrot to India regarding the S-400…

US says working with India to offer alternative to Russian S-400 missile defence system

https://www.thestatesman.com/world/us-working-india-offer-alternative-russian-s-400-missile-defence-system-1502741376.html

Brushing aside the threat of American sanctions, India in October last year signed the much-anticipated S-400 long-range surface-to-air missile defence system deal with Russia.

SNS Web | New Delhi | March 28, 2019 10:53 am
The US is working with India to offer an alternative to the Russian S-400 Triumf missile defence system, according to Assistant Defence Secretary Randall Schriver, but he left open the possibility that Washington may not punish New Delhi over the $5.4 billion Moscow deal.

“I think it would be an unfortunate decision if they chose to pursue that”, he told the House of Representatives Armed Forces Committee on Wednesday in Washington during a hearing on US Military Activities in Indo-Pacific region.

“We are very keen to see them make an alternative choice” and “we’re working with them to provide potential alternatives”, he said.

The commander of the Indo-Pacific Command, Admiral Philip Davidson, also made a pitch for India to buy US defence equipment. “I continue to make the point with them that our interoperability and compatibility going forward will be advantaged with the purchase of US systems”, he said.

In a reference to the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), Schriver pointed out that there was a punitive US legislation “hanging over” the S-400 deal with Russia.

But he added, “We want to work through it because India is an emerging partnership for us”.

“The legislation”, Schriver said “is not designed to be an impediment in the growing strategic partnership we have with India. It’s designed for consequence to Russia.”

The 2017 law adopted with bi-partisan support as a response to Moscow’s involvement in US elections seeks to impose sanctions on buyers of Russian defence equipment.

Schriver was answering a question from Democratic Representative Seth Moulton, who asked how India’s purchase of S-400 and the lease of Russian nuclear submarines would impact India-US relations.

Schriver told him that the purchase of S-400 has “not gone to contract or completed”, but he did not touch on the $3 billion lease agreement India signed earlier this month for a Russian Akula class nuclear submarine.

Possible US alternatives to the Russian S-400 are the Lockheed Martin’s THAAD system (short for Terminal High Altitude Area Defense) and Raytheon’s Patriot system, although the three vary in capabilities and costs.

China’s challenge in the Indo-Pacific region and the US response to it dominated the hearings.

“The reemergence of great power competition – if not carefully managed – poses a challenge to the free and open order in the Indo-Pacific that underpins our continued peace and prosperity,” Schriver said.

Davidson said that “the vision of a free and open Indo-Pacific” was the unifying factor for India, Japan, Australia, France and New Zealand, which shared similar concepts.

The chair of the Armed Service Committee Adam Smith, a Democrat, and other legislators and US defence officials spoke of the importance of the growing ties between the two biggest democracies.

Smith noted that the Pacific command had been renamed Indo-Pacific with India in mind.

“The improvement of our relationship with the nation of India is one of the most positive developments in foreign relations in last several years”, he said. “I hope we can build and improve upon that”.

Concurring with him, Schriver said it was “a great example of a partnership that we’re investing a lot in”. He said the first 2+2 high-level meeting of the defence and foreign affairs heads of the two countries in September made “great strides in the defence relationship”.

Davidson called the signing of the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) a “breakthrough down at the operational level”.

India’s Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and then-Defence Secretary James Mattis of the US met in New Delhi for the first 2+2 meeting to enhance strategic cooperation between their countries. COMCASA was signed at the meeting.

Representative Mike Waltz, a Republican, asked, “Moving forward. what more can we do in our engagement with India and what more should we be doing and what more would you like to do and how can this body help”?

“We’re working to operationalise the COMCASA”, Davidson said. “It’s an IT (Information Technology) Agreement (Through) which we can do sharing and other things”.

“There’s an opportunity for us to share tactical fly away kits in an operational planning system that I think will advance our relationship on military to military relationship very, very well,” he said.

He said that India switching to US defence equipment would enhance interoperability and “allows us to get to training doctrine, tactical level coordination that’s really powerful”.

“While they very much want to protect their nonaligned policy, the tactical and technical capability we get out of like systems will really advance that relationship down in the military space”, he added.

In a written statement to the committee, Schriver said earlier, “Within South Asia, we are pursuing emerging partnerships with Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bangladesh, and the Maldives”.

“With India and Japan, the Malabar exercise affords an opportunity to increase our ability to operate trilaterally, including through real-time information sharing”, he said.

Brushing aside the threat of American sanctions, India in October last year signed the much-anticipated S-400 long-range surface-to-air missile defence system deal with Russia that is expected to bolster the defence preparedness of the country.

Under the more than $5 billion deal, Russia will supply five regiments of the highly-sophisticated missiles to India. These missiles will provide India umbrella coverage against any air-borne threats like fighter jets, missiles and UAVs.

The S-400 missile system, manufactured by Almaz-Antey, is capable of tracking and destroying hostile strategic bombers, jets, missiles and drones at a range of 380 km.

The Russian missile system is said to be the best in the world. China signed a deal with Russia in 2015 to buy six battalions of this missile system. Many other countries, including Saudi Arabia and Turkey, are also said to be negotiating with the Russian authorities to buy the system.

India has been negotiating the missile deal with Russia for three years. It had firmly told the US at the ‘2+2’ dialogue that it takes note of the historic nature of India-Russia defence relationship as also legacy issues and keep the missile deal out of the sanctions’ regime.

The US had urged its allies to forgo transactions with Russia, warning that the S-400 missile defence system that India intends to buy would be a “focus area” for it to implement punitive sanctions against a nation undertaking “significant” business deals with the Russians.

(With inputs from IANS)

With every “Exercise” (Red Flag) the F-35 is just “CRUSHING” all comers……

My condolences to RED AIR! 😉

“When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”

USAF General Mark Welsh

How many other 5th Gen Fighters have participated in Red Flag?

The whole point of having an Advance Air Defense System. Is tointegrate it within your Air Defense Network. Which, is why nobody believes Turkey in the first place….

Turkey is playing political games here. It doesn’t want the S-400 really. It wants access to more Western Technology to further their own Defense Industry. Yet, the West is not buying it and is ready to pull the plug…..

Honestly, they can play political suicide. If, they want we don’t care…..:stupid:

You do realize Israeli F-35’s train with Greek S-300PMU’s.

Israeli F-35’s also operate in Syria with Russian S-400’s in proximity.

As I’ve said for a very long time. This is nothing but politics and in the end.Turkey will ultimately get the F35. While, giving up the S-400.

As to do otherwise in “NOT” in her interests…..:stupid:

“The delivery of the S-400s will begin in July 2019. As of October, the system will be active. There are two systems, the second system’s calendar is set back, there is no problem”, the undersecretary of the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), İsmail Demir, said in a televised interview.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tur…ressure-141375

So Turkey’s participation in the JSF program would need to be determined prior to July.

Can you take the non F-35, Turkish part somewhere else? This is not a thread to discuss Patriot or S400. As far as Turkish pilots are concerned, of course they will continue to train on the aircraft because as of today, Turkey is still a partner. But having a handful of pilots begin training on the aircraft is a lot different from being able to fly these aircraft home or use them in an operational setting. I agree with the planning ahead part, given that Turkey is executing the fastest 5th generation project in the world with the aim to put into service the T-X by 2025 (how many flights has the TD had on that?) .

And yes I agree, Turkey should plan for a future without the F-35, without the industrial partnership in the program and without being able to supply weapons like the SOM-J to its partners. That appears to be the best outcome for both Turkey and the US though I am sure offers and counter-offers will continue to be made, as is normal during a negotiation because what I have described is likely the worst case scenario that both parties would probably like to avoid if possible. They have till the summer to sort this out if they can.

The US has made Turkey’s participation in the F-35 program contingent upon its acquisition of the S-400/PAC-3. Accordingly, the issues are intertwined. Being an F-35 program thread I think it is appropriate that developments relating to a JSF Partner’s potential exit from the program are posted in this thread.

The US said that the S-400 is not inter-operable with NATO and it cites this reason for imposing an arms embargo on Turkey (including the F-35). NATO says Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is not its business.