BayarWORLD NEWS REUTERS
MARCH 27, 2019 / 2:28 AM / UPDATED 13 HOURS AGO ‘We need Turkey to buy the Patriot’ missile defense system – acting Pentagon chiefhttps://www.reuters.com/article/us-u…-idUSKCN1R71YE
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Acting U.S. Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan said on Tuesday that he wanted NATO ally Turkey to remain in the F-35 fighter jet program, but added that Ankara needed to buy the Patriot missile defense system.
At a House of Representatives Armed Services Committee hearing, Shanahan was asked whether the United States wanted Turkey in the F-35 program.
“We absolutely do; we need Turkey to buy the Patriot,” he answered.
Washington has opposed Turkey’s plans to buy Russia’s S-400 air defense system, on concerns that would compromise the Lockheed Martin Corp-made F-35’s security. In the strongest signal yet from Washington that Ankara cannot have both the advanced aircraft and the S-400, officials have told Reuters the United States could soon freeze preparations for delivering the F-35 to Turkey.
The Patriot system is made by Raytheon Co.
Reporting by Idrees Ali; editing by Jonathan Oatis
Why is Washington still insisting on Turkey’s participation in the F-35 and the purchase of the PAC-3’s when Turkey has made itself crystal clear that it will purchase the S-400? I think the smartest move Ankara did was to plan ahead for an air force without the F-35.
Meanwhile, Turkish pilots are learning everything about the F-35’s: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/03/25/luke-air-force-base-readies-additional-f-35s-train-turkish-pilots.html
BayarHow male MALE UAV’s do European Air Forces have? Is there a breakdown of their inventories?
Turkey currently has 150 MALE UCAV platforms in its Police, Army, Navy and Air Force inventories and another 200 on order.
BayarJoint Chiefs chair warns of tough decision ahead with F-35 delivery to Turkey BY ELLEN MITCHELL – 03/21/19 01:10 PM EDT
Gen. Joseph Dunford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Thursday the United States will “have a hard time reconciling” the delivery of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey if the NATO ally moves ahead with its purchase of a Russian-made air defense system.
Reuters first reported Thursday that U.S. officials were considering freezing preparations for delivering F-35 aircraft to Turkey should the country buy Russia’s S-400 long-range air defense system.
Dunford, who sidestepped a question on whether he supported the United States halting the F-35 delivery, said he hoped the two countries can work through the issue.
“The S-400 is a tough issue. … I think both the executive branch of our government, the legislative branch of our government, they’re going to have a hard time reconciling the presence of the S-400 and the most advanced fighter aircraft that we have, the F-35,” Dunford told attendees at an Atlantic Council event.
“Our position has been made very clear to Turkey, and we’re hopeful that we can find a way through this, but it’s a tough issue.”
Turkey is a partner in making the F-35 and parts of the jet are built in the country, with an engine overhaul depot in the city of Eskisehir.
Ankara is supposed to eventually get 116 of the fifth-generation fighter jets, but U.S. officials have expressed concerns that the S-400 could be used to gather information on the advanced aircraft.
“The S-400 is a computer. The F-35 is a computer. You don’t hook your computer to your adversary’s computer and that’s basically what we would be doing,” Katie Wheelbarger, acting assistant secretary of Defense for international security affairs, told Reuters.
The Reuters report also noted that Pentagon officials were looking at alternatives to Turkey’s engine depot.
A Pentagon spokesman earlier this month warned that should Turkey move ahead with its S-400 purchase, “there would be grave consequences in terms of our military relationship with them.”
And Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti, head of U.S. European Command, told Congress that he would recommend that the United States not “follow through with the F-35, flying it or working with an ally that’s working with Russian systems.”
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, however, has said the country has already reached an agreement with the Russians and that the S-400 “is a done deal, there can be no turning back.”
Dunford stressed Thursday that Turkey is still a U.S. ally, “and we have many more areas of convergence than divergence.”
“As we look at five, 10 years down the road, I want to make very sure that our Turkish allies are close to us and I work that relationship very hard,” Dunford added.
Meanwhile Turkey announces that it will retrofit its entire F-16 fleet with the ASELSAN AESA radar & optimize them for the air-to-air role- now that its UCAV fleets have attained heavy air-to-ground capability. Turkish officials are of the opinion they could rely on the 245 F-16 CCIP’s (modernised Block 40 + 50+) until the TF-X enters service in 2025.
BayarThe Turkish Aerospace Industries ANKA-2 (now named ANKA-AKSUNGUR) has made its maiden flight today.
40,000+ ft Service Ceiling
Endurance: 30 hours
Engines: 2 x TEI PD-220
Weapons Payload: 1 Ton
ISR/ELINT Payload
BayarI wouldn’t be too confident about that just yet. The NDAA strictly directs the SecDef to not invest any DOD activity in supporting the transfer of the F-35’s to the territory of Turkey until at least Nov. 2019, and they would not have included this in the language if the cooperation of the US DOD (and its financial and operational actions) was not required to make such a thing happen. There could well be safeguards built in.
In any event who interprets and gives effect to the NDAA? The Department of Defence. Well Mr. Shanahan has already said the legislation does not preclude Turkey from taking its 2 aircraft. I think the Greek and Armenian Lobbies should rush to the US Supreme Court and seek an injunction!
This whole debacle is going to end up in Court anyway one day.
BayarMeanwhile, while Congress is having a hard look at the next steps, Turkey will fly its 2 F-35’s home. There is currently no law in force in the US which says Turkey can’t fly aircraft it has already taken delivery of to Turkey. All Turkey has to do is send a TuAF KC-135 and escort the aircraft to Turkey.
P.S. The NDAA only specifys the annual budget and expenditures of the U.S. Department of Defense. It has no relevance or application to private exports by US companies which have already obtained export approvals under previous laws. The US Department of Defense cannot however fund the transfer of aircraft to Turkey. Well quite frankly as Mr. Shanahan has stated it is not funding Turkey’s acquisition and the provision in the NDAA has no legal relevance besides appeasing the Israeli, Greek and Armenian lobbies in Congress.
BayarThis whole argument about delivery is now redundant as Turkish media is now reporting that Turkey is bringing its 2 F-35’s to Malatya, Turkey well before US Congress even attempts to seize the 2 aircraft.
Lockheed Martin seems to confirm this as they have just issued an advertisement for a “Lockheed Martin F-35 Field Logistics Support Representative to be stationed in Malatya, Turkey”
F-35 Field Logistics Support Representative, Malatya, Turkey
https://www.lockheedmartinjobs.com/j…y/694/11153278
Save JobApply Now
JOB ID: 474326BR
Date posted: Mar. 11, 2019
City: Bethesda
State: Maryland
Description:The Site Field Logistics Support Representative will serve as the single point of contact for customers and partners to call-in questions and provide assistance and take corrective action as necessary. This position is also responsible for briefing senior customer and government visitors to the F-35 Aircraft Parts Store on F-35 supply status. Responsibilities include, but are not limited to the following:
1. Inform customers of the current supply status of due-ins and due-outs, as requested. Assist the customer in obtaining improved status on critical need items thereby minimizing Non-Mission Capable, Supply (NMCS) time
2. Assist customer/ government Maintenance and Supply personnel with verification of Mission Impaired Capability Awaiting Parts (MICAP) data, when requested
3. Assist the customer with Part Number and/or National Stock Number clarification
4. Respond to priority customer requests required for mission support, to include after-hours support
5. Promptly notify the customer of subsequent action required to mitigate a status problem
6. Assist supply personnel with clearing frustrated cargo and ensuring property is processed promptly to avoid potential MICAPS and work stoppages
7. Obtain the indicative data necessary to load new item record loads for first time demands at the base
8. Assist the customers with concerns w/ shelf life, Electronic Sensitive Devices/Electrostatic Discharge (ESD) identification, and organizational refusals
9. Assist supply personnel and Items Analysts (IAs) with Repair Cycle Items by providing the government with disposition instructions, as required, shipping/receipt verification of items controlled by the government, but handled through a courier, and drawings for parts without labels or markings
10. Provide Customer Operations Supply team with government supply procedures to eliminate violations of supply discipline; recommend procedural changes when necessary
11. Notify the Items Analysts (IAs) / and Customer Operations Supply team about major or recurring problems; jointly decide course of action or refer problem to respective Supply Lead and or Manager at Fort Worth. Assist IAs with local information on warehoused parts, i.e. verify serial numbers and on-hand quantities
12. Assist IAs in expediting Mission Critical shipments and provide shipping information, as required
13. Attends local Supply/ Maintenance meetings in Lockheed Martin capacity
14. Will be subject to a U.S.Government security investigation and must meet eligibility requirements for access to classified information
15. Provide on-site assistance to company and Customer personnel initiating Action Requests (ARs). Provide training, when requested, to Customer personnel.
16. Must be able to work and communicate well both orally and written in a team environment as this position involves significant and continued interface with Korean customer personnel at all levels. Maintain open lines of communication to provide proactive support and to advise and status problem reports and action requests.The chosen candidate may deploy from their current location. Must possess at least an Interim Secret Security Clearance. Must be a US Citizen. This position is located at a facility that requires special access.
Basic Qualifications:
– At least 8 years related experience in the following skill areas:
– Experience with Performance Based Logistics (PBL)/ Supply Chain Management concepts and performance requirements.
– Experience with U.S Government spares or inventory management systems.
– Experience with aircraft component repair cycle management; repairs process, tracking, expediting, Mission Capable (MICAP) management, transportation management.
– Supply/Inventory management experience to include: shelf-life, electrostatic discharge (ESD).
– Must be proficient with the MS Office Suite: Excel, Power Point, Word.
– Experienced user of computer programs to accomplish reports, logs and briefings.Desired Skills:
The following skills are desired but not required:– Bachelor’s Degree from an accredited college
– Knowledge of the following management systems: SAP,
Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS)
– Advanced Technical Logistics Applications System
(ATLAS), Advanced Planning and Scheduling System (APSS), etc.
– Experience with bench stock, government or industry partnerships
– Prior Field Service Rep experience
– Prior Packaging, Handling and Shipping experience.
– Experience with Commercial spares/inventory
management systems
– Good communication skills both oral and written.
– Must have excellent customer relations/liaison skills.
– MS Project proficiency
– MS Access proficiencyLockheed Martin is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. All qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, pregnancy, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, age, protected veteran status, or disability status.Join us at Lockheed Martin, where your mission is ours. Our customers tackle the hardest missions. Those that demand extraordinary amounts of courage, resilience and precision. They’re dangerous. Critical. Sometimes they even provide an opportunity to change the world and save lives. Those are the missions we care about.
As a leading technology innovation company, Lockheed Martin’s vast team works with partners around the world to bring proven performance to our customers’ toughest challenges. Lockheed Martin has employees based in many states throughout the U.S., and Internationally, with business locations in many nations and territories.
Experience Level: Experienced Professional
Business Unit: ESS0343 AERONAUTICS COMPANY
Relocation Available: Yes
Career Area: Logistics
Clearance Level: Secret
Type: Full-Time
Virtual Location: no
Work Schedule: STANDARD-Mon-Fri/8 hours a day
Shift: First
Patrick Michael Shanahan, Acting United States Secretary of Defense assures Turkish Defense Minister of delivery
Delivery of F-35 jets to Turkey expected in November, infrastructure ready: defense minister
DAILY SABAH WITH AA
ISTANBUL
Published14.03.201911:45
Updated14.03.201919:19espite recent statements and threats, the F-35 process is going smoothly for Turkey and the first batch of deliveries is expected to arrive in Malatya, eastern Anatolia, this November, Defense Minister Hulusi Akar said Thursday.
The minister’s remarks came following the latest statements made by the U.S., namely its top U.S. commander in Europe, who said Washington should not supply Ankara with F-35 fighter jets if it accepts Russia’s S-400 missile defense system.
“Despite some statements, the process of procuring F-35 jets is working fine. Our pilots and maintenance team are continuing to receive training in the U.S.,” Akar told reporters. “We expect delivery of F-35s in November to [Turkey’s] Malatya province. Infrastructure preparations in Malatya have been completed.”
Defense Minister Akar also held a phone call with his U.S. counterpart Patrick Shanahan later in the day to discuss the latest developments in Syria and bilateral defense ties. In recent months Turkey and the U.S. have been discussing coordination over the pullout of U.S. military forces from Syria.
When Ankara decided to diversify its air defense systems with the purchase of the S-400 missile defense system from Russia in 2017, it sparked a rift with Turkey’s NATO ally – the U.S. The recent battle of diplomatic rhetoric between the two allies culminated with threats from the U.S. State Department and a top American general commanding U.S. forces in Europe openly declaring that if Ankara does not drop its plans to proceed with the S-400 purchase, F-35 jet fighters will not be delivered to Turkey. U.S. officials also claimed that Turkey and its companies would be removed from the F-35 program, while a series of sanctions could be imposed on Ankara, targeting its defense industry.
Washington has cautioned that the S-400 system might covertly obtain critical information on its F-35 fighter jets, including their detection range, which could then be relayed to Russia. However, Turkish officials have repeatedly stressed that the S-400 deal is not a threat to NATO systems and is not on the table to be used as a bargain against F-35 jets and Patriot negotiations. Ankara’s decision to resort to the Russian-made surface-to-air missile (SAM) system is the result of a comprehensive calculation of geopolitical risks compelling the country to look for alternatives to strengthen its defense systems.
On a number of occasions, Turkish authorities have resolutely expressed Ankara’s commitment to honoring the deal with Russia. They have said Turkey has made the deal with Russia and a step back was out of the question.
The latest statements from the U.S. came Wednesday from U.S. European Command (EUCOM) Commander Gen. Curtis M. Scaparrotti, who is also NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, while testifying at a hearing of the House Armed Services Committee alongside Kathryn Wheelbarger, the acting assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs.
“I do believe that we shouldn’t provide F-35s if there is an S-400 in Turkey,” Scaparrotti said. He noted, however, that he is talking to Turkish officials every day on this issue. “I know their leaders very well. Our intent is to maintain them as an important NATO ally into the future,” he added, referring to Turkey.
Defense Minister Akar said that during their visit to the U.S., “They told us that Turkey is one of the countries that has fully fulfilled its responsibilities, both financial and on other pledges.” The defense chief added that Turkey continues to do its part in designing and manufacturing some parts of the F-35s.
The minister said Turkey has a clear stance on the procurement of the Russian S-400 missile defense system. As an issue for Turkey since the end of the 1990s, Turkey’s search for an air and missile defense system accelerated in 2011 due to threats, Akar said.
After NATO stationed Patriots from the U.S., Germany, and the Netherlands at Turkey’s request, they left Turkey after a one-and-a-half year period on duty, he said.
“So, everybody saw that we cannot keep our survival relying on temporary measures, and we should acquire it [air defense system],” Akar said.
At that time, Turkey systematized its current search, criteria were determined and negotiations began, he added. Akar said Turkey’s main criteria were to acquire the technology, production, modernization and export rights of the systems that it purchases.
Russia responded positively to these demands and the agreement was signed for the purchase of the S-400 missile defense system after negotiations, he said. On the letters sent to NATO and the U.S. for the supply of air defense systems, Akar said that the U.S. got back to Turkey 17 months later. “We haven’t parted ways with NATO. We fully fulfill our commitments to NATO. However, our national security concerns cannot be ignored,” said Akar.
The delivery process of S-400 defense system is expected to begin as of July this year. Turkey will be the first NATO member country to acquire the system.
“Turkey being a NATO member does not mean we will not be able to acquire these air defense systems. NATO does not have regulations binding member states in this direction. Each member of NATO is free to trade all kinds of weapons,” said Herdem Advocacy Co-Founder and defense industry law specialist lawyer Şafak Herdem.
Herdem was cited by Turkish daily Dünya as saying that the defense industry has always been kept as an exception in the World Trade Organization’s regulations as well, adding: “National security is what really matters. Turkey will take S-400 if it wants to. There is no obstacle to it in the international law agreements. All other statements are political.”
U.S. officials have said that if Turkey proceeds with the S-400 purchase, Washington will withdraw its offer to sell a $3.5 billion Raytheon Patriot missile package. Ankara says, however, the two deals are not alternates to one another and the conditions attached to their sale agreements must be dealt with separately.
In August 2018, the Trump administration approved a defense budget law delaying delivery of F-35 jets to Turkey, citing Turkey’s purchase from the Russians.
Two months later, a Pentagon report said Turkey could face expulsion from the F-35 program if it goes ahead with the purchase.
Turkey has been in the F-35 program since 1999, and the Turkish defense industry has taken an active role in the production of aircraft and invested $1.25 billion in the aircraft’s development.
The country plans to purchase 100 F-35 fighter jets in the coming years. Out of 100 aircraft, 30 have been approved. The country took delivery of its first F-35 fighter jet at a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas, on June 21.
The Ankara-Moscow S-400 deal was inked in December 2017, when the parties signed a $2.5 billion agreement for two batteries of the systems – Russia’s most advanced long-range anti-aircraft missile system.
Commenting on plans in Syria’s Idlib, Akar said Turkey and Russia were working on forming a joint coordination center in the province.
BayarYou got to be on some serious medications if you think that seizing US nuclear weapons by force is a legitimate option (assuming that they are even there in the first place). What next hijack AF-1 and hold POTUS hostage? Anyhow, the point about any future seizing of Turkish F-35As is inaccurate. The NDAA is the law of the land so if the Congress directs the DOD, post November, to recind Turkey’s partnership and to not allow the transfer of the said aircraft then that will be the law of the land unless Trump vetos the bill along with the rest of the NDAA which will be a non starter. The matter is largely a Congressional matter unless Trump wants to take the Congress head on over Erdogan going into an election year..which is highly highly unlikely…I doubt that in election season, Erdgan is the hill you want to die on irrespective of whether you are a democrat or Republican presidential candidate or legislator.
What you fail to realize is that Turkey has taken delivery of 2 F-35’s. Delivery is a legal concept. There was a full on ceremony at Lockheed Martin facilities sometime ago and Turkey signed documents accepting legal title & possession to the said aircraft. US Congress cannot legislate in respect of Aircraft in other Nations inventory.
The 2 F-35’s are in the US pursuant to a separate NATO agreement whereby NATO member States have agreed to pool their initial batch of F-35’s together for training purposes. These 2 aircraft have Turkish Air Force Tail numbers etc.
Obstructing Turkey from using aircraft it not only owns but operates at its expense is an act of seizure. Turkish officials have made this clear to the US. It is like seizing a Turkish F-16 when it attends Red Flag drills in the US.
Turkey gets first F-35, but faces halt on future deliveries if Congress gets its way
https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato…re-deliveries/By: Valerie Insinna
On Thursday, Senate appropriators added an amendment to the foreign aid bill that would put a stop to future deliveries if Turkey does not cancel the S-400 purchase. And 44 House lawmakers have already signed off on a letter urging Defense Secretary Jim Mattis to do the same.
All of that controversy seemed far removed from the ceremony in Fort Worth, attended by Lockheed Martin executives, Turkish defense officials, and representatives from the U.S. Defense Department’s F-35 joint program office and Defense Contracts Management Agency.
After the country’s F-35 was rolled out, Turkish officials took to the stage, where they repeatedly reinforced the idea that it would use its F-35s to promote NATO interests.
Turkish Maj. Gen. Reha Ufuk Er said that Turkey’s F-35s will “significantly augment NATO alliance air capabilities and contribute to global stability.
On the other hand, it’s geographic location and proximity to the conflict areas significantly increases the security challenges it faces. All of these factors necessitate that Turkey has robust capabilities to ensure her contribution to regional and global security environment.”
F-35’s technological features, ability to adapt to future threats and use by partners across the globe makes it a great asset to achieve that goal, Ufuk Er said, adding that he hoped the United States and Turkey would work together to explore ways to best use the joint strike fighter.
Serdar Demirel, Turkey’s deputy undersecretary of defense industries, also noted that the aircraft would help Turkey strengthen the deterrence of NATO.
Lawmakers and certain officials in the Defense Department and NATO have already stepped forward to register concerns that Turkey’s use of the S-400 alongside the F-35 could compromise the joint strike fighter’s stealth capabilities and potentially convey vulnerabilities to Russia.
Any effort by the Government of the Republic of Turkey to further enhance their relationship with Russia will degrade the general security of the NATO alliance … and degrade interoperability of the alliance,the Senate version of the fiscal year 2019 defense policy bill states.
CNN reported on Tuesday that Mattis is personally opposed to attempts by Congress to block future F-35 deliveries to Turkey, and that he is working with lawmakers to ensure that the Senate’s language is omitted from the final version of the defense policy bill.
Those provisions would prohibit transfers of F-35s to Turkey until the Defense Department develops a plan to remove Turkey from the program.
That may be easier said than done. Turkey plans to buy 100 F-35As total. As a partner on the program, it has helped finance the development of the joint strike fighter as well as providing select maintenance functions for European operators.
Turkish defense contractors also help build the F-35, and a video shown at the rollout included executives from companies such as Turkish Aerospace Industries, Kale Group, ALP Aviation and Ayesas, the only Turkish company involved in software development.
Turkey is set to hold a presidential and parliamentary election June 24 — and the outcome could affect the government’s willingness to continue pursuing the S-400.
However, today’s ceremony could be a boon for Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said Aykan Erdemir, a former member of the Turkish parliament and senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
“The rollout ceremony, which comes right after Monday’s Senate vote to block the transfer of F-35 titles, allows Turkey’s pro-government media to spin today’s development as Erdogan’s defeat of U.S. Congress and to boost his image as an indomitable leader,” he said. “This will be yet another setback for Turkey’s democratic opposition already suffering under Erdogan’s draconian state of emergency and uneven playing field in the country.”
After the delivery, Turkey’s first F-35 is set to move to Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., where the Turkish pilots will be embedded inside a U.S. Air Force training squadron and learn to operate the F-35 alongside American pilots.
Turkish maintainers have already started their training at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, Ufuk Er said.
BayarBayar bring these over to the “rainbow and unicorn” Turkish thread. Your not up on the current news and situation:
Trump signed a bill blocking the F-35 transfer in February. Unlike Erdogan, Trump cannot rule by decree even IF he wanted to bypass Congress. Bottom line, short of Turkey abandoning the S-400, they aren’t getting the F-35. The Turkish media and government can write and makes statements otherwise, but that’s the current position based on the signed spending bill. The next report isn’t due until Nov. 2019.
Trump did not sign a bill blocking the F-35 transfer to Turkey. You need to forgot about what the Mass Media says and look at the actual document passed by Congress.
The Bill passed by Congress and signed by Trump merely says that the Administration cannot expropriate funds for the process of delivering F-35 aircraft to Turkey until a Report is prepared for Congress by November 2019. The Bill does not have retrospective application in respect of the 2 Aircraft already delivered to the Turkish Air Force and now part of the Turkish Air Force inventory. The Bill also does not apply to circumstances in which no US funds are spent on facilitating delivery of the aircraft to Turkey (e.g. FMS financing etc).
As a consortium partner, Turkey does not make purchases of the F-35 via the FMS process. Turkey pays upfront. The legislation also does not rescind the previous legislation passed by Congress authorizing Turkey’s participation in the JSF consortium. Both the Trump Administration and Turkey know what they are doing.
In any event the world will be watching very carefully to see whether the US would attempt to seize combat aircraft in the Turkish Air Force Inventory in the US for NATO training- Turkey’s F-35’s are in the US pursuant to a NATO agreement to pool F-35’s for training purposes.
There is also nothing stopping Turkey from legally withdrawing its 2 F-35’s from the training pool and bringing them back to Turkey.
And in the event that Turkey’s 2 F-35’s are illegally seized- Turkey can apply tit-for-tat measures. E.g. Turkey can seize the B-61 Nukes at Incirlik AF base in Turkey.
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BayarUPDATE ON TURKEY AND THE F-35 Saga;
Trump Administration apparently conveys to Turkey that it was “justified in procuring the S-400”: https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-us/trum…e-says-erdogan
Trump Administration apparently also guarantees delivery of Turkey’s F-35 and implies that Ankara should ignore statements made by media and US Congress:
Turkey and the US have a working coordination on the development and delivery of F-35 jets “despite certain statements” in the U.S., Akar said on Thursday. He would not elaborate. See https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-…tion-1.7021022
Turkey says it will still not abandon its other programs: TF-X and S-400…Looks like Trump does not want a $20 billion whack on Boeing
BayarTurkey has far more to “loose” than the US and Europe. As a matter of fact a serious break in relation between Turkey and the West. Would be nothing short of “CRUSHING” to Turkey. Some seem to forget much of Turkey’s Military and Defense Industry heavily relies on the US and Europe….
Erdoðan is on his way to committing suicide. If, he keeps this up much longer! :stupid:
Actually Turkey has nothing to loose. In fact, its pivot East would merely solidify a multi-polar world: East and West. The US could then forgot about access to the Black Sea: Turkey and Russia would ensure it becomes their own lake.
Turkey’s Military and Defense Industry relied heavily on the US and Europe in the past due to its NATO membership. Today Turkey’s priority is operational sovereignty through indigenous programs- programs it funds in line with its growing GDP.
I do not think the Su-57 will be open for Turkey any time soon. Its way too Early for that.
The Su-35T might happen sooner than you think Scootie.
The Show stopper made by US to sanctions onTurkey will run its course, and with that Eredogan is gaining as much support as he lose with more anti-US rally, Israeli and Us is not very popular in this part of the world mind you.. if you watch the news(not CNN/FOX)
Safe to say Eredogan will stay right where he is.
President Putin of Russia has already publicly confirmed that both the S-500 and Su-57 can be procured by Turkey should they wish to do so. Did you really think Mr. Putin would miss an opportunity to drive a wedge between Turkey and NATO?
Turkish officials have publicly stated that they would prefer operational sovereignty hence why they limited their initial order to 100 F-35’s when they had a need for 300 combat aircraft- Turkey opted for a future Airforce which would field two separate platforms: the F-35 and TF-X.
The Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) does not guarantee 100% Operational Sovereignty says Turkish officials. Russia’s offer would give Turkey operational sovereignty even though the Su-57 may not be considered a truly 5th Gen Aircraft at present due to its engine as it enables Turkey to use its own sub-systems- similar to the US-Israeli relationship.
BayarThanks Bayar. I interpreted such comments as warnings, I did not thought there were already concrete agreements in place. I can see Russia pushing preferentially the MiG-35 with a big discount (they will want to push the exports of the new model) or in case Turkey insists, a Su-35 that I am sure would give Turkey much food for thought in terms of developing the TF-X. Picking the Su-57 is not really a stop-gap measure, since it can provide both air superiority and strike roles at a very high level long term… operationally it would end up threatening the TF-X. Don’t know if Russia would be ready to launch a modification and co-production program for the Su-57 for a minor Turkish buy. Turkish-Russian relations are not the simplest ones either, with a number of implicit conflicts still unresolved, so there would need to be seen how the negotiations would pan out it terms of transferring most advanced military technologies.
Turkey knows about its obligations to NATO and will never procure an off-the-shelf system from Russia with Russian software, mission computers, IFF etc. It will always want to use its own mission computer, software, avionics, IFF systems etc.
That would be serious retaliation, Boeing is not in the best moment to get a $20 billion hit… I wonder what further vulnerabilities Turkish military, as NATO member and previously strong US partner has in case cooperation is stopped. The engines for the T129, spares for F-16 spring to mind but surely there are hundreds of items where some kind of interdependence exists. Is Turkey in your opinion in conditions to withstand the backlash of a full blown US response until the end? And, as NATO partners, how far US can go without forcing Turkey out of the alliance? It is easy to see where a quarrel starts but difficult to predict where it can stop…
The T-129, T-130, Anka UAV’s, Akinci UAV engines, weapons systems and avionics are all indigenous. Turkey during the past 5 years has come along way in terms of design and development of engines. The development of the TS-1400 Turboshaft engine was a milestone for Turkey. As for the F-16- Turkey has developed an indigenous mission computer, avionics suite, AESA Radar, DataLink etc under the TAI Ozgur program. So far these have only been retrofitted to the Block 30 aircraft (but for the Aselsan AESA). If the need arises Turkey can keeps its F-16’s flying in an advanced shape relying on national resources.
Turkey endured a US ambargo in 1974 after the Cyprus Peace Operation and managed. Like 1974 relations will cool temporarily with the US and then get back on track in future.
Fight with US and be friends with UK comes across as an impossible goal to me. Rolls Royce was apparently scaling down efforts for the engine of the TF-X already but maybe I am wrong. I mean, everybody likes money and will be ready for partnership, but if someone above orders to stop the party it can leave Turkey with a lot of investments done and an unfinished project in their hands. Ambivalence West-East has helped Turkey a lot but West is not used to their partners flirting out with the East too .I am inclined to think this ambivalence is not going to be tolerated in the future.
I wouldn’t call it a fight with the US. Turkey wants to be equidistant to the US and Russia and not choose between either. Although Turkey may diversify its arms suppliers this does not mean it will cut ties with the US or abandon NATO. Turkey’s response thus far to the Trump admin. has been measured and reciprocal.
Think of France under Charles De Gaulle and its withdrawal from NATO’s military arm.
Turkey feels that it had been left out to dry when Russia entered Syria. Hence, it believes the viable option is to be equidistant to both Russia and the US whilst still maintaining the status quo (membership of NATO).
Sounds reasonable and is clearly another opportunity for cooperation with Russia, which has the proper planes and develops carriers in that tonnage.
I think we are going far too off topic and I will limit my comments on this thread to this. We can discuss this in the Turkish Aerospace thread.
BayarI was referring to the new stealth aircraft to be developed with Russia.
My bad. It wont be a new aircraft…basically the Su-57 with Turkish sub-systems already developed or being developed for the TF-X.
BayarA new aircraft is going to take ages to develop though.
All of the above aircraft are in production with the exception of 3 labelled as “Proje” in red. Even the TF-X is intended to be fielded before 2025.
BayarWow, that sounds very conclusive, do you think is that serious? Do you mean a definitive abandonment of F-35 program?
And how is Turkey expected to substitute the gap left by the F-35, is there a plan at all that you know? I mean, apart from AF you were expecting to buy the STOVL version too for the navy, right?
TCG Anadolu will now primarily use Turkish Aerospace T-129’s, T-130 Heavy Atak II’s, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. So essentially they will act as helicopter carriers with limited strike capability- the Akinci UAV has AESA radar and a weapons payload of 1.5 Tons.
The Light Carrier/LHD is due to be launched in 2 months time.
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There is also now talk of a Naval Variant of the TF-X for use on a conventional 40,000 to 60,000 ton Carrier as Turkey wants full operational sovereignty and independence.
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