SahinEdLAw,
Since when International Air Space, became Greek air space? Athen FIR and National air space are two separate things that you and other Greeks have to understand…If this is the mentality in this forum, there is no reason to discuss…
Hyperion,
According to ICOA artcile 3, Turkish “State” aircraft including military has no LEGAL responsibility to submit flight plans as long as they fly within International Air Space…Until last year, TuAF was submitting all flights plans related to NATO HQs before flying to Aegean…Greece has access to these flight plans….But nothing changed, still HAF fighters intercepted TuAF fighters…Therefore, I strongly believe,, even if TuAF submit flight plans, HAF will still intercept TuAF fighters…You can not say NO to me…This is Greek mentality in the Aegean…You consider it yours, or some say Greek Lake, historical etc…In addition, I understand why HAF scrambles, but HAF fighters should maintain their safe distance, should not interfere with Turkish flights…Why do you need to fly as close as 20 meters? Keep your safe distance, indentify, and go back…
You have to accept the reality that there are now others living on the other side of the Aegean…The others like Turkey has economical and geographical interest in the Aegean…Dont get me wrong…No body says, lets share is 50-50…But the current Greek attitude, everything in the Aegean should be mine approach must stop…Greece should not extend your territorial waters to close your neighbor’s vital free access to international waters…Both governments should find a middle way, a fair solution for both sides…this is my take on the issue…
SahinDear Phantom,
All TuAF F-4E and F-4E/2020 Terminator squadrons are now performing A/G missions…We are not ganna see Aim-7 Sparrow armed Turkish F-4Es anymore…TuAF gives F-16s more A/A roles than A/G after all F-4Es squadrons converted to A/G duties…
SahinJJ6,
I am afraid your information is wrong…There was no dogfight at all…Here is the first hand information from a Turkish F-16 pilot who has seen the AVTR of the second turkish F-16 and talked to the pilot of crashed Turkish F-16. Here what he says:
First of all, as I have observed lots of misinformation and accusations have been pouring in. First of all, THERE WAS NO DOGFIGHT. Turkish F-16s and RF-4E were flying at 28000 ft and 300 CAS. They were in a Vic formation, F-4 leading and two F-16s 4000 ft behind, flying line abreast. Wingmen was 2000 ft higher.
After the Greek F-16s interception, they both followed wingmen for a while. Greek number 2 stayed with wingmen, while number 1 dipped the nose down to extend and went for leader. During his approach to lead aircraft, Turkish F-16 number 2 warned his lead about the excessive overtake of the Greek jet on lead aircraft.
A few seconds later Greek mishap A/C made another attempt to get in the close formation of Turkish mishap A/C. Again wingmen warned the lead pilot. At that time wingmen looked back over his shoulder to see Greek number 2 which was slightly high and back.
Next time looking at the leader he saw the Greek aircraft hitting the lead with an incredible smash from down and right aft. He said the Greek A/C literally blown into thousands of pieces at the time of collision. Instantly, Turkish a/c was broken into two pieces. The aft part started burning. The lead a/c ejected at that moment. we were able to see the main pieces of A/C debris a few seconds later in his VTR. During this whole time there was no maneuver on the VTR.
People accusing the Turkish pilots should think again. The Greek pilot made a mistake by not controlling his A/C in such a close position. According to ICAO rules, he shouldn’t be inside 1000 ft.
BTW, there are lots of accusations against Turkish pilot during the rescue process. If I have time tomorrow I will post about it. Things did not happen as written in this thread. You will get the Truth.
SahinFantasma,
You words and actions of Greek government do not match…Greece has closed her air space to TuAF a/cs flying to NATO exercises in Europe…AFAIK, still no permission is given for these flights…TuAF uses either Bulgaria, or Mediterranean Sea routes…These flights have no arms, no recon equipments, very clean configuration…Still afraid of what? The worst of it, I have seen Greek fighters intercepting these TuAF formations traveling to Europe…Show of good neighborhood maybe…
Why in the earth, should a sovereign country depend on someone’s decision and give up her rights to fly, conduct exercises in the international air space? Especially, if this country has huge coastal lines along Aegean Sea…Greek friends are talking as if Turkey is not located in the Aegean Sea, and taking over Greek air space by force…On the contrary, as a coastal state in the Aegean, Turkey is trying to use international space and waters available to anyone…
If you like to intercept Turkish flights in the international air space, o.k do it but keep your distance, identify and fly away…there is no need to fly as close at 20- 30 meters for identification purposes unless Greek pilots have eye problems…
SahinFantasma,
We are not that “naive” to beleive your arguments…Free passage for civilian maybe…what about military? does Greece will allow Turkish military to conduct exercises within Greek national space when ever she want? Dont say me YES…Considering the current events, and Greek approach, ones Greece takes control of all international waters and air space, Turkey can not use Aegean without permission of Greece…Is this what Greece want? To put coastal state Turkey in a position that she can not access international air space and waters without crossing Greece territorial limits…Why dont we keep current 6 miles status quo so that everyone can use Aegean international waters and air space freely?
SahinGreek friends are giving the example of Black Sea region where coastal states agreed to extend their territories to 12 miles…But this extension to 12 miles does not effecting any of the coastal states negatively…International Waters and Air Space are still available to the coastal states in the Black Sea region…The situation in Aegean Sea is very different…Many Greek islands in the Aegean are actually closer to Turkey than Greek mainland….The slightest increase of territorial limits changes the international air and sea lines…Geography of Aegean should be considered if both sides wants to solve the problems
BTW, Nobody is demanding Islands from Greece…Please do not write baseless accusations which are not true…Turkey mainly insists of keeping the current status quo which is officially 6 miles of territorial waters for both sides…
SahinDefense of a warship(Frigates/Destroyers) provided by layered air defense weapon system. Most NATO frigates/destroyers will be equipted with ESSM in coming years…ESSM will provide the first layer against A/C, Helos, ASMs. Then, depending on the country, some countries use RAM as second layer against ASMs,Helos etc, some countries will continue using Phalanx, Goalkeeper or Sea Zenith as second layer(last layer actually)…
Problem with RAM is that even though it has high prob of kill, it is a very expensive missile…It is mainly designed for ASM defense, useless against fast patrol boats or other surface targets…Nowadays, world navies giving attentin to very close range parameter defense of a ship…Only high calibre/high rate of fire cannons are capable enough to provide very close range force against fast boats, or other terrorist used crafts…Upgraded Phalanx Block-1B, Goalkeeper, or Sea Zenith will be world navies in the dual role….CIWS against ASM and Parameter protection against fast crafts/boats, or insurgents near land…
If we look at classifications of these mentioned weapon system: Phalanx is classified as CIWS(Close in Weapon System) within 1.5km. RAM is classified as Point Defense System within 10km. ESSM is a medium range area defense system within 45kms…Does ESSM capable of interceping anti-ship missiles? Yes, it does since it has a new up-rated rocket motor(longer range), proximity fuze, warhead(probably same as SM-2), new guidance section with autopilot, new trust vectoring nozzles which gives increased low altitute, high G maneuvering capablity to ESSM…
SahinA FMS contract for 8 batteries of I-HAWKs was signed in 2000 or 2001 if i remember correctly. Initially, I-HAWK units are taken from US Army storage and upgraded to HAWK-XXI standards by Raytheon and Kongsberg of Norway. The upgrade process took longer than anticipated but this is due to new configuration of HAWK-XXI system…Turkish configuration is actually very compact…Some of the older generation 2-D search and range only radars are eliminated from the system. HAWK-XXI includes Fire Distribution Center(FDC)s from Norway’s NASAM, MPQ-64 Sentinel 3-D radars, and digital interface to Hawk launchers…Since the core of the HAWK-XXI system is taken from Norway’s NASAM, AMRAAM capability also included in the system as an option in the future…Hawk missiles are MIM-23K version with updated blast fragmentation warheads…
I don’t know where HAWK-XXI units are located but I dont think it will be released to the public…
SahinI am not HAF expert or know their problems but it looked like all four Greek ERJ-145 ERIEYEs were delievered as I have seen their photos from recent airshow in Tanagra…As in every new weapon system, delays or technical difficulties are expected…
SahinWhat are you talking about? You can not claim superiority without knowing the facts. Firing a live missile in a peace time encounter between HAF and TuAF is as crazy as firing a real bullet on an innocent person in the street…In fact, there are hundreds of Greek Mirage-2000 six position HUD pictures taken by TuAF F-16s….But nobody fired a live missile to shoot them down…
If you are looking for embarresments, F-5/2000s killed several F-15Es during Anatolian Eagle exercises…Probably, BVR shoots were not allowed for the senario of the mission and also ground controlled F-5/2000 sneaked into behind F-15Es during their low level runs…Does this mean F-5 is better than F-15E Eagle? Mirage-2000 can win dogfights over F-16s, nobody can argue about it but claiming that Mirage-2000 is better based on a few exercises or firing a missile to a F-16 during no war situation is totaly wrong…Look into more technical aspect of the comprasion…
SahinYes, Greek Mirage-2000 fired a Magic-II to an “unarmed” Turkish F-16D in a “peace time” during a routine training flight in the Aegean…How come do you consider that as superiority of Mirage-2000 over F-16?
SahinDear Beleg,
This is their way of making anti-Turkey and biased statements and playing the “innocent” all the time…These people has no memory at all and blame Turkey for everything happened in the past without questioning their goverments….
SahinWhy do you need a new generation MANPADS to shoot down AH-64D? Do you think AH-64D can not be shot down by weapons like RPG or wire guided older Russian anti-Tank missile? AH-64D or whatever type attack helo are not immune to the ground fire which can bring down the most advanced helos you can imagine…
SahinFantasma,
I suggest you first read what your fellow Greek members wrote here before accusing someone for writing a childish comments…This topic started very nicely, and guess who is trying to spoil it..I am not going to discuss political matters..
SahinPosted by swerve
Agreed. Turks don’t think about Greece most of the time, but unfortunately Greeks don’t realise that.
Posted by Fantasma
And how exactly did you reach this conclusion???
Here is the answer to your question Fantasma:
Posted by Chakos
Get out of Cyprus, hand back Constantinople (theres no such thing as istanbul) and resolve the issues over the other Greek islands.. then Turkay can feel free to go and have its adventures in the caucus region and we Greeks and Cypriots wont care.
What proof should be needed if some(or most!!!) Greeks are still living in the past?
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