Turkish Navy recently signed a contract for 10 ATR-72/500 ASW/ASuW platforms…

Popeye-1(AGM-142 Have Nap in US designation) is really a big missile. It is 4.8 meters long, has 1.7 meters wing spans, weight of 3000lb(1360kg)

Popeye-II(AGM-142 Have Lite) is a smaller and lighter version of Popeye-1. It is 4.30 meters long, has the same wing span of Popeye-1, lighter 2500lb(1130kg) weight. It is designed for F-16 type aircrafts because of weight limitations on under wing pylons. Theoretically, F-16 can carry a 3000lb Popeye-1 in the inner (designed for 4500lb) pylons but the problem is less fuel and G limitations should be imposed on FBW.

Interestingly enough, TuAF uses Popeye-1 on F-4E/2020s but picked AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER for TuAF F-16s. SLAM-ER is only 1600lb(800lb warhead) compare to (3000,2500lb and 800lb warhead)Popeye-1/2, and it has a range of 280km with a small turbojet engine. I think SLAM-ER is a perfect match for F-16s for the long range operations that demands more internal fuel and lighter payloads.

It seems to me that EF-2000 Tranche-1 was rushed little bit for active service…There was no need to do that as far as I can see. Everybody in the EF-2000 program made back up plans, Italians leased F-16s, Germans were using Mig-29s and F-4Fs, they could have flown Mig-29s for a few more years until Tranche-2…Spain’s F-18s were pretty much up to date…UK was flying AMRAAM capable TORNADO and Harriers…Why these countries did not wait a few more years to get full multi-role version(Tranche-2) EF-2000 with most of weapons and systems integrations are done…I am guessing that the political( and economical) worries of the participanting goverments made the decision to go forward with Tranche-1 rather than military needs…Even in Tranche-2, technological gap created by not introducing AESA type fire control radar which are integrated ans operational in every 4th generation fighters EF-2000 competing with…ECR-90 may be a good radar buy still uses mechanically rotated antenna which has limitations…

Turkish Army is a long time user of S-70A Black Hawk, AS-532 Cougar, and Mi-17…

S-70A Black Hawk performs better in high and hot conditions among three of them. Black Hawk is also very robust platform as seen by real life experience in Turkish Army service…One Black Hawk even flew 30-45 minutes to safety when it got hit by a RPG-7 and lost oil/hydrolics…Several crashed Black Hawks even recovered from mountain pikes and repaired later…She is very crash resistant…

AS-532 is more suited for sea level operations, mostly cost guard duties because of larger cabin…Cougar is not as good as Black Hawk in the high hot conditions(mountains)…For this reason, Turkish Army Cougars are deployed mostly in the central and western Anatolia, very flat land…Turkish Air Force also uses AS-532’s in the CSAR/SAR operations…

Mi-17 serves in Turkish Gendarme as Utulity/VIP/Medavac versions…Mi-17 is not regarded best in it is category but it is a decent/cheapest helo with a largest cabin among three…But it is not as crash resistant as S-70 and AS-532…copule of years ago, one Mi-17 crash landed and rolled over on the side, fuel tank leaked and helo caught fire, injuring 14 soldiers…This will not happen if S-70 crashes the same way Mi-17 crashed…Cockpit design is also very weird compare to western helos…Turkish Army had to make some changes in the cockpit and added couple of avionics to make flyable in Turkey…

If I rank them, The best is S-70A(UH-60L), the second best is AS-532UL/AL, the third place Mi-17…

Try to shoot down a target flying 100kms away at 30 meters(100 feet) altitute…The radar guidance will not work at that(low) altitute because it can NOT see the target unless you have mounted radar tracker on airplane or something…Semi-active guidance technnique will not work for over the horizon “low flying” targets…I dont know how high you can extend the radar antennas on S-300, it will not make a huge difference…There are radar horizon charts available, you can calculate yourself. If radar antenna is at 200 feet(60 meters) high and target is flying at 100 feet(30 meters), this radar can see the target at 30 miles distance approximately…If radar antenna is located 100 feet high(30 meters), target is coming a 100 feet, than radar can pick up the target at 25 miles…So, what are the exact heights of radars used in the S-300? I dont think they can be lifted more than 10-15 meters high…Of course I am assuming zero ground level reference for both the radar and the target…If you can put S-300 over the top of a mountain, it is good for radar coverage…What I have seen from a picture someone posted showed a Greek S-300 system deployed at sea level on Crete island at the Souda air base…

5 minutes deployment time for S-300PMU-1? Overly optimistic estimation for a S-300 size SAM system…For a single TOR-M1 fire unit, it is ok but S-300 has some many trucks and command shelters must be moved…

Srbin,

Politically, if something like S-400 or S-300 located in Rhodos, Turkey will consider them offensive systems, and will consider any Greek deployment of such system hostile…

Why do you think TuAF will have to use HARM if Greeks put their S-400 or S-300 systems 20km from Turkish coast lines? “Militarly” such deployment of an “expensive system” close to Turkish artillery range does not make sense to me. Long range air defense systems must stay behind lines and safe from easy reach of your possible enemy…Greeks are smart enough to not put their expensive systems close to Turkey…Turkey does not even need to fire HARMs if S-400 deployed to Rhodos…A location known system can be engaged by long range artillery guns and missiles…

You are also over estimating S-300/400 capabilities. They will not move around in 5 minutes…How many trucks, radars, launchers must be moved? At the same time, you have said S-400 can engage from 400km, right? Are you talking about radar range or missile engagement range? Did you consider that earth is not flat and there are some many strings attached to possible 400km engagement range? It is very easy to put a ruler on a map and determine its range, in reality, it is different…

Sens is right on the radar detection ranges. Detection of a target depends on several factors, power/frequency of radar transmitter, location of the radar antenna, altitute of target, RCS of the target, weather conditions all can effect the first detection ranges. S-300’s 150km missile engagement range is a theoritical range that everything is in the perfect conditon. If you approach very low level 100 feet(30 meters), S-300 can not detect the target until as close as “maybe” 35-40kms depending on the height of radar antenna and obstacles on the route…This means gap filler low altitute SAMs should be set around 30km from the center point to close the approach ways and force attackers to gain altitute so that S-300s can engage targets as advertised…

Attackers probably can use several tactics simultaneously, some attackers deal with low altitute systems and open a safe coridor, and the remaining attack force that intended for S-300 can use this safe coridor and approach very low. HARM shooters and other SEAD assets and other heavy loaded(Maverick/CBU) force can pull up and fire HARM/Mavericks and drop CBU bomblets over S-300 battery rapidly, then pull down to low altitute again…Or Another approach would be fly very low, pull up to 10,00 feet altitute, when you are 70-80km away from the target and let S-300 see you, fire some RF drones(ITALD), fire couple of HARMs in a quick sequences or DELILAH type anti-radar lotitering cruise missiles to force S-300 to turn off radars, then pull down low altitutes. If S-300 dont turn off radars some of HARMs/DELILAH probably will hit them, this is the result wanted. If S-300 turns off radars, then still CBU loaded strike force coming behind will drop their loads on S-300 without being targeted…These senarios are just hypothetical and my thoughts. New generation SLAM-ER type missiles has very long ranges, given that location of S-300 known to the attacker, a couple of SLAM-ER missile can do the job from 250km way without risking lifes. S-300 producer claims that it can also shot down balistic missiles in shorter ranges, let it prove itself if S-300 can bring down approaching SLAM-ER missiles…Only one successful hit to the missile tracker will halt S-300 operations…

As you can see there are so many thing an attacker can do, without air support/networking options SAMs are dead and will not change the result of a war. Therefore, air superiority is very important…