SahinCrazy about what? Turkish F-16s need midlife upgrade in coming years. This proposal is about that and increasing capabilities of TuAF for next decade. It would be crazy if you spend 90(+ maybe more) million dollar on a project that has 1990s technolgy in 21 century and claims superiority after F-22…
Turkey did not sign a multibillion dollar contract since 1994 except Boeing 737 AEW&C deal signed in 2003. 160(106 Block-40 and 38 Block-30 surviving) Turkish F-16s Block-30/40s are produced between 1987 and 1996 since then no avionics upgrade has been done on them. 80(76 surviving) Block-50s are produced between 1996-1999, they are the newest…The proposed upgrade is considered med life upgrade which will introduce new generation weaponry, avionics and integration with Turkish 737 AEW&C…Turkish military is big(600,000 men army) but its defense budget(~9 billion) is low compare to other armies of smaller size nations such as Spain, Italy…
Turkey needs strong army(of course air force) in that part of the world, Turkey is not in the middle of Europe and not in a quite neighborhood…If you look at the map, you will see what I am talking about…Turkey is in the NATO but when Turkey needed help in the past(1991 gulf war), Germany sent “Alpha Jets” for the defense of Turkey, Alpha Jets, can you imagine!!!!…Italy sent F-104s(I am glad they did not crash)…Belgium sent Mirage-3s, Norway gave us Aim-9B Sidewinders( first generation sidewinder missiles). In recent US operations in Iraq, Turkey requested SAM systems, Germany refused to sent Patriots, NATO AWACS barely got approval…These examples show that Turkey can not depend on NATO or EU for Turkey’s protection…
Blackcat,
Dear friend, Upgrading F-16s in that level(radar, avionics, weapon integration, and testing) can be done only by original producers. Turkey produced F-16s under license but mainly structural works, produced wings and engine assembly work have been done in Turkey. In avionics, Turkey only produced LN-39 INS and later LN-93 INS navigation systems in Turkey…Since you gave examples of India, if India has resources and capability to modernize fighters, Indian Mig-21 modernized by Russians. If India can modernize Mig-29s and Jaguars, Mig-21s should be piece of cake for India…
Sahin@Srbin,
S-300 does not look very mobile to me. How many trucks are there in the firing unit? Moving them along with other equipments should take time, especially shipping them to Cyprus…The distance between Crete and Cyprus is about 550-600kms in a straigth route…
SahinDear Fantasma,
TuAF offcially published RfI in 2003 I think and several company(Locheed, Raytheon, Northrop) representatives visited Turkish F-16 squadrons several times, gave briefings and listened TuAF technical requirements including radar upgrades and extensive weapon integration requests. Later this year , US goverment accepted TuAF requests and proposed this sale to the congress. In 15 days, if there is no objection from congress, it will go through…The proposed sale will be final in coming months…You are kind of playing a technical game but this deal is 95% done…
You are dead wrong on SPEWS-II project. Turkish Block-30/40s have already been using ALQ-178V3 EW when SPEWS-II project started for Block-50s. Turkey first picked ALQ-178V5 offered by MIKES/LOCKHEED’s Sanders but this deal could not be finilized because of technical reuqirements could not be satisfied. Then Turkish Defense Industries office invited possible bidders for the project. Then Thales/ASELSAN offered FISTS for F-16s and TuAF accepted this bid because of technical superiority, amount of contract declared 190 million dollars. Then US has intervined and opposed this sale saying that US made a/c can not be installed French EW system. TuAF decided to cancel this deal. Later, Turkish ASELSAN bought MIKES EW company that installed previous ALQ-178V3 Ew suites…LOCKHEED later sold SANDERS shares to BAE systems…In 2002 ASELSAN/BAE systems make a new offer for SPEWS-II and improved ALQ-178V5+ to meet technical requirements of TuAF, including technology transfer and local prodcution of ALQ-178V5+. ASELSAN was prime contractor and previous agrement signed with ASELSAN in the amount of 190 million dollars considered valid by Turkey but Thales eliminated from the contract. Thales did not go to court but won another bid in Turkey for installation of AMOSCOS system into Turkish MPA aircraft CN-235…SPEWS-II started officially in 2003 and because of timing problems it is combined with this deal to save time and money in EW integration. Eventually, EW system installation requires extensive depot level work and OFP updates. Combining SPEWS-II with CCIP will save atleast 40-50 million dollars for Turkey…
Sahin“it sounds more like a sales brochure”
Fantasma, as usual, another blind approach by you on the topic. I know your intention is not naive on this. This is not a sales brochure but it is a proposed agrement between US and Turkey. TuAF has been preparing CCIP program for Block-30/40/50 F-16s since 2003. It is about to be finilized after congress approves the deal.
Idea of leasing out block-30s was considered beacuse there were interested countries in leasing used F-16s but US was not fully supported TuAF in this case because they wanted to make money on older versions…If block-30 were leased, 32 new Block-50+ were to be ordered to replace them…But since we did not lease them we will used them another 15 years after this upgrade program…
SPEWS-II EW system project was not about money, Fantasma, the total cost of the project was only about 190 millon dollars but the reason it was delayed because of Turkey’s insistance on the technology transfer issue…SPEWS-II project signed in 2002 and export lisence has been granted in 2003 but when CCIP upgrade program started in 2003, SPEWS-II combined with CCIP for cost saving purposes. As you know, HAF first picked ELTA EW suite for Greek Block-52+ F-16s then US objected to that idea of using foreign EW system on US made aircraft, then HAF switched to Raytheon and ASPIS offer. As you know, Greek ASPIS-II deal is signed after F-16s started delivery, and some of the F-16 are probably naked….Check Raytheon web site on the date of contract and the cost of the project is about 248 million dollars…
There are long term plans for EF-2000 Typhoons to replace F-4E/2020s if EU and Turkey relations go on track. F-16 CCIP program is ,as you can imagine, about keeping F-16 fleet up to date with current technology….TuAF clearly indicated several times that next 10 years there will be no new platforms acquired but existing platforms will be upgraded…Block-40/50 will be keept active beyond 2015s….
SPEWS-II, Tank-2000 and 145 Attack helo project was under control of Turkish Defense Industries Office and CCIP program is strictly MoD and Air Force program….Things work faster if under Air Force control, ie. F-4E/2020, F-5/2000, CN-235/F-4E/2020 Simulators…
SahinHi Alepou,
Who is in charge of S-300 PMU-1 in Crete? I heard Cypriot personal is operating the system. is it true?
SahinA few missiles or weapons mentioned in the deal just for testing and integration purposes. As beleg stated, ones Us congress approves the deal, actual number of missiles will be contracted with producers under this proposal…In addition to acionics and weapons, this deal also includes structural upgrade of F-16s to serve another 20 years, probably Falcon STAR program will be implemented…The price of whole contract can go up to 3.9 billion if Turkey exercise all options(including number of weapons etc)…
TuAF is clearly aiming for network based(is it called netcentric?) force structure for next decade. For air-air missions, integration of fighters with B-737 AEW&C using Link-16, for air-to-ground missions, SPICE/SLAM-ER(retargeting capability) and using RF-4E/2020/LOROP recce pods to send information to other aircrafts in the air simultaneously to find and aim targets instantly…Upgrade of APG-68 radars to APG-68V9 is clearly aimed at improving air-to-air detection range and air-ground SAR/GMTI modes…
SahinThese pictures are from official Turkish Air Force website and taken during VIP/Press day, high level participants are Air Force Commanders of Pakistan, Italy, Dutch and Turkish. Also retired previous Turkish Air Force commanders are invited as guests of current Air Force Commander Gen. Ibrahim Firtina. You can go and visit official Turkish Air Force website: http://www.hvkk.mil.tr/default.asp
SahinTurkish Air Force have recently posted some pictures from Anatolian Eagle 2004/3:
SahinFor more information about Anatolian Eagle exercise, you can visit oficial Turkish Air Force website:
http://www.hvkk.mil.tr/default.asp
They will probably post some pictures when the exercise moves ahead next week…
SahinEU involment in a possible conflict with Turkey? It depends but it would be a real test for unity of EU. Personally, I doubt EU would send military armada to take over Turkey but more likely senario, they would try to stop the war by diplomacy first. If this does not work, then they can support Greece with military hardware instead of sending their military force as it happen after WW-I in 1920s. Allied countries supported Greece first and encourge them to invade Anatolia, then they left them alone against newly established Republic of Turkey, then Greek army is defeated by Turkish Army at the end. I can not image EU creating a 21 century version of Gelipolu by sending their force over Turkish Army…It would be difficult(or impossible) task for EU…Do you think UK, Spanish, Germans, Italians are ready to fight and die for Greece….BTW, We did not think the role of USA…Would US stay quite or support one side?
Of course, we are talking about a hypothetical war senario and in reality no body wants a war any time. Most of the problems between Greece and Turkey can be solved with bilateral agrements or third party involments. I am 100% sure both sides know meaning of a war that would bring dead and destruction for both sides unless one side acts real stupid and force other side to use military force…
SahinFantasma, FMS does not mean that Turkey will use “military sales credit” from USA, rahter FMS conditions will be used to get training, logistical support and of course a good price in the deal…In FMS you can buy it without military credit being used…In the previous bid, BELL made two different offers. 60% local production offer, including 90% of body with landing gear, avionics integration and engine assembly, price went up to 56 million dolars per unit, this was found too high for Turkish officials, then BELL made a second offer this time a proposed sale under FMS conditions that means very little change in the AH-1Z(almost the same configuration of MARINES), very low Turkish involment, the price went down to around 45 million dollars.
Now, officials says if we are going to buy directly with minimum local involment, we can get better deals from Boeing for AH-64D and EADS for Tiger. In the previous bid, both of them eliminated because of the high price tag they have offered for local production rights…Turkish Land Forces Command is aiming AH-64 as far as I can say but EU-Turkey poilitical game can bring Tiger into equation too…This second bid will be for smaller number of helos, around 20-30 for the first step then, the rest will follow in batches…
SahinTurkey will buy 20-30 directly from outside with a maximum amount of offset to reduce the cost of project. Total requirement revised to 90 attack helos and first package will be between 20-30, then remaining balance will be accured later with options of 10. There is a possiblity of some Turkish local companies will involve or provide software, avionics and EW systems before delivery…
KA-50-2 is not out of the question since local production requirement is no longer wanted…My quess it is either AH-64 or AH-1Z considering possibility of FMS…
SahinCorrection and TuAF order of battle structure:
TuAF operates 220 F-16s (38 Block-30/106 Block-40/76 Block-50) distributed in 11 squadrons, all F-16s squadrons are AMRAAM/Sidewinder capable, some dedicated ground attack squadrons with LGB, Maverick AGM-65G, LANTIRN pods, one suqadron is dedicated SEAD with HARMs. TuAF currently plans to upgrade around 180 F-16 Block-40/50s similar to USAF CCIP modernizasion program that will bring TuAF F-16s up to Block-50/52+ configuration including AGM-68V9 radars, HMD, Aim-9X, Aim-120C, JDAM, JSOW…Operational TuAF F-16 squadrons:
Ankara Akinci Main Jet Base:
141 Block-40 Fighter
142 Block-30 Fighter
143 Block-30 OCU
Merzifon Main Jet Base:
151 Block-50 SEAD
152 Block-50 Fighter
Bandirma Main Jet Base:
161 Block-40 LANTIRN
162 Block-40 Fighter
Diyarbakir Main Jet Base:
181 Block-40 LANTIRN
182 Block-40 Fighter
Balikesir Main Jet Base:
191 Block-50 Ground Attack/Fighter
192 Block-50 Fighter
TuAF also operates 52 F-4E/2020 Terminators which are dedicated to air-ground with Popeye-1/2, LGB, MAvericks and LITENING-III, plus 80 F-4E/RF-4E used as Interceptor and Recce purposes…There are plans to upgrade additional 48 F-4Es and 18 RF-4E, bring them up to F-4E/2020 standards.
Eskisehir Main Jet Base:
111. F-4E/2020 Terminator
112. F-4E Interceptor
113. RF-4E Recce with LOROP pods
Malatya Main Jet Base:
171. F-4E/2020 Terminator
172. F-4E Interceptor
173 RF-4E Recce with LOROP pods
TuAF operates 7 KC-135R tankers to support these squadrons and around 75 CN-235/C-160/C-130E are main transport force….
TuAF Training is done in two different base:
Izmir Cigli Main Jet Base:
SF-260 Basic Flight Training
T-37B/C Basic Jet Training
T-38A Advance Jet Training
Konya Main Jet Base:
131. F4E OCU
132. F-4E and F-5/2000 Aggressor-Tactics
133. F-5/2000 LIFT for F-16s
TuAF CSAR/SAR force includes 6 AS-532 Cougar for CSAR(Carries Special Weapons and equipment) and 14 AS-532 Cougar for SAR, plus 15 UH-1Hs used for liasion flights and utility purposes…
TuAF Air Defense force:
Long Range/High altitute:
72 Nike Hercules(about to be retired, Patriot/Arrow-II is considered for future)
Medium Range/Altitute:
24 I-HAWK-PIP3 launchers with MPQ-64 Sentinel Radars/Konsberg Fire Control Centers
Low Altitute/Short Range
80 Rapier Lauchers/37 Blindfire Fire Control radars upgraded to B1X version, new 800 Rapier Mk-2 missiles started to be assembled in Turkey.
32 Aselsan KMS, each carries 4 ready to fire Stingers-RPM and 12.7mm machine gun for close range…
35mm/40mm short range AA guns supported by D-XI Radar/FLIR weapon control platforms…
Future Plans:
4 Boeing 737 AEW&C(Delivery will start in 2007 and conslude in 2008, +2 possibility)
10 A-400M( delivery will start in 2009 conclude in 2013, (+10 more strong possibility)
150 F-35 (delivery expected in 2013 and Block-30 F-16s/old F-4Es will be replaced by F-35)
XXX EF-2000 (There is an “intention” of accuring some EF-2000s after 2010)
Patriot/Arrow-II/S-300/400 as an anti-balistic missiles purposes…
SahinAm I missing something? Someone said Air force commander is dismissed beacuse of the crash. If Greek Army Aviation is under command of Greek Army, Can you explain why “Air Force” Commander is dismmissed from the command? Isn’t that strange for you too?
Who is piloting Greek P-3B Orions? Air Force or Navy? AFAIK, Hellenic Air Force flies them but orders comes from Hellenic Navy HQ…
@Mystic
I am not Turkey, I am a person who has expressed an opinion about the matter…
SahinIf Fantasma’s numbers are correct, 33 for M-2000Mk-2 for one squadron and 17 M-2000EG left for second squadron is not an optimal allocation of Mirages. Either upgrade all EGs to Mk-2 standards and equally distribute them into two squadrons or do not upgrade additional 5 Eg’s and let them fly in the current congfiguration that leaves 28 M-2000Mk-2 for one squadron, 22 EGs for the second squadron…There are avionics and cokpit differences between M-2000EG and Mk-2 and pilots can not be qualified for both…
Regards
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