SahinIf it is not Air Force Commander’s fault, why do you think it is a good move to take him out? Is it because of the importance of passengers on board? Or Are there other things that was going bad in the Greek Air Force played a role in this decision?
I think Greek military aviation structure should be changed totally. Greek Army Aviation should be commanded by Army not by an Air Force General. Similarly, Greek Navy P-3 are officially belongs to Greek Air Force. Marine matters should be dealt by Navy not by an Air Force….All flying vehicles belongs to Air force idea does not make sense to me in 21 century…
SahinHi Phantom-II,
I think it is better if I explain TuAF’s thinking and role of F-4E in TuAF inventory. During 1970s and 1980s Turkish F-4Es were the most modern fighter a/c in TuAF, the inventory included F-104 and F-5s also. After the delivery of F-16s in 1987, the role has been changed, F-4E got the second place in TuAF force structure. F-16s are now the primary fighter force with total of 11 F-16 squadronds. These are
141sq block-40 Fighter/Intercepter/Weapons and Tactics
142sq block-30 Fighter/Intercepter
143sq block-30 OCU/Fighter
161sq Block-40 LANTIRN Dedicated attack
162sq block-40 Fighter
151sq block-50 SEAD/ESCORT
152sq block-50 Fighter/Intercepter
181sq block-40 LANTIRN Dedicated attack
182sq block-40 Fighter/Intercepter
191sq block-50 Fighter/Bomber
192sq block-50 Fighter/Intercepter
As we all know, F-16s are good in close combat and in BVR arena after introduction of AMRAAM. Special missions such as SEAD/DEAD/Low Level Attacks are also performed by F-16s. What is the role of F-4Es in TuAF? In 1995/95, there was some considerations to phase out F-4Es and introduce a second multirole fighter a/c type into TuAF since some of the F-4Es were approaching the end of their useful service life. It was clear that the real need of TuAF was dedicated deeep strike fighter a/c that can cary more bombs and weapons into enemy territory. F-16s are considered good enough for other type of missions but as we know F-16s lacks range and weapons capability due to its size . After searching possible candidates to replace around 80 F-4Es in this role, no candidate found from the list mainly due to cost and avaliability reasons. F-15E was the first choice but as we know how many countries can buy it? It was decided that F-4E Kurnas solution can fullfil the need in a reasonable cost and in a faster time frame.
So, in short, Turkish F-4E/2020 turned into a poor man’s F-15E with a similar capabilities in air-to-gorund…In this respect, new EL/M-2032 radar on F-4E/2020s claimed to be superior to on F-16s in both air-air/air-ground modes. Especially, SAR spot mode and GPS/INS integration proven to be deadly and even simple Mk-82/83/84 series bombs can be dropped from medium altitutes in high accuracy (less than 30 feet CEP from medium altitutes). SAR spot mode also allows self determination and aiming Popeye’s in stand-off ranges…All of these things can be done at night and in bad weather…IIR MAverick and LGB capabilities will be futher improved after receining LITENING-III pods. Turkish pilots claims that this new radar is similar to APG-73 in operational capabilities…I did not surprise when I heard IDF pilots claims that EL/M-2032 is superior to APG-68V9 radar that have been used by F-16I and F-16 block-52+…Some people think that EL/M-2032 has been used in Chile F-5s and Romania Mig-21 LANCERs, what is this noise about it? The new version of EL/M-2032 has been developed specifically for Turkish F-4E upgrade project. Power output increased, antanna size is increased to fit in F-4E nose, memory and processor speed increased and of course the detection range of the radar is also incrreased to now 80 nm in air-to-air/air-to-gorund and 160nm in air-sea modes. Most importantly, new operation modes such as air-ground SAR spot, SAR/GMTI, air-sea ISAR modes are added..It took 2 years for ELTA to develop this new version during upgrade of F-4E/2032 project…ELTA now is marketing this same radar for F-16 ACE modernization project…
After 54 F-4E/2020 upgraded and devided into 2 squadrons, there are 4 more Phantom squadrons that uses F-4Es in original configuration and 2 RF-4E squadrons. These are
111sq F-4E/2020 Deep Strike/Bomb Truck
112sq F-4E Fighter/intercepter
113sq RF-4E Recce/LOROP pods
131sq F-4E OCU
132sq F-4E Weapond and Tactics/Fighter/Intercepter
171sq F-4E/2020 Deep Strike/Bomb Truck
172sq F-4E Fighter/intercepter
173sq RF-4E Recce/LOROP
Current plans: I heard that TuAF is planning to reorganise F-4E squadrons and there are several possiblities that includes 131/132 squadrons can be combined and serve as OCU, 2 of the RF-4E squadrons can be reduced to 1 by combining all RF-4Es in one large single squadron(113sq maybe)…It is almost certain that 48 of the remaining non-upgraded F-4Es will be upgraded and serve in 112 and 172 squadrons that are dedicated intercepters. If this second upgrade is done, then TuAF would operate 100 F-4E/2020s and 20-25 RF-4Es even after 2010…
The last and the most I like, F-5/2000 upgrade project is currently under way and and more than 30 F-5/2000 delivered, remaining 18 or so will be delivered until 2005. F-5/2000 will serve as LIFT a/c for both F-16 and F-4E/2020…HUD, HOTAS, MFD, INS/GPS, Have Quick U/VHF radios, AVTR, new mission computers, structural upgrade in wings/frame/cables and Mk-16L Ejection Seats used in the project. All of them will give new life for 48 NF/F-5A/B until 2015 or later…
SahinMy problem with EF-2000 is it is too late(at least 10 years) and costly for what is offered in Tranche-1/2. Why not cancel Tranche-1/2 and combine Tranche-1/2/3 in a single block and save some money in the future upgrades? It does not look smart to buy an inferior a/c now and pay for upgrades in a couple of years…To me, it is more like a political move than military decision…Do you think, German or UK air forces will be happy with mechanical scanned radar while everybody switching to AESA? Or Trust Vectoring? Why not wait a couble of years more and get all the new technology in a single block?
SahinJust how capable is the local Turkish arms industry? Frankly, I’m rather sceptical about their being able to locally upgrade their Phantoms to the 2020 configuration.
Seems to be a lot of talk of indigenization within the Turkish arms circles as of late; talk of building their own MBTs as well, or in cooperation with the Pakistanis using their Al-K.
Turkish local industry gained some upgrade capabilities in the past and wants to use them now for similar projects. When IAI and Turkey first signed F-4E upgrade project in 1997, part of the deal was the transfer of technology includes avionics integration, operational flight programming writing capability, structural life extention and EW suite installation, finally, the training of some Turkish avionics engineers and test pilots were also part of the deal……A System Integration Lab(SIL) has been established in Turkey and the same lab has been used to developed a full mission simulator for F-4E/2020s without help of other countries…Details of F-4E/2020 and CN-235 simulators can be seen in the following link from Turkish aviation electronics and software company HAVELSAN:
http://www.havelsan.com.tr/eng_urun_25.htm
http://www.havelsan.com.tr/eng_urun_23.htm
F-5/2000 upgrade project has been done in a similar fashion and IAI/ELBIT/SAI was main avionics integrators, these companies establihed a SIL in Turkey and worked with Turkish avinonics engineers in the design stage. This project was also aimed at gaining capabilites and upgrading T-38 in the future in a similar project…All of the 48 F-5s upgraded in Turkey after initial 4 prototypes were tested and project design objectives are accumplished…
The main idea: An “upgrade” similar to F-4E/2020 can be done in Turkey by Turkish companies and engineers. In a similar upgrade, all avionics integration, OFP writing, testing work have been done in the past, you have the know-how and trained labor force, so you can do similar work cheaper than outside…Of course, some avionics like EL/M-2032 Radars, HUDs, HOTAS and Mission Computers will be imported and some avionics parts already produced in Turkey such as LN-100G GPS/INS navigation system, colour MFDs, Have Quick U/VHF radios, IFF, EW equipment will be used in the project…You have already gainied capability, Why do you invite some other guy to do the same work with more money?
We are not designing a brand new stealth aircraft here, F-4E has been in Turkish inventory more than 30 years and full depot maintanance capability has been in Turkey since 1980s…Turkey already upgraded relatively new 54 F-4E/2020s in air-ground configuration. The remaining much older FY 67-68 F-4E(used for air-air) needs to be upgraded or they have to be retired and replaced by new airpanes…
You have a choice..If you have money and resources, you can buy whatever in the market that your budget allows to buy…What are the options? Around 50 new 4. generation airplanes are needed to replace older F-4Es…TuAF has already 220 F-16(block-30/4-/50) and 52 F-4E/2020 in the inventory. TuAF does not want to buy more F-16s since F-16s are to be replaced by F-35s after 2012. TuAF alway wants to balance the inventory with two different fighters that complement each other and are multirole…For this the reason other candidates like EF-2000s, F-15Es, Rafale are considered but the cost of replacing F-4Es with a 4. generation airplane is huge now…Even contries richer than Turkey like UK is having troubles with EF-2000 project and trying to save money…Turkey’s economical position is to save money as much as possible now. Investing 300 million dollars into 48 F-4Es and upgrading them to n 3. generation fighter standards seen enough for TuAF until economy improves and more resources is available for replacement…Keep in mind that 52 F-4E/2020s are already in the inventory and will fly until 2015-2010 at least..
Sahin@EREZ,
TuAF ordered 40 F-4E Phantoms “brand new” in 1973 and delivery started in August of 1974. Then the second order followed 32 F-4E and 8 RF-4E in 1977 and delivery started in 1978. 5000th Phantom is also received by TuAF and still active, went through Terminator upgrade program…So, 72 F-4E and 8 RF-4E came brand new from US between 1974 and 1979. 54 of the surviving brand new machines went through Terminator upgrade program.
TuAF also took delivery of 125 ex-USAF Phantoms in several packages, 15 in 1981, 15 in 1984, 15 in 1986, 40 in 1987, 40 in 1991. These machines are probably have high hours since most of them built between 1966-1968. TuAF plans to upgrade 48 of these surviving machines to give them another 15 years of flying time.
Germany donated 46 RF-4E to TuAF in 1992, 12 of them canabilised and 34 went to active service in TuAF. 18 of the remaining machines will go through strcutural and avionic upgrade…
SahinAMRAAM is fire and forget and has active radar seeker, in the final stage AMRAAM uses its own radar to lock on tagret but there is a danger here. Air War can be very fluid and every second tactical picture can change, especially in a very comfined air space. Once you fired AMRAAM it willl fly to last INS coordinate and then look for a target that suppose to be nearby and lock on this target with own radar. The danger is blue force can be nearby and AMRAAM can lock on them since it can not discriminate friendly from enemy. You have to be certain that there is no friendly a/c nearby enemy when you fire AMRAAMs. AWACS coordination is very very important in BVR fight…On the other hand, even though Aim-7 Sparrow is old and semi-active missile, it can work perfect in certain conditions. You fire and guide Sparrow until it hits the target, you know who is the target and make sure that you destroy it. Of course assuming that new generation Sparrows are better and reliable…I think this is the reason USAF F-15C still caryy both AMRAAMs and Sparrows…Improved version or new version of AMRAAM Aim-120D will use two-way datalink to over come some of the targeting difficulties as I described above…..
On ships, you dont see active guided missile usually. SM-1/2, or ESSM/Sparrows are all semi active missiles…the same reason, you want to hit the targets that most important for you, maybe an anti-ship missile or aircraft, so you direct your missile on the target and make sure you destroy it.
SahinPII, don’t expect to see many 2020 pictures.
The Turkish AF is rarely flying the F-4s. And not because they are old or something, it just that the Turkish AF almost doesn’t fly at all. They don’t train much compared to other AFs. The F-4s are flying about once a month. I’ve also been two times in Turkey and never saw a fighter jet in the sky. It’s hard to believe but ask any Turkish you want, he will confirm it.
That’s one of the reasons they can keep them flying until 2020, unlike us – we had machines with so many flying hours they could only fly once in two weeks. I don’t think there is any reason for the Turks to want our tired F-4s.
Unless of course they will want to upgrade them. That’s rather unlikely for two reasons:
1) It doesn’t worth it in terms of money. Even with upgrade they won’t fly for long.
2) The Turkish AF will most likely focus on its fleet of F-16s in the years to come.But hey, I’m not sad, and you shouldn’t be too. The Terminator will fly until 2020, maybe even more. Phantom Phorever 😉
Hi EREZ,
Your information about TuAF F-4E/2020s is wrong. You dont see a/c in the sky does not mean that they dont fly. As you know Turkey is much much bigger then Israel and we have special areas for military exercises and flights, they dont fly over public areas usually…TuAF training is very intense indeed, average flying hour for a regular squadron pilot is around 180-200 hours. TuAF matto is “train as if you are going to fight”. Most Turkish Main Jet bases have a gunnery range close by for training purposes and DACT exercises are very common between different bases. they try to intercept each other. Anatolian Eagle exercise takes place 3 times a year at 3 rd Main Jet base in Konya, Tukey, nearby EW Training site is fully integrated with ACMI system and has “real” SAM systems…
Life of the Turkish Terminators extended another 6,000 hours by replacing critical structural parts, lines, cables and other important parts. F4E-“2020” indicates 20 years of flying time, 300 hours per year on the average. 2 squadrons of F-4E/2020s are main ground attack force in the TuAF and there is a strong possibilty of additional F-4E and RF-4E upgrades in Turkey similar to Terminator standarts.
TuAF already invested considerable amount of money into Terminator project. Avionics integration lab is established, OFP capability gained, new EW/RWR systems is integrated, and most important of all new training facilities for Terminators is built, including full mission simulators produced by Turkish company HAVELSAN. TuAF wants to use this investment and upgrade another 40-48 F-4Es in addition to 54 Terimnators…Turkey has 30 years of experience in F-4E and operations, they want to keep this structure another 15 years until F-35 arrives for replacement of F-4s…Having 220 F-16s in the inventory and already planned CCIP upgrade for 180 of the 220 F-16s, It would be certain that TuAF will keep F-16 block-40/50s another 20 years at least…
Around 20 LITENING-II/( or III) pods for Terminators will be purchased from Israel in coming months. TuAF wants to keep around 20 RF-4Es operational at least 15 years, in the mean time, RF-4E squadrons recently received LOROP recce pods and Ground Stations. These pods are already used in real missions to gather data and pictures around Turkey…
F-4E/2020 Terminators repeated the same success this year and won the TuAF 2004 best hit competition in 3rd genaration aircraft category, leaving F-16s behind again… It is not a surprise actually, EL/M-2032 SAR mode and radar lay down features improved CEP even from medium altitutes(20,000 feet). Mk-80 series bombs can be dropped on the target less than 30 feet CEP from 20,000 feet…
@Phantom-II,
If you want to see Turkish Terminator pictures, either go to official TuAF web site, http://www.hvkk.mil.tr or search over the internet….
SahinTurkish Air Force(TuAF) still flies 4 more F-4E(non-upgraded) squadrons, 2 F-4E/2020 Terminator(upgraded), 2 RF-4E squadrons.
111. Panter filo F-4E/2020 (Deep Strike/Bomber)
112. Devil filo F-4E(Fighter/Intercepter)
113. Light filo RF-4E( Recce)
131.Dragon filo F-4E(OCU, F-4E Training)
132. Dagger filo F-4E(Weapons and Tactics)
171. Pirates filo F-4E/2020(Deep Strike/Bomber)
172. Falcon filo F-4E (Fighter/Intercepter)
173. Dawn filo RF-4E (Recce)
An interesting patch from TuAF and a recent picture( a few days old) from a live firing exercise presentation, Popeye can be seen under the wing…
SahinNew genaration S-70B Seahawk….
SahinTurkish Air Force(TuAF) F-16s logged 32,000 hours of flight time without accident or abort between 1993 and 2001 over Bosnia and Kosova under NATO command. In Operation Allied Action(Kosova War), Turkish 191. KOBRA squadron F-16s dropped total of 42 tons of bombs in CAS sorties and flew CAP missions with AIM-120B AMRAAMS and AIM-9M Sidewinders. In one of the combat missions, 2 Turkish F-16s stayed airborne more than 9 hours and 30 minutes with 4 air refueling conducted at night. This was a record time for Turkish F-16 pilots. Besides Bosnia and Kosova wars, TuAF participated PKK operations in Northern Iraq, participated Red Flag-97/2000 with a success, Anatolian Eagle exercise are is developed to give constant training for TuAF and Allied pilots. Anatolian Eagle is a replica of the Red Flag and it contains EW training area, ACM area with dedicated aggressors(F-16s and F-5/2000)and real SAM threats add reality in the exercise for preparing pilots for future air wars.
To give forumers some insight about TuAF, I would like to give summary of inventory:
220 F-16 Block-30/40/50 including 2 LANTIRN squadrons with Block-40s since 1994. First Operational LANTIRN squadron operated by TuAF after USAF since 1994. LANTIRN squadrons operate Paveway-II LGBs, MAverick AGM-65D/G, Cluster bombs, Mk-series bombs. After planned CCIP upgrade program, JHMS with Aim-9X, Popeye-2, GPS guided weapons are expected to be in service around 2008. Currently TuAF has around 300 AMRAAMS in the inventory mostly Aim-120A and Bs. Only SEAD squadron 151. Tunc squadron operates AGM-88B HARMs…
52 F-4E/2020 Terminators with advance cockpit, EL/M-2032 SAR/GMTI radar, EL/M-2022 ECM pods and Popeye-1/2 capability. Additional “old” 60 F-4Es are in use today, possibility of upgrade and extending their life under consideration.
38 RF-4E with LOROP rec. pods that can download instant data and pictures to ground stations. 42 Pods had been ordered in 1999 and first pods entered service in 2003.
48 F-5/2000 are used for LIFT purposes for advance pilot training. These F-5s gained new cockpits with new generation avionics including HUD,HOTAS, GPS/INS Navigation, MFDs, UHF/VHF Have Quick radios, VTRs, and new MK-15J ejection seats.
7 KC-135R Tankers cockpits upgraded in PACER CRAG program.
13 C-130B/E, 18 C-160, 50 CN-235 are in use for transportation duties.
20 AS-532AL Cougars deployed around the country for CSAR/SAR missions. In addition, around 14 UH-1H also operated for SAR duties.
For the future:
4 B-737 AEW&C contract is signed with an option of 2 additional airplanes. Expected delivery will be in 2007-2008.
150-200 F-35A is expected to be ordered by TuAF to replace F-16s and F-4s after 2010. Turkey is Level-II participant in the project.
10 A-400M ordered. Turkey is participating A-400M project and will receive one of the first production a/c to replace C-130s.
I hope the information above gives some idea about the capabilities of TuAF.
Regards
Feridun
SahinEverything you wrote is true except back seater was a Turkish pilot Lt. Col Cemil Cicekli who just returned from U.K after serving two years as a military attache. The claim of back seater was IDF pilot came from someone in Greece(probably from HAF) saying that rescued pilot did not speak Turkish but speaking good English…I dont see the relationship of speaking good english and being IDF pilot? Lt Col Cicekli later explainded that he did not talk to Greek officers in Turkish but they asked questions in English. I also personally watched Greek TV show in my cable channel in US after the shot down, Lt Col Cicekli was talking to the press in English. So, IDF pilot claim is totally bogus…
As far as why this happened, according to Turkish pilot Lt Col Cicekli, Greek pilot Grivas who fired the Magic-II visited him in the hospital right after the rescue and he said “I am sorry I forgot that Arm Switch was On”. This explanation is also coonfirmed by a Greek source(probably a F-16 pilot) in http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-755-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-0.html So, this is the only reasonable explanation we have so far…
SahinI suspected the same, Arthur. Sharkmouth painted F-4Es are property of TuAF nowadays but before TuAF, there was USAF as you know. Turkish sharks are used mainly in air-to-air role in 112. and 172. squadrons but I dont see that they will see 2010 unless TuAF do something about avionics and structure. There are “rumors” that TuAF will accure some(20-30) of IDF F-4E Kurnass to support F-4E/2020 Terminators until F-35 arrives…Maybe someone from Israel can give us insight about this rumor…
SahinHi PLA,
About the second F-4E photo you have posted. Which nationality is that?
SahinHi Phantom-II
When Turkey decided to upgrade F-4Es, original plan was to use APG-76 built by NORDEN. But later this plan dropped from the table because of expense and tech transfer difficulties from the US. IAI proposed ELTA EL/M-2032 radar with new air-to-ground modes, increased power, bigger antenna and processing speeds for the Turkish requirements. ELTA’s radar was cheaper than APG-76 and IAI proposed transfer of source codes and help to eslablish system integration lab in Turkey. The selection of EL/M-2032 came up on the Turkish press during 1997-1998, some argued that EL/M-2032 is inferior to APG-76 in terms of capabilities. TuAF made its decision after series of test flights and decided that this Turkish version of EL/M-2032 satisfies its needs. Of course, main advantage of selecting EL/M-2032 is to control of radar software and madification rights given to Turkey. Turkish version of EL/M-2032 started serial procution in 2000. The previous versions of EL/M-2032 has been used in Romanian Mig-21 Lancer, F-5E/F in Chile. The following is a press release from IAI/ELTA on Feb 21,2000:
***********
After successful flight tests, ELTA, a subsidiary of Israel Aircraft Industries, Ltd (IAI), has begun serial production of the multi-mode airborne fire control radar (FCR). The FCR was developed for the F-4 Turkish Upgrade Program. ELTA’s share in the program is valued at about $150 million.
Designated as EL/M-2032 the FCR was designed “By Pilots, for Pilots” oriented for, both air-to-air and air-to-ground strike missions.
In air-to-air modes, the FCR is able to operate in Look-up and Look-down geometric enabling long range target detection and tracking for weapon (missile) delivery or target acquisition in close combat situations. As such, the FCR is able to cope with any existing threat in its area.
The high resolution capabilities of the FCR are used mainly for air-to-ground missions.
The air-to-ground modes include surface (ground and sea) target detection, ranging, terrain avoidance and high resolution mapping by DBS and Spot SAR.
ELTA’s EL/M-2032 is flying operationally onboard Kfir, Mirage, F-5, MIG21 Aircraft, and is planed to fly onboard the F-16 Avionics Capabilities Enhancement (ACE) used for demonstrations to customers interested in Mid-Life Upgrade to their F-16s.
Modular hardware and software design, software controlled, adaptable antenna shape and flexible avionic interfaces ensure that the FCR can be installed on additional multimission fighters with minimum modifications to aircraft.
After successfully passing the test flights for the F-4 Turkish Upgrade Program, ELTA started the serial production.
Today ELTA’s EL/M-2032 is considered among the most advanced Fire Control Radars for fighter aircraft in the upgrade markets.
************
SahinELTA’s EL/M-2032 radar has been used in Turkish F-4E/2020 Terminator ugrade and some other a/c upgrades(F-5E, Mig-21). EL/M-2032 in Turkish F-4Es is different from other versions of EL/M-2032 in terms of power, processiong speed, memory, and antenna size. Feedbacks from Turkish pilots are positive and they like the radar very much. Especially, SAR(Syntetic Aparture Radar) mode is exellent for air-to-ground missions and gives high resolution ground pictures comparable to F-15E’s APG-70 radar. With SAR mode Turkish F-4E/2020 Terminators can perfom all weather, day or night strike mission with high accuracy even with Mk-80 series bombs. Popeye-1/2, GBU-10/16/24 and AGM-65 Maverick are integrated with SAR mode in EL/M-2032. Clearly, Turkey gained a huge strike capability with F-4E/2020s. In recent year, F-4E/2020s won air-to-ground hit compation in Turkey by beating F-16s in all categories…
Sign In
