skytheRE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-07-02 AT 07:23 AM (GMT)]”It is nothing to do with modern Europe that persecution arose. The faults lay with a far older generation “
So what? No one’s talking about fault, no one’s looking for compensation. This is about learning from past history, from events that still take place today and things that may yet happen in the future. The actual source of Anti-semitism is not of importance to this discussion. The fact that it exists is.
“I am doubtful that Jews do suffer more than other groups.”
Right now, no, but this is of little relevance. This whole thread is not about who suffered more or less, but about the fact that certain persecution has existed long enough to create the need for a separate state. Jewish rights do not compete with the rights of other people, no matter whether their suffering is larger or smaller.
“Indians and Pakistanis could do the same about Hindus and Muslims.”
Exactly. And should the need arise they could always return to India and Pakistan. Muslims alone have over 60 independent states, many of which clearly define themselves as Islamic republics (Iran, Afghanistan) or Islamic kingdoms (Morocco, Saudi Arabia). But a Jewish state? Heaven forbid …
“I do not accept that Jews faced more discrimination than blacks. Simple as that. I don’t feel the need to prove this point, as it is defensive. Your counter argument ought to be proven first – what studies can you point to?”
Then we’ll agree to disagree. I can’t point to any studies, what I can is point to 2000 years of history culminating in the destruction of a third of the world’s Jewish population. That and the fact that the nations of Africa are a given fact while a Jewish state is someting that the world has not yet come to grips with.
“So why can’t there be a black homeland?”
What exactly would you call the nations of Africa? Blacks have chosen to define themselves by criteria that extend beyond skin color (there you go again, ethnicity is beyonf the physical) and as such no single black nation exists. Should that change and they decide that blacks are one people then you could see a black homeland.
“Well, there isn’t and rightly so. Nor should there be a Jewish one. Or, for that matter, a muslim one either.”
That’s a very nice sentiment. Yes, we should all live in a united Earth with no discrimination at all. But reality dictates otherwise.
Furthermore, as you yourself said, Mongu, you live in a Christian state. Yes, I know, Britain is a great democracy where all religions are completely equal, with complete separation of church and state etc. but those are ideals that don’t really exist in full in any nation on Earth. Your head of state is also the head of the Anglican church, Oxford Street is decorated with Christmas trees every December, and your schools and media celebrate Christian holidays. No, it is not a religious authocracy, it is a very free society, but even you cannot deny it’s Christianity. Yes, others religions abound, but they also do in Israel, so why can’t it define itself as Jewish?
“come on, you can’t compare Israel to the UK. One is a mature state which has heavily influenced the modern world”
“I am trying to highlight the absurd notion that the UK could be stripped of soveriegnty; whereas this is maybe a little more feasible with Israel”
What is absurd is the notion held by the nationals of certain countries that their countries have more rights, more “maturity” or are more important or senior than any other states in the world, that their people deserve indepedence while others apparently don’t. The very notion stinks of arrogance anchored centuries in the past, back in the days of colonialism, back in the days when Europeans thought they were doing the “savages” some favour by endouring them with their culture and influence. Britain is not more nor less important that Israel, or Syria, or Nepal, or East Timor, or Japan, or Peru, or Bolivia, or Liberia, or Eritrea. Wake up, Mongu, Britannia no longer rules the waves!
Besides, do you think you’re the only one who can play that game? You want to talk about maturity? We Jews had our culture and indepedence when your people were still sun-worshiping cave-dwellers. Our culture is the basis for the beliefs of billions of people around the world. Maybe we should begin taking royalties for the use of the Bible! And what about the Romans, Greeks, Chinese, Egyptians and many others, are those mature enough that they deserve (thanks Garry) sovreignty, or should they be stripped of their indepedence? What is the criteria?
Frankly, I’m surprised. I had always thought that such sentiment, whereby certain people are more important or deserve certain rights while others don’t, is a thing of the past. Maybe we Israelis should be grateful for enlightened European interest in our affairs! You undoubtedly know what’s good for us!
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-07-02 AT 07:23 AM (GMT)]”It is nothing to do with modern Europe that persecution arose. The faults lay with a far older generation “
So what? No one’s talking about fault, no one’s looking for compensation. This is about learning from past history, from events that still take place today and things that may yet happen in the future. The actual source of Anti-semitism is not of importance to this discussion. The fact that it exists is.
“I am doubtful that Jews do suffer more than other groups.”
Right now, no, but this is of little relevance. This whole thread is not about who suffered more or less, but about the fact that certain persecution has existed long enough to create the need for a separate state. Jewish rights do not compete with the rights of other people, no matter whether their suffering is larger or smaller.
“Indians and Pakistanis could do the same about Hindus and Muslims.”
Exactly. And should the need arise they could always return to India and Pakistan. Muslims alone have over 60 independent states, many of which clearly define themselves as Islamic republics (Iran, Afghanistan) or Islamic kingdoms (Morocco, Saudi Arabia). But a Jewish state? Heaven forbid …
“I do not accept that Jews faced more discrimination than blacks. Simple as that. I don’t feel the need to prove this point, as it is defensive. Your counter argument ought to be proven first – what studies can you point to?”
Then we’ll agree to disagree. I can’t point to any studies, what I can is point to 2000 years of history culminating in the destruction of a third of the world’s Jewish population. That and the fact that the nations of Africa are a given fact while a Jewish state is someting that the world has not yet come to grips with.
“So why can’t there be a black homeland?”
What exactly would you call the nations of Africa? Blacks have chosen to define themselves by criteria that extend beyond skin color (there you go again, ethnicity is beyonf the physical) and as such no single black nation exists. Should that change and they decide that blacks are one people then you could see a black homeland.
“Well, there isn’t and rightly so. Nor should there be a Jewish one. Or, for that matter, a muslim one either.”
That’s a very nice sentiment. Yes, we should all live in a united Earth with no discrimination at all. But reality dictates otherwise.
Furthermore, as you yourself said, Mongu, you live in a Christian state. Yes, I know, Britain is a great democracy where all religions are completely equal, with complete separation of church and state etc. but those are ideals that don’t really exist in full in any nation on Earth. Your head of state is also the head of the Anglican church, Oxford Street is decorated with Christmas trees every December, and your schools and media celebrate Christian holidays. No, it is not a religious authocracy, it is a very free society, but even you cannot deny it’s Christianity. Yes, others religions abound, but they also do in Israel, so why can’t it define itself as Jewish?
“come on, you can’t compare Israel to the UK. One is a mature state which has heavily influenced the modern world”
“I am trying to highlight the absurd notion that the UK could be stripped of soveriegnty; whereas this is maybe a little more feasible with Israel”
What is absurd is the notion held by the nationals of certain countries that their countries have more rights, more “maturity” or are more important or senior than any other states in the world, that their people deserve indepedence while others apparently don’t. The very notion stinks of arrogance anchored centuries in the past, back in the days of colonialism, back in the days when Europeans thought they were doing the “savages” some favour by endouring them with their culture and influence. Britain is not more nor less important that Israel, or Syria, or Nepal, or East Timor, or Japan, or Peru, or Bolivia, or Liberia, or Eritrea. Wake up, Mongu, Britannia no longer rules the waves!
Besides, do you think you’re the only one who can play that game? You want to talk about maturity? We Jews had our culture and indepedence when your people were still sun-worshiping cave-dwellers. Our culture is the basis for the beliefs of billions of people around the world. Maybe we should begin taking royalties for the use of the Bible! And what about the Romans, Greeks, Chinese, Egyptians and many others, are those mature enough that they deserve (thanks Garry) sovreignty, or should they be stripped of their indepedence? What is the criteria?
Frankly, I’m surprised. I had always thought that such sentiment, whereby certain people are more important or deserve certain rights while others don’t, is a thing of the past. Maybe we Israelis should be grateful for enlightened European interest in our affairs! You undoubtedly know what’s good for us!
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
Wow, replying to two such prolific posters at the same time is quite daunting. I’ll be getting back to Mongu at a later date. This one’s for Garry.
“I compared your opinion that Jews were a seperate race … not to damage your genitalia.”
Garry, my reply about equating Israel to the Nazis was intended for Seahawk and was in relation to a recent event in Germany. If you read his response you will see he understood my intention clearly enough. It was not related to our discussion.
I would like, however, to point out that I did not say Jews were a race (I don’t even know what a ‘race’ is) but rather an ethnic group. There’s a big difference between the two, at least from my point of view. As I’ve already mentioned, I don’t think ethnicity is physical alone.
“persist in suggesting that a religion and an ethnic group are the same thing”
But I did not say that! I wasn’t talking about religion in general, but specifically about Judaism, and I have quite clearly explained why. Of course religion is not the same as ethnicity, but to label Judaism as merely a religion lacks historical perspective.
“I see Palestinian homes being demolished for another Jewish settlement”
Settlements are indeed built and Palestinians homes are indeed demolished but the two events have very little in relation to one another. That’s a common misconception, that’s simply not the way settlements are built. But that’s an entirely different subject to the one at hand …
“I wonder if the way things have been done in the last 50 years whether you deserve it.”
Excuse me; you wonder if we “deserve” it? Israel exists not by virtue but by right, we do not have to justify our existence. We “deserve” it, as much as any other state “deserves” to exist. Have you ever wondered if Germany “deserves” to exist or if Brazil “deserves” so? That’s quite an arrogant statement, Garry, wouldn’t you say? In fact, I would go as far as to say that such sentiment is exactly why we deserve it!
“If Jewish people were a seperate ethnic group then Hitler would not have needed the help of early IBM machines to create a census… they could have just walked down the street pointing out all the jews.”
IF ethnicity was physical alone, yes, but that’s not the case, it’s far more abstract than that. It was exactly the Nazis who sought to formulate ethnicity or race through physical stereotypes and such pseudo-scientific notions as racial Darwinism.
Our problem, Garry, is that you seem to think that I claim that the moment a man converts to Judaism he suddenly drops out of the local collective and into another one, as if he undergoes some deep transformation, as if his DNA is somehow changed! You misunderstand me; I don’t think so at all. What I’m saying is that the man has just gained another facet to an already multi-faceted personality (as anyone is), which is beyond his mere religious beliefs. He is now not only all he was before but also a part of the Jewish nation. This may be insignificant at many moments of his life, and will certainly be so in current Western society, but there may come a time when it will be more than that, and not necessarily by the man’s choice. As I said, this is an abstract notion, not one for which a formula exists.
“I certainly wouldn’t run away from the problem.”
That’s a simplistic, if not chauvinistic, sentiment, not one by which millions of people can lead their lives. Do you think that all Jews should have opted to stay put in Europe just to avoid losing face? You do what you have to do, and if that calls for independence, then so be it.
“this stupidity can be based on ethnic hatred or religious hatred and therefore is not evidence that the Jewish people are an ethnic group.”
I disagree. Anti-Semitism is a hatred the world is simply unable to shake, just look at the length of time it has persisted (The story of Jews using young boys’ blood for Passover rituals was born in Britain sometime around the 12th century. You can still find it repeated to this day, the latest was in a Saudi newspaper only a few weeks ago). It may be small scale in certain parts of the world, but in others it is not. Unlike you, I can’t dismiss it as mere stupidity, but rather as such an ancient, lasting and sometimes lethal phenomenon as to bring about the definition of Judaism as more than a religion.
“The Gypsies have a similar history and some could say that the American Indians have had and continue to have a raw deal, yet they do not try to separate themselves from the rest of the world “
Because they’ve either not wished it so or because they were never given the choice or chance to do so. Besides, the point is irrelevant. Just because Native Americans don’t have a state of their own do not deny any other group this right.
“You have refused the PA the same so far.”
Oh please, as if that is what the whole Mid-East conflict is about, Israelis denying Palestinians their self-determination. Yes, let us all forget about the 1947 Palestine Partition Plan that the Palestinians rejected, or consecutive attempts to destroy Israel, or the still persistent incitement against the very existence of Israel, or 50 years of terrorism and de-legitimization. There are grievances on both sides of the conflict, you know, and oversimplifying it will hardly move us towards resolution.
“Did the world not take in Jewish orphans after WWII?”
Yes it did, but that a small detail in a much bigger picture. Israel, who was 600,000 strong upon its formation, took in over one million people in the years following its creation. Not really on the same scale, I think.
“(Growl… we are an evil anti semetic world…)”
I don’t really think so, but at least I know there’s one place in the world which I am sure is free of that sickness …
“That must be the US… or has their support been of no help at all?”
Actually, it has been of immense use, and that’s only one reason why we appreciate it so much. A country that actually translates values into deeds, unlike other who dispense unhelpful quasi-moral diatribe from behind their fortress walls, n’est pas? }>
“It is a shame you choose to make a joke of what happened in South Africa.”
No I didn’t, lighten up.
“Sorry for my ignorance but can some English posters on this forum please post some pictures from Heathrow airport where any Jews who try to sneak into Britain are taken aside and shot. Perhaps a few Belgian posters can show pictures of the pits where they put all of the Jews who try to enter Europe by sea are burned?”
Yes, let’s be extreme instead of actually dealing with facts. White settlers in Zimbabwe are descended from Europeans and are culturally almost the same. European nations would take them in without a second thought. What country in Europe would accept entire Jewish populations now wishing to leave. let’s say, Tunisia? They’d hardly even take individuals without the hassles of current immigration, but thousands of people? Only one nation would …
“What I am trying to point out is that in trying to create your own state to avoid oppression of jews you are creating another state that oppresses minorities”
One has nothing to do with the other. Almost all countries of the world are nation states to one degree or another. Does the existance of a Japanese state automatically suggest any other minorities are oppressed? The fact that discrimination exists in Israel today does not necessarily mean it should be dealt with outside the framework of an Israeli state, does it?
“I mean it is not even OK to marry palestinians!!! What does this say about your new country.”
The fact that such events don’t often take place is because of the tragic events underway around us. It does not mean it’s not OK by definition or that it has not happened before or will not happen again. War is a bitch, Garry, it spoils a lot more than mixed marriages. The Arab Israeli town of Taibe is a 10 minutes drive from my home. My parents used to go shopping there once in a while. They don’t anymore, they’re afraid. It does not make them racist, you know, and it says absolutely nothing about my “new country”.
“I don’t know how you could possibly suggest they are not religionist.”
On the contrary. Most Argentinean and Russian Jews are secular, many Russians didn’t even know a thing about the Jewish rituals or festivals when they came here. Judaism, in it’s purely religious form, had practically nothing to do with it. There must be something more. Could it be a relation that transcends mere heavenly beliefs?
“Racism doesn’t apply as Judism is not a race… it may have been at one time but your talk of Russian, Argentine, European, Ethiopian etc etc means it is now just a religion”
No it just means what I said before, that it’s an abstract notion, an identity that augments, not replaces other ones.
“How many with political power (ie all departments from military to education etc etc) are not Jewish? If not is there any room in the government for non Jews?
If there is are there any restrictions to which posts they can hold?”
Israeli Arabs and other minorities are represented in all parts of Israeli government. Off the top of my head, the commander of the Givati infantry brigade is a Druze (bear in mind we only have four regular infantry brigades), and he is not even the highest ranking non-Jew in the military. One has only recently been appointed Major-General (don’t remember the post), the second highest rank in the IDF. Despite what you may believe Garry, being Jewish is not a criteria for holding a post in Israel. Israeli Arabs have held Israeli diplomatic posts, including ambassadorships.
Not that there is no room for improvement. Arab Israelis, for instance, are underrepresented in Parliament. Those are problems we all have to deal with, but they exist for a number of reasons and are certainly not ingrained in law.
“My point is that if you allow people of any religion to hold office …”
Too bad that ‘if’ does not apply …
“Any restrictions on the religion of those in office …”
restriction which don’t exist …
“one Jewish and one Palestinian then I can’t see the latter getting a fair go”
Please define “a fair go”. At least the armies of 5 neighbors won’t invade them when their state is established. This is really verging on whining.
“Looking at the land where the Palestinians are to be given for their state they will not have much chance to prosper…”
Why not? Look at Hong Kong or Singapore, or Israel for that matter. Ultimately, it is the people, not the land that would make the difference.
“The Palestinians have been told by Israel in the past that they will not be allowed their own port, or airport”
Simply not true. They could have both and they were never told they could have neither. You’re coming to wrong conclusions from events you barely understand. Israel destroyed Dahania airport because it was being used to smuggle weapons, not because of some fundamental refusal to allow a Palestinian airport. It was a punitive action, taken in the prospective of the current fighting. You’re really looking too much into it.
“I doubt that any plans for power stations involving the use of the atom would get very far either.”
No, it won’t. If only because no one is his right mind is going that way these days. Of course, imagine that Israelis should be worried about nuclear proliferation among those who still preach for their destruction!
“Even with their own state their powerful neighbour will keep them small and weak… A ready source of cheap labour nice and close to Israel that can be closed up if it starts to get too big for its boots”
OK, now you’re whining. Oh, the horror. Those Israelis, how dare they build an affluent nation, they are strong, and therefore they must be exploiters, collectively responsible for plight of their suffering “victims”. Spoken like a true liberal, Garry. I can see that even when peace does arrives, some things will never change – whatever is wrong with Palestine will always be Israel’s fault.
“like a big open concentration camp or ghetto.”
Indeed. Like the Warsaw Ghetto, you must mean. You know, the one where 20 people survived out of a population of 500,000 at the start of the war. I’m glad we can keep the discussion at a reasonable and factual level.
Palestine can be as much a Ghetto as Austria, Singapore or Switzerland are. It’s really up to them.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: He’s trolling for cash donations…
Wow, replying to two such prolific posters at the same time is quite daunting. I’ll be getting back to Mongu at a later date. This one’s for Garry.
“I compared your opinion that Jews were a seperate race … not to damage your genitalia.”
Garry, my reply about equating Israel to the Nazis was intended for Seahawk and was in relation to a recent event in Germany. If you read his response you will see he understood my intention clearly enough. It was not related to our discussion.
I would like, however, to point out that I did not say Jews were a race (I don’t even know what a ‘race’ is) but rather an ethnic group. There’s a big difference between the two, at least from my point of view. As I’ve already mentioned, I don’t think ethnicity is physical alone.
“persist in suggesting that a religion and an ethnic group are the same thing”
But I did not say that! I wasn’t talking about religion in general, but specifically about Judaism, and I have quite clearly explained why. Of course religion is not the same as ethnicity, but to label Judaism as merely a religion lacks historical perspective.
“I see Palestinian homes being demolished for another Jewish settlement”
Settlements are indeed built and Palestinians homes are indeed demolished but the two events have very little in relation to one another. That’s a common misconception, that’s simply not the way settlements are built. But that’s an entirely different subject to the one at hand …
“I wonder if the way things have been done in the last 50 years whether you deserve it.”
Excuse me; you wonder if we “deserve” it? Israel exists not by virtue but by right, we do not have to justify our existence. We “deserve” it, as much as any other state “deserves” to exist. Have you ever wondered if Germany “deserves” to exist or if Brazil “deserves” so? That’s quite an arrogant statement, Garry, wouldn’t you say? In fact, I would go as far as to say that such sentiment is exactly why we deserve it!
“If Jewish people were a seperate ethnic group then Hitler would not have needed the help of early IBM machines to create a census… they could have just walked down the street pointing out all the jews.”
IF ethnicity was physical alone, yes, but that’s not the case, it’s far more abstract than that. It was exactly the Nazis who sought to formulate ethnicity or race through physical stereotypes and such pseudo-scientific notions as racial Darwinism.
Our problem, Garry, is that you seem to think that I claim that the moment a man converts to Judaism he suddenly drops out of the local collective and into another one, as if he undergoes some deep transformation, as if his DNA is somehow changed! You misunderstand me; I don’t think so at all. What I’m saying is that the man has just gained another facet to an already multi-faceted personality (as anyone is), which is beyond his mere religious beliefs. He is now not only all he was before but also a part of the Jewish nation. This may be insignificant at many moments of his life, and will certainly be so in current Western society, but there may come a time when it will be more than that, and not necessarily by the man’s choice. As I said, this is an abstract notion, not one for which a formula exists.
“I certainly wouldn’t run away from the problem.”
That’s a simplistic, if not chauvinistic, sentiment, not one by which millions of people can lead their lives. Do you think that all Jews should have opted to stay put in Europe just to avoid losing face? You do what you have to do, and if that calls for independence, then so be it.
“this stupidity can be based on ethnic hatred or religious hatred and therefore is not evidence that the Jewish people are an ethnic group.”
I disagree. Anti-Semitism is a hatred the world is simply unable to shake, just look at the length of time it has persisted (The story of Jews using young boys’ blood for Passover rituals was born in Britain sometime around the 12th century. You can still find it repeated to this day, the latest was in a Saudi newspaper only a few weeks ago). It may be small scale in certain parts of the world, but in others it is not. Unlike you, I can’t dismiss it as mere stupidity, but rather as such an ancient, lasting and sometimes lethal phenomenon as to bring about the definition of Judaism as more than a religion.
“The Gypsies have a similar history and some could say that the American Indians have had and continue to have a raw deal, yet they do not try to separate themselves from the rest of the world “
Because they’ve either not wished it so or because they were never given the choice or chance to do so. Besides, the point is irrelevant. Just because Native Americans don’t have a state of their own do not deny any other group this right.
“You have refused the PA the same so far.”
Oh please, as if that is what the whole Mid-East conflict is about, Israelis denying Palestinians their self-determination. Yes, let us all forget about the 1947 Palestine Partition Plan that the Palestinians rejected, or consecutive attempts to destroy Israel, or the still persistent incitement against the very existence of Israel, or 50 years of terrorism and de-legitimization. There are grievances on both sides of the conflict, you know, and oversimplifying it will hardly move us towards resolution.
“Did the world not take in Jewish orphans after WWII?”
Yes it did, but that a small detail in a much bigger picture. Israel, who was 600,000 strong upon its formation, took in over one million people in the years following its creation. Not really on the same scale, I think.
“(Growl… we are an evil anti semetic world…)”
I don’t really think so, but at least I know there’s one place in the world which I am sure is free of that sickness …
“That must be the US… or has their support been of no help at all?”
Actually, it has been of immense use, and that’s only one reason why we appreciate it so much. A country that actually translates values into deeds, unlike other who dispense unhelpful quasi-moral diatribe from behind their fortress walls, n’est pas? }>
“It is a shame you choose to make a joke of what happened in South Africa.”
No I didn’t, lighten up.
“Sorry for my ignorance but can some English posters on this forum please post some pictures from Heathrow airport where any Jews who try to sneak into Britain are taken aside and shot. Perhaps a few Belgian posters can show pictures of the pits where they put all of the Jews who try to enter Europe by sea are burned?”
Yes, let’s be extreme instead of actually dealing with facts. White settlers in Zimbabwe are descended from Europeans and are culturally almost the same. European nations would take them in without a second thought. What country in Europe would accept entire Jewish populations now wishing to leave. let’s say, Tunisia? They’d hardly even take individuals without the hassles of current immigration, but thousands of people? Only one nation would …
“What I am trying to point out is that in trying to create your own state to avoid oppression of jews you are creating another state that oppresses minorities”
One has nothing to do with the other. Almost all countries of the world are nation states to one degree or another. Does the existance of a Japanese state automatically suggest any other minorities are oppressed? The fact that discrimination exists in Israel today does not necessarily mean it should be dealt with outside the framework of an Israeli state, does it?
“I mean it is not even OK to marry palestinians!!! What does this say about your new country.”
The fact that such events don’t often take place is because of the tragic events underway around us. It does not mean it’s not OK by definition or that it has not happened before or will not happen again. War is a bitch, Garry, it spoils a lot more than mixed marriages. The Arab Israeli town of Taibe is a 10 minutes drive from my home. My parents used to go shopping there once in a while. They don’t anymore, they’re afraid. It does not make them racist, you know, and it says absolutely nothing about my “new country”.
“I don’t know how you could possibly suggest they are not religionist.”
On the contrary. Most Argentinean and Russian Jews are secular, many Russians didn’t even know a thing about the Jewish rituals or festivals when they came here. Judaism, in it’s purely religious form, had practically nothing to do with it. There must be something more. Could it be a relation that transcends mere heavenly beliefs?
“Racism doesn’t apply as Judism is not a race… it may have been at one time but your talk of Russian, Argentine, European, Ethiopian etc etc means it is now just a religion”
No it just means what I said before, that it’s an abstract notion, an identity that augments, not replaces other ones.
“How many with political power (ie all departments from military to education etc etc) are not Jewish? If not is there any room in the government for non Jews?
If there is are there any restrictions to which posts they can hold?”
Israeli Arabs and other minorities are represented in all parts of Israeli government. Off the top of my head, the commander of the Givati infantry brigade is a Druze (bear in mind we only have four regular infantry brigades), and he is not even the highest ranking non-Jew in the military. One has only recently been appointed Major-General (don’t remember the post), the second highest rank in the IDF. Despite what you may believe Garry, being Jewish is not a criteria for holding a post in Israel. Israeli Arabs have held Israeli diplomatic posts, including ambassadorships.
Not that there is no room for improvement. Arab Israelis, for instance, are underrepresented in Parliament. Those are problems we all have to deal with, but they exist for a number of reasons and are certainly not ingrained in law.
“My point is that if you allow people of any religion to hold office …”
Too bad that ‘if’ does not apply …
“Any restrictions on the religion of those in office …”
restriction which don’t exist …
“one Jewish and one Palestinian then I can’t see the latter getting a fair go”
Please define “a fair go”. At least the armies of 5 neighbors won’t invade them when their state is established. This is really verging on whining.
“Looking at the land where the Palestinians are to be given for their state they will not have much chance to prosper…”
Why not? Look at Hong Kong or Singapore, or Israel for that matter. Ultimately, it is the people, not the land that would make the difference.
“The Palestinians have been told by Israel in the past that they will not be allowed their own port, or airport”
Simply not true. They could have both and they were never told they could have neither. You’re coming to wrong conclusions from events you barely understand. Israel destroyed Dahania airport because it was being used to smuggle weapons, not because of some fundamental refusal to allow a Palestinian airport. It was a punitive action, taken in the prospective of the current fighting. You’re really looking too much into it.
“I doubt that any plans for power stations involving the use of the atom would get very far either.”
No, it won’t. If only because no one is his right mind is going that way these days. Of course, imagine that Israelis should be worried about nuclear proliferation among those who still preach for their destruction!
“Even with their own state their powerful neighbour will keep them small and weak… A ready source of cheap labour nice and close to Israel that can be closed up if it starts to get too big for its boots”
OK, now you’re whining. Oh, the horror. Those Israelis, how dare they build an affluent nation, they are strong, and therefore they must be exploiters, collectively responsible for plight of their suffering “victims”. Spoken like a true liberal, Garry. I can see that even when peace does arrives, some things will never change – whatever is wrong with Palestine will always be Israel’s fault.
“like a big open concentration camp or ghetto.”
Indeed. Like the Warsaw Ghetto, you must mean. You know, the one where 20 people survived out of a population of 500,000 at the start of the war. I’m glad we can keep the discussion at a reasonable and factual level.
Palestine can be as much a Ghetto as Austria, Singapore or Switzerland are. It’s really up to them.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: Merkava IV unveiled today
Two more photos, from the IDF’s official website.
both captions read : ” The Merkava Mk.4 tank was today presented to the public at a ceremony attended by Defence Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, IDF Chief-of-Staff Lieutenant General Shaul Mofaz, Commander of IDF Logistics, General Udi Adam, Commander of IDF Ground Forces, General Iftah Ron-Tal, and the mastermind behind the Merkava, Reserve General Israel Tal. The tank is among the most advanced in the world and was developed in Israel.”
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
Attachments:
skytheRE: Merkava IV unveiled today
Two more photos, from the IDF’s official website.
both captions read : ” The Merkava Mk.4 tank was today presented to the public at a ceremony attended by Defence Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, IDF Chief-of-Staff Lieutenant General Shaul Mofaz, Commander of IDF Logistics, General Udi Adam, Commander of IDF Ground Forces, General Iftah Ron-Tal, and the mastermind behind the Merkava, Reserve General Israel Tal. The tank is among the most advanced in the world and was developed in Israel.”
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
Attachments:
skytheRE: Merkava IV unveiled today
Another photo.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
Attachments:
skytheRE: Merkava IV unveiled today
Another photo.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
Attachments:
skytheRE: examples?
2. You can critisize Israel, the question is how. Someone who compares Israel to the Nazis is simply taking a shot below the belt, rather than tackling the facts head on. It shows a dire need for perspective and a little more knowldege of history.
3. I’ve got one word for you, Seahawk : Tibet.
4. You understand wrong, I never said that. Israel does reserve the right to look out for Jews wherever they are, but translating it into launching wars is really too far fetched. Israel evacuated Ethiopian Jews, it did not invade the country! You did not see Markavas roling off ships on the beaches of Eritrea!
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: examples?
2. You can critisize Israel, the question is how. Someone who compares Israel to the Nazis is simply taking a shot below the belt, rather than tackling the facts head on. It shows a dire need for perspective and a little more knowldege of history.
3. I’ve got one word for you, Seahawk : Tibet.
4. You understand wrong, I never said that. Israel does reserve the right to look out for Jews wherever they are, but translating it into launching wars is really too far fetched. Israel evacuated Ethiopian Jews, it did not invade the country! You did not see Markavas roling off ships on the beaches of Eritrea!
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: This is really disgusting …
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-06-02 AT 09:46 AM (GMT)]> They shouldn’t forget the past but I think they could try to forgive it. A group of
> nutters called Nazis wanted to get rid of your religion.
> Get over it.
> Jewish people don’t have a monopoly on hardship you know.
I never claimed that Jews alone have suffered. You’re once again missing the point. I brought up the Holocaust because it is the best example of why Jews can’t simply accept a situation where they are stateless, subject to the whim and fancy of this or that administration. Jews have repeatedly suffered at the hands of one master or another and as such need an independent state of their own. After all Garry, you would not deny the Jews the same thing you support for the Palestinians, would you?
> Ethnicity is a physical thing… what you are referring to is cultural… or do you
>agree with the Nazi party that strenuously tried to seperate jews from the arian
>race by charactarising them as a seperate ethnic group with big ears and big
>noses?
Certainly not. But we have a fundamental difference of opinion. You see, I don’t think ethnicity is merely physical. If you’re singled out, if you are repeatedly considered different simply because you belong to a certain group of people, then you got something to think about. To that we add centuries of European hostility towards Jews, in all shapes and forms, no matter the time or geography, and behold, a new nation is born. Reality at work.
> I would still be a european NZer who just happened to be Jewish.
Yes you would. Right now. But should things be different one day, you’ll now also have a place that will take you in. But the above comment is beautiful is a sense. If you wish, I could provide you with a similar comment made by a German Jew a century ago. History proved otherwise.
>”How many Christian school buses or churches have been firebombed in France
>lately?”
> First of all what has this to do with anything?
It has to do with everything. As I said, when you’re singled out, when you are made different, then you’ve got a thing to think about. You wouldn’t dismiss such things so easily if it were your child’s school bus that was firebombed.
> Religious hatred only relates to ethnic hatred in the sence that is is stupid and > relies on the stupidity of those involved.
I agree, but when that stupidity has lasted as long as it has, you can’t really ignore it, can you? You’d draw the obvious conclusion that you would do best on your own.
> Second if you change location to India or many other countries where Christians
> are a minority and I’d say quite a few.
Exactly. But there are more than enough places that would take in fleeing Christians, more than enough people and nations to look out for them. There is only one state that looks out for world Jewry.
> Not forgotten… just forgiven… South African can do it and they are stuck in
> this world too. They have greatly benefitted from making this choice. Sure
> crime is high as is unemployment but these were existing problems there
> anyway.
Three cheers for South Africa. But what if it had been different, like in Zimbabwe? White South Africans will always be accepted in Europe. Wish I could say the same about Jews.
> So what you are saying is there is no room in the jewish religion for
> Palestinains?
No, you’re saying that. But that, in fact, is probably the best example of why Jews are an ethnic group. Today, as things are (again, that annoying thing, Reality), no you cannot be both Jewish and Palestinian. If Judaism were merely a religion then you could, but a Jewish-Palestinian is something that simply does not exist!
> The only thing they shared with the locals was religion. Different ethnically is
>OK for your new state but must be the same religion… is that the criteria?
No, out of a population of 6 million there are more than 1 million Christians and Muslims in Israel. But I can see what you’re striving at Garry. Yes, Israel is a terrible country because it has the audacity to take in people based on their religious beliefs alone. Yes, it’s a horrible place that took in the survivors of the holocaust and built new lives for them, it took in Arab Jews expelled from the Arab world, It took in Argentinean Jews persecuted by the Peron regime, it took in Soviet Jews fleeing communism, it saved Ethiopian Jews from an unknown fate. What a terrible racist country! Israel will always be a refuge for Jews, for whatever reason they feel the need to leave their home countries. If only because no one else will.
> Demands for your own state with self rule and nobody else telling you what to
> do suggests that it is jews who refuse to be part of the collective
Cause and effect, Garry, Jewish demands for self-determination are a direct result of European anti-Semitism. What self-determination did Jews demand of Spain when in expelled them in 1492? Alfred Dreyfus, didn’t even know what Zionism is. It berely even existed in his days!
> Hahahaha… sorry but it sounds like your safe place isn’t very safe…
Right now, no, it’s not the safest place in the world. But it could be.
>perhaps partly to do with the way it was built…
Well, the implementation was not as perfect a it was hoped, but that’s an entire subject altogether.
> What do you mean… are you saying that Israel wasn’t jewish land 1,000 years
> ago and you have just pinched it from the arabs?
My mistake. That should read : “But I do also want Israel that can be the homeland Jews didn’t have when they needed it most.” Besides, I was talking about Israel in the political sense, nothing to do with the Arab Israeli conflict.
> Could a jewish/palestinian state not be democratic. Any democracy that doesn’t > use religion as a basis should in theory be a safe secure place for all religions to > coexist
You’re absolutely right, Garry, but you’re talking about ideal places. A Jewish/Palestinian could in theory be democratic. In practice? Not in the foreseeable future. The question is: do you want the conflict resolved? If the answer is ‘yes’ then the two states solution is the most practicable one.
> It is when religion is written into law forcing all other religions to conform that
> problems occur
True, but Israel is not ruled by Jewish law. Israel does actually uphold freedom of worship. Israel’s definition as the “Jewish state” is misleading, because it implies the very state is Jewish. The very term “Jewish State” is not even used in local discourse, but rather the “Jews’ State”. Same words, a world of difference apart. Yes, Israel is a country for the Jews, but not theirs alone.
> I can of course understand that but if it takes Israel in a direction away from
> where non Jewish inhabitants want to go then don’t you see that your eutopia
> is making the arabs the “victim” jews in their own country that you fear for
> your own people.
Israel is far from perfect. I am fully aware that discrimination exists, and that there are many wrongs to be made right. The establishment of a Palestinian state will be the first step in the right direction, following which other positive changes will also take place. The prospect of a bi-national democracy instead of Israel is an empty promise (which great Arab democracy will it look like?) that will solve nothing.
> I am naive and acadmicaly minded but I’m not stupid.
Never said you were, and I apologize if I implied it (did I? Where?). I would have never spent the time discussing the matter with you had I thought as much.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: This is really disgusting …
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-06-02 AT 09:46 AM (GMT)]> They shouldn’t forget the past but I think they could try to forgive it. A group of
> nutters called Nazis wanted to get rid of your religion.
> Get over it.
> Jewish people don’t have a monopoly on hardship you know.
I never claimed that Jews alone have suffered. You’re once again missing the point. I brought up the Holocaust because it is the best example of why Jews can’t simply accept a situation where they are stateless, subject to the whim and fancy of this or that administration. Jews have repeatedly suffered at the hands of one master or another and as such need an independent state of their own. After all Garry, you would not deny the Jews the same thing you support for the Palestinians, would you?
> Ethnicity is a physical thing… what you are referring to is cultural… or do you
>agree with the Nazi party that strenuously tried to seperate jews from the arian
>race by charactarising them as a seperate ethnic group with big ears and big
>noses?
Certainly not. But we have a fundamental difference of opinion. You see, I don’t think ethnicity is merely physical. If you’re singled out, if you are repeatedly considered different simply because you belong to a certain group of people, then you got something to think about. To that we add centuries of European hostility towards Jews, in all shapes and forms, no matter the time or geography, and behold, a new nation is born. Reality at work.
> I would still be a european NZer who just happened to be Jewish.
Yes you would. Right now. But should things be different one day, you’ll now also have a place that will take you in. But the above comment is beautiful is a sense. If you wish, I could provide you with a similar comment made by a German Jew a century ago. History proved otherwise.
>”How many Christian school buses or churches have been firebombed in France
>lately?”
> First of all what has this to do with anything?
It has to do with everything. As I said, when you’re singled out, when you are made different, then you’ve got a thing to think about. You wouldn’t dismiss such things so easily if it were your child’s school bus that was firebombed.
> Religious hatred only relates to ethnic hatred in the sence that is is stupid and > relies on the stupidity of those involved.
I agree, but when that stupidity has lasted as long as it has, you can’t really ignore it, can you? You’d draw the obvious conclusion that you would do best on your own.
> Second if you change location to India or many other countries where Christians
> are a minority and I’d say quite a few.
Exactly. But there are more than enough places that would take in fleeing Christians, more than enough people and nations to look out for them. There is only one state that looks out for world Jewry.
> Not forgotten… just forgiven… South African can do it and they are stuck in
> this world too. They have greatly benefitted from making this choice. Sure
> crime is high as is unemployment but these were existing problems there
> anyway.
Three cheers for South Africa. But what if it had been different, like in Zimbabwe? White South Africans will always be accepted in Europe. Wish I could say the same about Jews.
> So what you are saying is there is no room in the jewish religion for
> Palestinains?
No, you’re saying that. But that, in fact, is probably the best example of why Jews are an ethnic group. Today, as things are (again, that annoying thing, Reality), no you cannot be both Jewish and Palestinian. If Judaism were merely a religion then you could, but a Jewish-Palestinian is something that simply does not exist!
> The only thing they shared with the locals was religion. Different ethnically is
>OK for your new state but must be the same religion… is that the criteria?
No, out of a population of 6 million there are more than 1 million Christians and Muslims in Israel. But I can see what you’re striving at Garry. Yes, Israel is a terrible country because it has the audacity to take in people based on their religious beliefs alone. Yes, it’s a horrible place that took in the survivors of the holocaust and built new lives for them, it took in Arab Jews expelled from the Arab world, It took in Argentinean Jews persecuted by the Peron regime, it took in Soviet Jews fleeing communism, it saved Ethiopian Jews from an unknown fate. What a terrible racist country! Israel will always be a refuge for Jews, for whatever reason they feel the need to leave their home countries. If only because no one else will.
> Demands for your own state with self rule and nobody else telling you what to
> do suggests that it is jews who refuse to be part of the collective
Cause and effect, Garry, Jewish demands for self-determination are a direct result of European anti-Semitism. What self-determination did Jews demand of Spain when in expelled them in 1492? Alfred Dreyfus, didn’t even know what Zionism is. It berely even existed in his days!
> Hahahaha… sorry but it sounds like your safe place isn’t very safe…
Right now, no, it’s not the safest place in the world. But it could be.
>perhaps partly to do with the way it was built…
Well, the implementation was not as perfect a it was hoped, but that’s an entire subject altogether.
> What do you mean… are you saying that Israel wasn’t jewish land 1,000 years
> ago and you have just pinched it from the arabs?
My mistake. That should read : “But I do also want Israel that can be the homeland Jews didn’t have when they needed it most.” Besides, I was talking about Israel in the political sense, nothing to do with the Arab Israeli conflict.
> Could a jewish/palestinian state not be democratic. Any democracy that doesn’t > use religion as a basis should in theory be a safe secure place for all religions to > coexist
You’re absolutely right, Garry, but you’re talking about ideal places. A Jewish/Palestinian could in theory be democratic. In practice? Not in the foreseeable future. The question is: do you want the conflict resolved? If the answer is ‘yes’ then the two states solution is the most practicable one.
> It is when religion is written into law forcing all other religions to conform that
> problems occur
True, but Israel is not ruled by Jewish law. Israel does actually uphold freedom of worship. Israel’s definition as the “Jewish state” is misleading, because it implies the very state is Jewish. The very term “Jewish State” is not even used in local discourse, but rather the “Jews’ State”. Same words, a world of difference apart. Yes, Israel is a country for the Jews, but not theirs alone.
> I can of course understand that but if it takes Israel in a direction away from
> where non Jewish inhabitants want to go then don’t you see that your eutopia
> is making the arabs the “victim” jews in their own country that you fear for
> your own people.
Israel is far from perfect. I am fully aware that discrimination exists, and that there are many wrongs to be made right. The establishment of a Palestinian state will be the first step in the right direction, following which other positive changes will also take place. The prospect of a bi-national democracy instead of Israel is an empty promise (which great Arab democracy will it look like?) that will solve nothing.
> I am naive and acadmicaly minded but I’m not stupid.
Never said you were, and I apologize if I implied it (did I? Where?). I would have never spent the time discussing the matter with you had I thought as much.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: This is really disgusting …
> Why can’t you forget the past?
Really Mongu, you cannot be serious. The entire notion is ridiculous. If you don’t learn from your past how are you ever going to learn anything? Besides, do you really expect Jews to say, “that’s all in the past, it will never happen again”? Do you have fortune-telling abilities?
Anyway, I don’t even know how you can talk about the past :
Russian woman hurt in blast while removing anti-Semitic sign (27/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=169128&contr…
Explosion damages Canadian synagogue in Quebec (19/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=165640&contr…
London synagogue attacked for a second time (01/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157949&contr…
Arson attack on Berlin synagogue, but no damage (29/04/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157355&contr…
Security increased around Belgian synagogue after shooting (22/04/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154689&contr…
There’s plenty more where that came from.
> In pre-WW2 Europe, Jews were no more “gotten at” than lots of other
> peoples – it’s just unusual that a religion was targeted rather
> than an ethnic group (like slavs or gipsies). That, as of itself,
> is no justification to class Jews together ethnically
I beg to differ. 2,000 years of persecution are more than enough, and are quite unparalleled, even in European history. Do you know of any other group which was expelled at one time or another from every European country?
You see Mongu, it’s not that Jews chose to be a separate nation – Europe made it so. Emanicapation was supposed to solve that question by making Jews equal citizens of their host nations. But that reality was never realised. It may be mostly true today, but it was very different until not so long ago, and who knows what tidings the future brings. Point is, Israel exists today so that Jews don’t have to take that chance.
> If I’m thinking correcrtly, Jews would be of mixed ethnicity,
> mainly because of the historical expulsion from Israel and
> subsequent scattering.
You’re taking a very literal interpretation of enthnicity, as if ethnicity is dependant on genetics. You become a part of the nation whether you’re born into it or you’re converted, you don’t have to take a blood test. It a matter of choice, not something eched in stone.
>The alternative is that Judaism is, as you say, more ethnic than
>religious. Would this make the “religon” part of Judaism
>discriminatory – Blacks, Arabs (!) or Asians couldn’t convert?
Hardly, as I said, it’s not about genetics. There are in fact, thousands of black Jews. Also, I never said it was more ethnic than religious. It is rather both, and anyone can put the emphasis where he chooses. If one so wishes, he can claim to be nothing more than a man of Jewish persuation. It does not mean he’s any worse that any other Jew in the world. I am an Israeli, but that does not make me any more Jewish than Jews living in Europe, American or Australia, even if I do live in the “Jewish State”.
Bottom line – it’s a very abstract notion, there is no single formula to define Judaism, only it is simply not merely a religion.
>How about if Israel (and Palestine) were stripped of their
>sovereignty and administered under an international mandate? Then
>both sides would have a common enemy and would miracuously get on…
No problem, right after the keys to 10 Downing St. are handed over to the UN, you can expect the Israeli delegation to be next in line…
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: This is really disgusting …
> Why can’t you forget the past?
Really Mongu, you cannot be serious. The entire notion is ridiculous. If you don’t learn from your past how are you ever going to learn anything? Besides, do you really expect Jews to say, “that’s all in the past, it will never happen again”? Do you have fortune-telling abilities?
Anyway, I don’t even know how you can talk about the past :
Russian woman hurt in blast while removing anti-Semitic sign (27/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=169128&contr…
Explosion damages Canadian synagogue in Quebec (19/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=165640&contr…
London synagogue attacked for a second time (01/05/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157949&contr…
Arson attack on Berlin synagogue, but no damage (29/04/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157355&contr…
Security increased around Belgian synagogue after shooting (22/04/2002)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154689&contr…
There’s plenty more where that came from.
> In pre-WW2 Europe, Jews were no more “gotten at” than lots of other
> peoples – it’s just unusual that a religion was targeted rather
> than an ethnic group (like slavs or gipsies). That, as of itself,
> is no justification to class Jews together ethnically
I beg to differ. 2,000 years of persecution are more than enough, and are quite unparalleled, even in European history. Do you know of any other group which was expelled at one time or another from every European country?
You see Mongu, it’s not that Jews chose to be a separate nation – Europe made it so. Emanicapation was supposed to solve that question by making Jews equal citizens of their host nations. But that reality was never realised. It may be mostly true today, but it was very different until not so long ago, and who knows what tidings the future brings. Point is, Israel exists today so that Jews don’t have to take that chance.
> If I’m thinking correcrtly, Jews would be of mixed ethnicity,
> mainly because of the historical expulsion from Israel and
> subsequent scattering.
You’re taking a very literal interpretation of enthnicity, as if ethnicity is dependant on genetics. You become a part of the nation whether you’re born into it or you’re converted, you don’t have to take a blood test. It a matter of choice, not something eched in stone.
>The alternative is that Judaism is, as you say, more ethnic than
>religious. Would this make the “religon” part of Judaism
>discriminatory – Blacks, Arabs (!) or Asians couldn’t convert?
Hardly, as I said, it’s not about genetics. There are in fact, thousands of black Jews. Also, I never said it was more ethnic than religious. It is rather both, and anyone can put the emphasis where he chooses. If one so wishes, he can claim to be nothing more than a man of Jewish persuation. It does not mean he’s any worse that any other Jew in the world. I am an Israeli, but that does not make me any more Jewish than Jews living in Europe, American or Australia, even if I do live in the “Jewish State”.
Bottom line – it’s a very abstract notion, there is no single formula to define Judaism, only it is simply not merely a religion.
>How about if Israel (and Palestine) were stripped of their
>sovereignty and administered under an international mandate? Then
>both sides would have a common enemy and would miracuously get on…
No problem, right after the keys to 10 Downing St. are handed over to the UN, you can expect the Israeli delegation to be next in line…
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
skytheRE: Anybody served in the military before ???????
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-06-02 AT 05:54 PM (GMT)]Family history, ehh? Well, my late grandfather on my mother’s side fought with the Red Army against the Nazis. My late grandfather on my mother’s side faught with the Haganah for the liberation of Tiberias, the first city in not-yet-born Israel to fall to Jewish hands in 1948. My dad was in the Golani infantry and as such participated in the famous raid on Nukeib in 1962. In 1967 he was with the first brigade to enter the Golan Heights, the same one which took over Tel-Faher and Tel-Azizat, although he did not participate in these two infamous battles. In 1973 he was with the forces containing Egypt’s 3rd Army, and later spent some time on the western bank of the canal as well. I don’t remember what my uncle did, but at one time or another he had the gruesome job of visiting the families of fallen soldiers to inform them of their loss.
—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.
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