RE: Israel vs Palestine

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 13-04-02 AT 05:17 PM (GMT)]> I don’t know about the latest events anymore

Well, this is the crux of the matter, isn’t it Geforce? you don’t actually know ##### of what’s going on around here, all you know are big words like Holocaust and Apartheid, neither of which is even applicable in the current situation. And now you are justifying terrorism. Why am I not surprised? You know Arafat has been sponsoring, harboring and commiting terrorism from the moment Israel let him return here, you know he has done his best to educate his people to hate (with generous support from the EU) and you know he rejected generous offers of Palestinians independence and opted for war instead. Your country is supporting massive military action in Afghanistan for such things, but I guess allowing Israel that much self defence is really too much.
Well Geforce, here are more facts for you to ignore:

Arafat’s Harvest of Hate
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By Charles Krauthammer
Tuesday, March 26, 2002; Page A19, Washington Post

Sept. 11 awakened Americans to the anti-American vitriol in the state-controlled media of such apparently friendly states as Egypt and Saudi Arabia. We are just beginning to understand how a daily diet of hatred fed through schools and the media — a hatred quietly incubating for years — found its most perfect expression in the slaughter of Sept. 11.

We have failed, however, to see how a similar campaign of hate has laid the groundwork for the orgy of murder-suicide the Palestinians are now engaged in. A mother appears on videotape proudly sending her 18-year-old to his death just so he can kill as many Jews as possible. This is unprecedented. Before the Oslo peace accords of 1993, suicide bombing was a practice almost unheard of among Palestinians.

And it is not as if they had no grievances before 1993. On the contrary. The advent of suicide bombing coincides precisely with the era of Israeli conciliation and peacemaking: recognition of the PLO, repeated concessions of territory, establishment of the Palestinian Authority, acceptance of an armed Palestinian police — all culminating in the unprecedented offer of an independent Palestinian state with its capital in a shared Jerusalem. It is precisely in the context of the most accommodating, most conciliatory, most dovish Israeli policy in history that the suicide bombings took hold.

Where, then, did they come from? During the past eight years — the years of the Oslo “peace process” — Yasser Arafat had complete control of all the organs of Palestinian education and propaganda. It takes an unspeakable hatred for people to send their children to commit Columbine-like murder-suicide. Arafat taught it. His television, his newspapers, his clerics have inculcated an anti-Semitism unmatched in virulence since Nazi Germany.

When U.S. peace negotiator Dennis Ross stepped down last year, he acknowledged, to his credit, that a major error of diplomacy in the Clinton years was turning a diplomatic blind eye to the poisonous incitement in Palestinian media. Just as Osama bin Laden spent the ’90s indoctrinating and infiltrating in preparation for murder, Arafat raised an entire generation schooled in hatred of the “Judeo-Nazis.”

This indoctrination goes far beyond expunging Israel, literally, from Palestinian maps. It goes far beyond denying, indeed ridiculing, the Holocaust as a Jewish fantasy. It consists of the rawest incitement to murder, as in this sermon by Arafat-appointed and Arafat-funded Ahmad Abu Halabiya broadcast live on official Palestinian Authority television early in the Intifada. The subject is “the Jews.” (Note: not the Israelis, but the Jews.) “They must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: ‘Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands.’ . . . Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them.”

The rationale offered for such murderousness is Jewish villainy as taught not just in Palestine but throughout the Arab world. On March 10, for example, an article in the official Saudi newspaper al-Riyadh described in rich detail how the Jews ritually slaughter Christian and Muslim children to use their blood in their holiday foods. With almost comic pseudo-scholarship, it explained that for one holiday (Purim) the Jew must kill an adolescent, but for Passover the victim must be 10 years or younger.

When the article achieved wide notoriety in translation, the editor apologized under pressure. He said he had been out of town when the article appeared. An odd excuse, given the fact that this elaborate blood libel ran as a two-part series.

A precondition for peace is to prepare your people for peace. Egypt’s Anwar Sadat did that after signing his peace treaty with Israel. The Israelis did that after signing Oslo. They changed their textbooks and altered their civic culture to recognize and accept the Palestinians. On the 50th anniversary of Israel’s independence, for example, Israel Television aired an epic multipart historical documentary that offered a view of the Palestinians that was deeply sympathetic and understanding.

While Israeli leaders, both political and intellectual, were preparing their people for peace, Arafat was preparing his people for war — the war he unleashed two months after rejecting Israel’s Camp David peace offer of July 2000 — with an unrelenting campaign of anti-Semitic vilification carried out by every organ of his media. And how he has succeeded. When Arafat’s state-controlled media glorify a “martyrdom operation,” it is not just a commendation of the murderer, it is a vindication of their own pedagogy. We now see its fruits in the streets of Jerusalem, where the blood from the latest suicide bombing graces the third floor of surrounding buildings.

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: DC-3/C-47

A wonderfull aircraft, with an amazing history, especially in IDF/AF service. The first IDF/AF Dakota was actually an Air France aircraft that was damaged in an attack by Egyptian fighters on Sde Dov in mid May 1948. It was only slightly damaged and subsequently commandeered into the IDF/AF. During the 1948 War of Indepedence both Israel and Egypt used the type as a bomber. As a matter of fact, the IDF/AF’s first aerial kills were two Egyptian Dakotas that bombed Tel-Aviv on June 3rd 1948. They were intercepted and shot down by Modi Alon in an Avia S.199. (attached photo)
The type also played an important part in the 1956 Suez campaign, when they dropped Israeli paratroops onto the Mitla Pass in the Sinai, and also in the 1967 war, with support for Israeli forces on the Egyptian front.
The type was only recently retired from IDF/AF service, after more than 50 years in service. My dad, who did some paradrops, jumped off the plane a number of times. He actually dislikes the plane, saying he never had any problem jumping, it alway seemed safer than staying inside. 🙂

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

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RE: Israel vs Palestine

“JEWISH hate posting”, Merlin? Pray tell what section of my messages constitutes “Jewish hate posting”? If you have a problem with Skythe, one of many individuals on this forum, then go ahead and say so. But what does my religion have to do with it?

As for the matter at hand : I never claimed to be anything but biased, read the first sentence of my first post. It clearly says “an Israeli perspective”. But even in presenting my “bias answer” I have done nothing but presenting the facts as I know, understand, and even lived through them. If you disagree, feel free to point out any mistakes or lies that have crept into my texts. Not once in my previous posts have I denied you your freedom of speech, Merlin. But freedom of speech (Yes, we non-westerners know about that too) also gives me the right to point out mistakes I believe you have made. If you don’t like my posts, counter them with something more substantial than “JEWISH hate posting”.

You don’t want me to call you ignorant? Never mind that I said “ignorant manner” and have certainly not made any derogative remarks at you directly, but someone who wants such a label removed should indeed portray some more knowledge. Suicide bombers get 2-3 people at the time? The Passover bombing of last Wednesday killed 26 people. You don’t need to be Israeli to know that. Sky News and the BBC are more than enough. Do you know why the IDF uses helicopter gunships? Because anti-tank helicopter missiles are precise, causing less collateral damage than almost any other weapon, usually a lot less damage than a successful suicide bomber. If I’m not mistaken, the largest number of people killed by a helicopter at any one incident is 5. This does not justify the killing of course, any innocent death is regretable, but IDF/AF helicopters have not once intentionally targetted innocent civilians, and IAF jets have not once struck any target other than one belonging to the Palestinian Authority or Palestinian security organizations (which also makes their record far better than that of US and NATO jets in the Balkans, Afghanistan or Iraq). I wish I could say the same for the suicide bombers.

Yes, we Israelis have a mighty arsenal. But being strong does not make us wrong and does not make us aggressors. As both Colin Powell and George Bush said on two separate occasions : A ceasefire was in the works, Israel had shown restraint in the face of ongoing Palestinians attacks (it had in fact not retaliated for a suicide bombing that killed 9 on board a bus and another in a Jerusalem street which killed 2), and all the Palestinians had to do was live up to their part of the bargain. Their answer came clear enough last wednesday.

> I am sorry your mother was thrown out of Poland
> but that is neither my fault or my interest here in this forum
> I do not want to know about your Family

>You say that the Jews were offered their own country
>or indeed your words imply it. Well the Palistinians didn’t
>have a choice when the Israelis moved in. This is how I see it.

Do you actually READ the things I write?
In the first case, what I said is in direct relevance to your comments about the motivation of suicide bombers. “My mothers’ family was thrown out of Poland by the communist government, YET I’M NOT ABOUT TO BLOW MYSELF UP IN DOWNTOWN WARSAW”. Besides Merlin, the past exploits of your neighbours are of little interest to me either, so who’s the pot, and who’s calling the kettle black?
In the second, I never said Jews were offered their own country. On the contrary. While the Nazis were only out to exterminate the Jews, the Palestinians could have had an independent state on several occasions : they could have had one in 1948 had they not rejected the UN partion of Palestine, they could have had one when the West Bank and Gaza Strip were under Jordanian and Egyptian control, and they could have had one two years ago had they not rejected any form of compromise at the second Camp David summit. Besides, if you feel that you can summerize the entire Middle Eat conflict, 100 years long, with one sentence – “Well the Palistinians didn’t have a choice when the Israelis moved in. This is how I see it.” – then don’t be surprised when people use the I word.

As for Northern Ireland, the situations are hardly comparable, for so many reasons. Also, let us not forget that the history of the 800 year long conquest of Ireland is full of enough butchery to make the entire Arab-Israeli conflict look like a school-yard fight. You are however right Merlin, in this regard : Israelis and Palestinians do have a lot to learn from that current events in your region of the world. One of the most important ones is from the Republic of Ireland : No matter how sympathetic the Irish people and their government are to the Catholic cause, they would NEVER harbour Republican terrorists, they would never arm them and they would never incite their people to hate the British or Anglicans. That is commendable and that is how the Palestinian Authority should have been behaving, instead of becoming the terrorist safeheaven it is today.

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: Israel vs Palestine

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 02-04-02 AT 04:25 PM (GMT)]I’m sorry to take up your time, but an Israeli perspective on these matters is quite relevant.

This ongoing conflict is often portrayed some campaign of Palestinian liberation against an intransigent Israeli occupation. This is simplistic and in complete ignorance of events over the past decade. The most important point one has to remember is that is was ISRAEL who in the first place withdrew from Palestinian territories and allowed the formation of the Palestinian Authority in a process that would have ultimately brought about an independent Palestinian state. Believe or not, but most of us Israelis want to see a viable Palestinian state living peacefully side by side with us. ALL the Palestinians, headed by Yasser Arafat, had to do was to curtail terrorist activities from their territories against Israeli targets. Not only did they fail completely, they actually encouraged them, harbored these terrorists who send suicide bombers into our buses and restaurants. The Palestinian authority, a regime which Newsweek dubbed a ‘Cleptocracy’, TAUGHT its pupils to hate Israel in particular and Jews in general, GLORIFIED suicide bombings, smuggled illegal arms and wanted men into the territories, all the while whining about Israeli closures which would have never taken place had their cities not turned into terrorist safeheavens. They took the weapons WE provided them to combat terrorism and turned them against us!

It’s so easy to imagine terrorism as some desperate man’s weapon, the last resort for someone who doesn’t have anything to lose. It’s so romantic – and so wrong. Terrorism exist because there are those who WILL it to be. Terrorism takes place because there are those who INDOCTORINATE young men and women to kill themselves among the enemy, those who SUPPLY the weapons, ammuniton and explosives, those who SMUGGLE weapons and bombers across our bombers, those who HIDE the terrorists, those who FEED and FUND them, those who ORDER them to commit their deeds, and finally those who GLORIFY them, RECRUTING the next wave of killers.

Suicide bombings did not begin with the current war. They begun over 8 years ago when the Palestinian Authority came into being, and Yasser Arafat has not done a single thing since then to stop them, even when he had all the power he could have needed, including his 40,000 strong Police force and popular local support. A short chronology of events :

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September 13 1993 – Signing in Washington of the Declaration of Principles on Palestinian autonomy.

April 6, 1994 — Palestinian parks car rigged with explosives next to bus in Afula, in northern Israel. Nine Israelis killed. Militant Muslim group Hamas claims responsibility.

4 May 1994. In Cairo Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin ratify the modalities for implementing the 13 September 1993 accord. (leading to the Israeli withdrawl from Gaza and Jericho and Arafat’s entry into territories)

Oct. 19, 1994 – Palestinian suicide bomber kills 22 Israelis in bus explosion in Tel Aviv. Hamas claims responsibility. Arafat moves against Hamas – None.

Jan. 22, 1995 —Two Palestinians blow themselves up at the Beit Lid junction in central Israel, killing 21 Israelis. Islamic Jihad claims responsibility. Arafat moves against Islamic Jihad – None.

26 September 1995 . Signing of an interim accord (known as Oslo II) on extending Palestinian autonomy. (Leading to Israeli withdrawl from Qalkilya, Tul Karem, Jenin, Nablus, Bethlehem plus a multitude of smaller population centers. 95% of Palestinians now live under the Palestinian Authority)

April 9, 1995 – Two Palestinians blow themselves up outside two Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip, killing seven Israeli soldiers and an American. Hamas and Islamic Jihad claim responsibility. Arafat moves against Hamas / Islamic Jihad – None.

Feb. 25, 1996 – Palestinian suicide bombers blow up bus in Jerusalem and soldiers’ hitchhiking post in coastal city of Ashkelon, killing 24 Israelis, two Americans and a Palestinian. Hamas claims responsibility. Arafat moves against Hamas – None.

March 3, 1996 – Bus bomb in Jerusalem kills at least 18 people, including six Romanians and two Palestinians. Hamas claimed responsibility. Arafat moves against Hamas – Symbolic arrest of leading militants, most released with a few months.

March 4, 1996 – Suicide bomber blows himself up outside a Tel Aviv shopping center, killing at least 14 people. Arafat moves against Hamas – Symbolic arrest of leading militants, most released with a few months.

July 30, 1997 — Two bombers kill themselves and 15 others in an outdoor Jerusalem market. Leaflet signed by Hamas’ military wing claims responsibility. Arafat moves against Hamas – None.

23 October 1998. Wye Plantation agreement. Israel agrees to withdraw from 13% more of the West Bank within three months, open a “safe passage” between the West Bank and Gaza and release 700 Palestinian prisoners, in exchange for the Palestinian Authority’s (PA) undertaking to crack down harder on terrorist movements. (needless to say, such a crack down did not take place)

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With all due respect, calling on Israel to observe a cease-fire is, for want of a better word, bullshit. The truth is that Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat has been playing everyone for a fool for over 8 years now, continuing to whine as he continues to shoot. Palestinians continue to kill Israelis with impunity, allowing suicide-bombers to operate freely. The Palestinian terrorists came and come from Palestinian controlled territories and most of them could have been stopped by Arafat. He knows their names. Some of them are members of his own security organizations and his own quasi-military militias! Arafat deceived the entire world when, in the Oslo accord, he solemnly pledged to abandon armed struggle as a method for achieving his goal. This terrorism, the incessant Palestinian incitement against Israel (which thanks to Geforce was brought to this forum too), the hopelessness bestowed upon both peoples, is what is driving the current Israeli offensive. Israelis have nothing to apologize for when they are engaged in doing what Arafat himself should be doing – namely, preventing terrorist activities. You can say that it’s not helpful towards peace, but it is simply too late for that, we have no other choice.

Of course, there are always those who suggest that Israel should give up some more, withdraw even further, take even less procautions than it does now. This did not bring us peace in the past and will not bring it in the future. It is APPEASEMENT, it will not bring about peace, quite the opposite, it will just prove that terrorism succeds, spurring even more attacks. Some of you have been saying that all that needs to happen is for Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Yet despite what people may wish to believe, the occupation is not the sole source of tensions in this region. If Israel withdraws in the face of Palestinian terrorism, without Yasser Arafat made to live up to his commitments, what to prevent them from continuing their terrorist activities when they demand Jerusalem? Or when they demand the right of return of all Palestinian refugees to Israel proper, in effect destroying Israel? Why should the Syrians negotiate with Israel over the Golan Heights when they can just terrorize us? Why should the Lebanese negotiate with Israel on disputed territory when they can simply send the Hizbullah to kidnap even more Israeli soldiers? After all, they’ve already got Muslim and European nations, such as France and Belgium, justifing any anti-Israeli atrocity in the name of some political goal or another …

You know, I remember the signing of the Oslo accords on the White House lawn in September 1993. I was 17, riding the bus from Tel Aviv to my hometown, listening to the ceremony on my walkman. I was really happy that day, the future looked so promising. Little did I know that peace would mean that I would not be able to ride a bus, go to a restaurant or go to a night club without having to fear for my life.

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 10:26 PM (GMT)]In order to discuss such subjects in a serious manner, one has to know what he’s talking about.

Palestine was never a British colony, it was under a mandate granted to Britain by the United Nations. Nor were Palestinians ever British subjects. The British cared for no one but themselves, and their opposition to Jewish aspirations had nothing to do with Palestinian rights. After all, only a decade before they had practically wiped several Palestinian villages off the map in their attempts to quell the Great Revolt of 1936-1939.

As for the characteristics of Israeli leaders, those are debatble, but rather insignificant right now. It is Israel who allowed Yasser Araft back to the territories, it is Israel that withdrew from Palestinian cities, it is Israel who allowed him to form his security services, with over 40,000 men at his disposal, it is Israel which supplied him with weapons and ammunition, and it is Israel which fulfilled its commitments in a process that would have led to the formation of an independant Palestinian state. All he had to, AS HE HAD COMMITED TO DO BY THE AGREEMENTS HE HAD SIGNED HIMSELF, was to control violent elements in the Palestinian Authority and to stop attacks on Israelis. Not only did he fail to follow on his commitments, he had in fact fostered, supported and directed them in their campaign of terrorism against Israel. Where do you even begin to compare this to the situation in Palestine during the 1940s? I somehow don’t recall the British doing anything to adress Jewish aspirations.

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: TUAF Focke Wulf and Spitfire

If you think this is weird, then what about the Israeli Air Force’s Avia S.199s ? A Nazi design (Czech manufactured Bf.109), instrumental in driving back invading Arab armies during the opening months of the Israeli war of independence !!!
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