SlowManwell, i’ll say we Chinese are far more desperate & persistent SOBs on domestic military engines than our neighbor.
Unlike India, China doesn’t even have the option of buying US and European engines and China’s local engines aren’t working, forcing them to rely on Russia for engines.
SlowManJF-17 is not half developed.. it was designed for Pakistan because the Chinese don’t want to sell them their best things.
So which one of China’s jets aren’t for export? Su-27 series aren’t because of issues with Russia, and J-20 might not be for export, but that’s about it. Everything else is for sale.
As for KFX, South Korea needs Pak-fa, its as simple as that.
It won’t be IOC ready by 2017.
the S.Koreans love their T-80s and it certainly whooped the derriers of their K1 tanks.
Then why not buy some more?
why does Korea need PAKFA? to fight China?
Yes. The KFX itself is for A2A combat against China over the Yellow Sea and North Korea.
they don’t have a conflict with China.
The ROK actually have the biggest conflict with China of all, over the future of North Korea and the return of Eastern Manchuria to Korea that Japan illegally exchanged for the rights to Manchurian Railway at the beginning of the 20th century.
China would be better off with North Korea out of the picture and a unified Korean Peninsula with the Americans gone,
Americans are not going anywhere after the fall of North Korean regime.
I think China might make a bargain that they wont interfere but since it was NK that brought the US to Korea the US should leave when NK is no more.
Not only aren’t US troops going anywhere, they will actually expand in the post Kim regime North Korea with air and naval bases only a few hundred km away from Beijing.
SlowManIf Kaveri’s dead, then try to use license produced Snecma M88 for the Rafale. The French aren’t so strict as to where their weapons go and India would be able to export Tejas with M88 engine just fine. The French doesn’t care as long as they are paid.
SlowManThe USAF and DoD are not allowed to ask for that! It is not in the KPP list
You are confused here; there is no final KPP, only a preliminary incomplete partial KPP for a vendor feedback. This one lacks the mandatory minimum max speed figure as the USAF has yet to decide whether to go supersonic or stay subsonic, which depends on the number of bidders offering supersonic airframes(KAI, Boeing, and Saab)
This is you yet again trying to sneak in this idea that only a jet with high altitude transonic performance can perform the LIFT role for the USAF. The USAF uses the F-16D to help transition pilots to their newest jets because the T-28 is obsolete and can’t perform all the syllabus! The M-346 has more then enough performance as does the Hawk T.2 to perform the LIFT role for late generation fighters.
The USAF requires 6.5 sustained G as listed in the preliminary KPP. Neither M-346 nor Hawk can meet this as is.
SlowManWell ‘more than’ would be meaningless if supersonic wasn’t important.
It could have been other factors like cost, avionics, endurance.
But the Alenia source picked “Supersonic”, so that was what was in his mind.
Alenia obviously thought that supersonic was important enough that they could say a ‘high sustained-G environment’ is more important.
Which would suggest the USAF has been asking for supersonic capability to vendors.
your logic is wack. the M-346 kicked the **** of the T-50 in every competition they went up against.
M-346 won in Singapore and Israel and lost in Indonesia and Philippines, and all but lost in UAE.
Israel was a politically motivated decision and had nothing to do with the terms and quality of bids.
People obviously found the M-346 good enough.
The M-346 is good enough if there are F-16Ds available for transition training. The M-346 is not good enough if there are no two seaters available.
However don’t fret, the US will likely go for the T-50 because its a very American aircraft.
Well, if that was the case then the T-50 would still be in development today like Lockheed’s F-35 with its 20 year development cycle, 26 years if including X-35.
Mostly designed by Americans with almost all of its key components being American.
T-50 is currently 65% Korean and the Koreans are trying to lower this figure for the T-X contest.
Similar to Taiwan and the Ching Kuo.
Yes, Ching Kuo engineers indeed developed the first version of T-50.
SlowMannow J-31
paper airplane: No, its flying and will be developed
That depends on Shenyang Military Region’s ability to cut a deal with the central communist party, or it becomes a half-developed export-only jet like the JF-17 due to lack of funding.
Bays: Pics shows there are bay panels that are open
The F-35 from which the Shenyang Aircraft Corp downloaded design plans from is having trouble with its weapons bay door in the air. The Chinese will encounter the same problem.
Ability to do on their own: No, the Chinese need Russian help, but not the same extent the Koreans needing outside.
Chinese too need help badly. This is why China has been pressuring Europe to lift its arms embargo against China, so that China could import European engines and weapons parts.
Actually Korea should just buy J-31..
And the CIA and the US DoD people would be inspecting it the day after its arrival in Korea.
after all dont they hate the Japanese more than the Chinese? LOLOL
Koreans hate China more than Japan.
SlowManAfter years of progress for both projects, I wonder why they are not joining hands together.
The AMCA is merely at a study phase at this point with the Indian industry having their hands full with Su-30MKI, PAK-FA, Rafale, and LCA productions, whereas the KFX is actually moving forward, about to enter a full-blown development phase.
Another issue is the politics. A multinational fighter project works the best when there is a lead country to pull the project forward. Having a bunch of nations with “equal” stakes drags the project down in politics. For example, Turkey left the KFX project over the stake dispute where Turkey wanted 40:40:20(Indonesia), but Korea’s line on the sand was 51:29:20. Turkey only returned to the negotiation table after having tried its own study.
SlowMan/facepalm
The phrase ‘more importantly than supersonic’ does NOT in any way indicate that supersonic is important.
Well, it could have been anything else like price, endurance, in-cockpit simulation, etc. But “Supersonic” was the word that Alenia insider used when his company’s product wasn’t supersonic capable(Diving doesn’t count).
I guess you also ‘forgot’ eagle’s previous response to you up-thread
I need not reply to Eagle’s comment because he’s wrong.
Alenia’s own brochures claim 5.2~5.6 max sustained G at 15,000 feet with no mention of fuel load, so M-346’s sustained G is almost 1 G below the USAF requirement in the best case scenario, this is a fact. Also compare the M-346’s external armament of 3 tons to the T-50’s 5.4 tons, and you can see there are significant structural strength differences between two.
SlowManSo let me see if I can get this straight.
Korea is thinking about building a stealthed up 4th generation fighter with conformal weapons carriage.
The chart says “Internal Weapons Bay”, not a “conformal weapons pod”.
Remind me again why they shouldn’t just buy some Eurofighters since that is what they seem intent on re-inventing.
1. No plans to achieve VLO.
2. Cost.
3. Pace of development(Korea = fast, Europe = slow)
SlowManWhy is that a strange comment? Looking for sustained high-G does not mean the platform with higher/highest sustained G is preferred, simply meeting the performance thresh-hold is sufficient.
The M-346 doesn’t meet the 6.5 sustained-g requirement, while the M-346’s rival does.
Where is the USAF is indeed asking for Supersonic speed?
I was making that observation from the Alenia insider’s comment “More importantly than supersonic”.
The M-346 is not a supersonic jet, yet the Alenia insider mentions “Supersonic” as being an important feature to the USAF.
SlowManSpeaking of J-31, it is a local venture of Shenyang Military Region(Recall that each military region is an independent army) with no backing from the central government, similar to Chengu Military Region’s private venture JF-17.
Maybe Shenyang Military Region is hoping that the central communist party will buy some if J-20 turns out too expensive or as a naval jet, or it could end up being a Shenyang and export only jet.
SlowManIn the U.S., the T-100 will compete with the supersonic T-50 built by Korea Aerospace Industries and backed by Lockheed, and the BAE Systems’ Hawk, on which Northrop Grumman is teaming.
“More importantly than supersonic, the [Air Force] is specifically looking for a high sustained-G environment, and the M-346 was designed for that,” an Alenia source said.
“The plan is to assemble the plane in the U.S., with U.S. content increasing from the current 50 percent,” DiBiase said.
The T-100’s non-U.S. origin would not count against it since the T-50 and the Hawk were similarly non-American, he said.
This is a pretty strange comment since the T-50 can sustain higher G than the M-346. And the USAF is indeed asking for Supersonic afterall?
SlowManSeriously? The J-31 is actually flying.
But that’s about it. Flying is 1/3rd of the job.
The term “paper aircraft” is overused, but in this case it clearly applies.
A paper plane wouldn’t fly in just 4 years.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/kf-x-flight-test-in-2016-or-2017-363692/
KF-X flight test in 2016 or 2017
By: STEPHEN TRIMBLE WASHINGTON DC 05:00 24 Oct 2011 Source:Seoul intends its KF-X fighter to enter flight tests in 2016 or 2017 in the middle of an eight-year engineering and manufacturing development (EMD) phase, with a seven-aircraft flight-test fleet.
On 21 October, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) outlined details of the acquisition strategy in an interview at the Seoul air show, although the plans are not final until the EMD programme starts in 2013.
SlowManor in other words, paper project.
No more paper than J-31.
it has yet to even decide on what engine it will use
Or use both. T-50 for example can use both F404 and EJ200 if necessary.
Golden Eagle was also a result of the F-16 offsets when Korea bought the lawndarts.. thus Lockmart also was the main designer in practice
If Lockheed was the primary engineering firm, then it would still be in development instead of being finished in 7 years.
With out lockmarts help, KAI wouldn’t be able to complete key systems on their own like FADEC.
FADEC is an engine controller that had nothing to do with an airframe vendor like Lockheed or KAI.
Lies. Russia offered Pak-fa but withdrew it because Korea couldn’t offer it a fair playing ground because we know how Korea is biased towards the US
Koreans begged Russians to participate in the bid but Russians decided not to, most likely because they weren’t comfortable with Americans being around and the fact that it the PAK-FA would not make the 2017 IOC deadline.
It has nothing to do with a bias for US product; if that was the case then F-35 wouldn’t be the first jet to be booted out of the F-X contest.
SlowManpaper planes can’t super cruise or even fly.
no proof the J-20 or J-31 can or can’t supercruise.
Chinese don’t have access to supercruising engines.
The KFX’s reference engine is EJ220(10% thrust unlocked version of EJ200). The possible option is F414 EPE. Both will supercruise.
South Korea doesn’t have the industrial capabilities to design this on their own.
When Koreans had 40% of needed tech in 2006, the project went nowhere.
When Koreans have 87% of needed tech in 2013, the project is finally moving forward.
It was mostly a Lockmart design.
Actually AIDC Ching Kuo team’s design. Lockheed did only consulting and design validation work.
The solution for South Korea is simple. Buy FGFA.
Russia said no to PAK-FA sales.
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