Dear Ja Worsley,
I know verywell that you use $s (i have relatives in Melbourne) , i wrote € because the article i read had written that. Since the exact amount was not given it doesnt matter much tho. I didnt know it was the French ones you complain about. We had similar problems with some cougars when we initially got them. But i think its been solved now.. French quality (!)..

I like the new Mangusta better than all the helos in the tender. Anyway.. We will see very soon the result. The recent offers from Eurocopter makes this competition very interesting. And for the first time in ATAK history i have the hope that this time we will make a decision. :p

The Tiger is the new kid on the block and with it’s advanced composit contruction and airframe make it a very sought after machine. Australia is already planing on fitting our 22 (and any others we might be buying soon) with MMW Radar giving it a capability just above a Lowgbow. What I find really interesting with the Tiger is the fact that the pilot sits in front and the WSO behind, to me that just makes sence!

Isnt Australia complaining about the underpowered engines of Tigre? I read some people are really pissed off and complain that it will cost extra hundred million €s to bring the chopers to the standards requested by army.

ink dont worry, we Turks are pretty clever.. The looks are most of the time deceiving.

Infact we are trying hard to distribute the balance of weapon procurements to various sources. Maybe you dont know but Turkey has military ties even with China and Russia in some projects. Israel has been a major source of tech. input since late 90s.

The armed forces request primarily a Turkish mission computer and full access to the source codes in order to integrate any weapons system. This kills the chance of any US based system, hence there is no formal US candidate in ATAK II. Had you known anything about Turkey you’d know that AH-64 D is the most unlikely candidate “today”. There is a national AT missile project with code name UMAT (LongRangeAT) which will be the primary weapon of the helo chosen. The helicopter chosen in ATAK II must thus have a national flight and mission computer thus integrations can be done locally. Currently Agusta and Denel are ok with this.

Dont know the details abt EC but have read a recent article which quotes EC CEO Bregier saying “We are allowing Turkish Industre to integrate the equipment they produce, weapons and software. TSK is the biggest Armed forces of Europe. (Our) Product is a European product and the country we offer this is a country preparing to enter EU.” He also added although it was not requested they offered SSM equal partnership with approval of France-Germany.

IMHO this is the most interesting of all the offers since Tigre is relativly newer than Rooivalk and Mangusta but its also considerably more expensive than the other 2. Most people guess it will ve Mangusta that will be selected, Rooivalk being a strong second candidate.

SAR responsibility within Athens FIR is not the responsibility of Turkey.

Athens control has the responsibility to send aircraft to ID unknowns within Athens FIR, and the Turks did not file flight plans or inform Athens FIR.

Heheh the sterotype we are used to hear.. It gets boring after so many years.

Gentlemen,
this thread is about fighter procurement of TuAF. Not politics..

Fantasma if you make unrelated discussion elsewhere we can continiue discussing.

If you realised the second part of my post shows a replacement option for the unmodernised F-4s which will have to go first and very soon is being sought by the airforce and MoD .. If an option of F-16 purchase is really exercised here it will be the TIs that be replaced with the F-35s/EF2000s which are discussed in this topic. However if the modernisation option is selected (which is highly unlikely) and an F-16 purchase doesnt take place today then we might expect the F-4s to go first in 2015+s.. But the f-16 attritions and the aging blk30s might push the TuAF to opt for F-16 now, scrap the F-4s and later in 2015s gradually retire the modernised F-4s..

However you have a point with your latest statement.. Its still too early to comment. When talkin about Turkish arms purchases you have to wait until there is signature on paper..

Turkey To Buy 100 Fighter Jets

By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, ANKARA

NATO member Turkey plans to buy 100 new-generation combat aircraft under a $10 billion (8.3 billion euro) project over the next 20 years, Anatolia news agency quoted a senior official as saying March 28.

By the end of the year, Ankara will make a choice between the U.S. F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, whose construction is led by Lockheed Martin, and the Eurofighter, being built by a European consortium, the head of the defense industries undersecretariat, Murad Bayar, said in Washington.

The new warplanes would replace F-16 and F-4 aircraft currently used by the Turkish Air Force, Bayar said.

Under the project, the government is aiming to ensure that sub-contracts worth 5$ billion are awarded to Turkish companies, he added.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1649084&C=europe

The news clearly states that the purchase of the 100 new generation fighters is related with the replacement of F4-TI 2020s and F-16 blk30s not the old and non modernised F-4Es who are at the end of their service life.. Both the TI2020s and F-16 blk30s have enough life in them to wait for the introduction of F-35 or EF2000-TIII which are both expected after 2015.

For the urgent need of replacing the unmodernised F-4Es there has been the options of modernising a batch, or going for a new plane type either purchase or lease. The decision on this is still not given since the 600m$ cost for modernising 48 Phantoms is being heavily criticised by many including the airforce itself. Considering the fact that Greece has recently purchased 30 new F-16 s for 1.3b$ recently has increased the objections to the modernisation plans. So it is a possiblity that there might be a Peace Onyx IV soon which will realise a purchase of more F-16s.

Related news is below.

Turkey mulls new F-16s instead of F-4 upgrades
Wednesday, March 29, 2006
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Washington/Ankara – Exclusive by TDN Defense Desk

Turkey’s military and defense procurement officials are mulling buying a new fleet of F-16 fighters instead of going for upgrades on the country’s aging F-4 fighters.

If finalized, the decision will scrap a program for the upgrading of 48 F-4 fighter jets. Instead, Turkey seeks to buy a batch of 30 F-16 fighters.

“That (opting for the F-16s) is an alternative,” Murad Bayar, Turkey’s top procurement official, said in Washington, where he is attending the annual conference of the American-Turkish Council, an umbrella organization for Turkish-American corporate and governmental relations.

A defense official said the F-4 upgrade program would cost Turkey nearly $500 million but that there were serious questions over the wisdom of the program. “We are not sure if it is worth spending that money for platforms that may be in service for another eight to 10 years,” he said. “But then, we surely need an alternative if we scrap the upgrade program.”

Turkey has long been considering canceling the F-4 upgrade program and seeking alternatives to meet the Turkish Air Forces’ operational requirements. Tusas Aerospace Industries Inc. (TAI), the prime contractor for the upgrade program, has proposed a $480 million solution. Nearly a $400 million part of that contract would go to Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI), the prime contractor for the first upgrade program that covered 54 F-4s.

“We will decide in line with the current threat analysis,” said a defense official. “But I think we are heading for a cancellation of the upgrade program in favor of new fighters.”

A defense industry source said Turkey has recently been in talks with Lockheed Martin, the world’s biggest defense company, for the purchase of a fleet of used F-16s, but the American company has failed to commit itself to such a deal, citing the “unavailability” of used fighters. “I guess Turkey is heading for a deal for new F-16s. That could be about 30 aircraft,” the official said.

The Turkish Ministry of Defense, the original decision-maker on the modality of the upgrade program, decided last year to task the country’s civilian procurement office, the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM), to administer the F-4 upgrade contract. Under the program, 48 F-4s are to be upgraded. Half of the 54 aircraft under the first program were upgraded at IAI plants and the other half at an air maintenance unit in Eskisehir. Two of the upgraded aircraft ended up crashing during training flights.

The Turkish Air Forces, before the change of top command last August, had insisted that the second batch also be awarded to IAI “for a quicker solution.” But Bayar, head of the SSM, had advised the Defense Ministry that the new upgrades should be done locally.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=39346

Regards