How about F-35 lightning? why does the UK and Canada insist on these confusing name/designation changes??? Pride??? I mean CH-124 hardly lines up with with SH-3!!! or Phantom FGR.2?!?
Really what is the point???
In the USA its the “F-35A/B/C lightning II” not the “F-35 lightning”, the “Lightning” was the P-38.
In GB they have their own designation system so its normal that they call whatever they want, afterall they´ve payed the aircrafts, so if they call them Lightning, Fury, Spitfire or Dave, thats their choice.
Its nothing unusual, the Spanish by example call the Mirage F1, the “C14”, the Hornet “C15” and the Typhoon “C16”.
Dave?
I didn’t realise you and the F-35 were on first name terms! 😀
😀
Would anyone know the projected designations for the UK F-35’s (eg Lightning FGA Mk 1)?:confused:
Dave FGA Mk1
Brazil FX2: Dassault Rafale
Indian Helo: CH-47
Indian Transport: C-295
Indian SARS: Postponed till 2050
Malaysian MMRCA: Dassault Rafale
Swiss AF: Saab Gripen
Korean FX: F-35
The first Su-35 export customer: Vietnam
There was something that was nagging me about this entire debate and i couldnt nail it, now i know what was.
This debate is entirely academic, the budget that the MOD and the British Government has marked for the entire JCA “Demonstration & Manufacture Phase” was initialy £2,482m and it was pared down to £2,112m.
This £2,112m includes the development phase (contracted through the 2006 JSF MOU) and the acquisition of the aircrafts, not only the three initial airframes, but the “whole shebang”…
This means something like “right now the MOD doesnt have money to buy a single sqn of JCA´s”.
If you have any doubts, get a good read of the NAO “Ministry of Defence: The Major Projects Report 2011”
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/1012/major_projects_report_2011.aspx
Either the MOD gets more money or it kills something reaaaaally big to fund the JCA acquisition, because with the budget marked for the foreseable future there will be just enough to acquire a handfull (literaly) of airframes.
Those are ERs so how do the ranges stack up?
Marte ER – 100 kms+
Konhsberg NSM – 185 km+
So I suppose the question will be is what will the payload performance of an F35B operating off a normal long runway with Voyager tanker support. Also what other aircraft types could launch the Stormshadow, in particular the palletised solution for the A400. Or could the A400’s wing pylon points for air to air refuelling be equipped for the wiring and multi point pylon for missile launch. Or does stand off penetration strike become purely a Royal Navy thing with cruise missiles launched from submarines and surface ships with the F35B being all about CAS…I can’t see the Air Lord Marshall-ships being overly keen on that!
Stick CFT´s to the Typhoon´s T2 and T3A and the problem solved, at least this one, but if the Typhoon fleet is used on out of area operations doing long range strike, recon, ATA, etc, another arises, what will the RAF use to do QRA?
They have production commitments to General Atomics for EMALS and AAG ahead of the JFK There would generally be some kind of cancellation penalty.
Nope, AFAIK there are no signed contracts to acquire Emals.
The November letter to Congress by DCSA is not a contract, is an expression of interest.
There are some very small contracts for design and engineering support, thats all.
Even with reduced T/R counts it will still be more powerfull than heli born radar. and certainly pass the minimum range requirements as it was the only radar that full exploited weopons during tests.
IAF does not have any experiance with AESA equiped MIGs and the firm behind it. Have they even looked the foundries behind T/R modules for AESA radars.
Google “Non Sequitur”.
1 – There´s one single public comment about a suposed “Captor E” heli demonstration, and that was made by a Mig employee, it was never confirmed by any one in Selex, Eurofighter, EADS or the Indian Air Force, i am more than willing to bet that the chap confounded the sea spray work done by Selex with an AESA prototype for the “Phoon”.
2 – Even if it was test flown in an Helicopter what was there to make the underpopulated 680 TRM AESA Zhuk to be “still be more powerfull than heli born radar”?!
There are a bucket load of operational radars flying in helicopters, who are vastly more performants than the Zhuk prototype.
Being “Heli” tested is by no means any indication on capability.



3 – “and certainly pass the minimum range requirements as it was the only radar that full exploited weopons during tests”
What the hell does radar range requirements have to do with weapons release during tests?!
And i would imagine that you had access to Indian Air Force tests reports, did you?
I would imagine that in six contenders only the Mig proposal managed to “fully exploit weapons during tests”, because everyone else is incompetent, dumb, or daft. Undoutebly that the Boeing chaps, with their combat proven, widely used and with a bucket load of integrated weapons, AN/APG-79, didnt “fully exploit weapons during tests”!
So what happens to all the money already committed to modifying the two carriers to CATOBAR? From past precedence cancelling the contract could be more expensive than the contract itself, so… is the MOD going to pay to have them converted to STOVL again?:confused:
What “money already committed to modifying the two carriers to CATOBAR”?
It´s not that hard to figure why the RN would endorse going back to the F-35B.
Two CVF´s prepared to use them instead of one, getting a decent number of RAF chaps capable of actually flying from the carriers and having an early IOC for HMS Queen Elizabeth instead of a late IOC for HMS Prince of Wales are three very decent reasons.
Excellent! Can you tell me where the marginal costs are published? I’m sick of seeing the full cost compared with the marginal costs of US types.
X2
F35B + 2 carriers
X2
I’m sure the RAF are very defensive of the GR4’s capabilities. The simple fact is though that the operations you list saw Mirages, Jaguars, F-18’s, F-16’s etc deployed that contributed fully despite not being possessed of GR4’s range. The Tornado was conceived for a purpose and has on occasion proven useful for its weapon carry and range, but, often enough to require a manned replacement?. Nope. Going forward pursuing manned deep strike is begging for obsolescence.
As you say above a shorter ranged light striker can have its range extended by AAR or, if STOL, by the simple expedient of basing closer to the operational theatre. You cant take such steps to mitigate the costs of a big twin and if the runway is too short to deploy heavy fastjets to then you are faced with extending it or finding somewhere else to fly from…however much time that plugs into your localise-to-hit operational cycle.
…and its the last point thats key. Afghan and Libya have proved that a ready-responder capability is essential to exploit theatre surveillance as it can be provided now. However impressive the range of your heavy twin interdictor there is always the issue that, bombed-up, you are subsonic and, if you need to use the long range, you are looking at an hour lag in weapon delivery. A long-legged jet can loiter, but, only in a permissive environment and at the cost of airframe flight hours, weapon carriage hours and increased maintenance to regenerate. Fleets are smaller now so there isnt the same ability to spread airframe wear fleet wide…likewise pgm stocks are smaller so burning through airframe carry lives uselessly tooling round on cab-rank waiting for a tasking call is less than efficient.
Again citing Libya French Rafale-M’s were 200nm offshore and delivering effects 20 minutes from the launch – the advantage there is obvious. The closer the ability to base the better – enabling that and the faster response time is now more useful than raw range performance.
Jonesy
An USAF F-16 Block 50/52 or a US Navy F-18 ladden with external fuel has the range of the Tornado, an Harrier or Jaguar doesnt. A classical Hornet carries the same amount of internal fuel that does a Tornado while weighting two tons less.
Today´s F-16 is an aircraft weighting from 8,5 ton to 10 ton clean, a Jaguar or a Gripen weights 7 ton´s, a Jump Jet GR9 weights 5,7 ton.
You can substitute a Tornado with a RAFALE, a Block 60 Viper, a JSF, a Super Hornet or a Typhoon, you cant do it with a “light” VSTOL fighter (Gripen?).
And AAR is fine and dandy, unless you have to fly the refuelers over contested airspace.
When i said that the Harriers (or Jaguars) had to tag along refuelers over Yugoslavia and Iraq it was literaly so, the refuelers were flying over enemy airspace. If there werent F-15´s, Tornados F3, Tornados GR4, F117, Strike Eagles, Vipers,Hornets to clear the way, the Harriers and jag´s would be flying to the edges of the combat zone, because the Refuelers couldnt follow.
Quite contrary to your belief, far from being obsolescent, subsonic range and ATG capability are all the rage now, every single combat aircraft on the market (with the exception of the Gripen and the FC17) have an equivalent range to the Tornado GR4. Subsonic ATG (backed up by eight tons of internal fuel) is the primary mission of Dave A, the aircraft that is suposed to be the “future of Western Air power”.
Yes a light multi role aircraft could be a good adition for the RAF, IF the Tonka mission was carried by another platform (the Typhoon with bigger external fuel tanks, JCA or both), and dont get it wrong, long range air strike, was, is, and will be essential in any armed conflict.
And if your answer is “unmanned”, well, lovely idea and concept, on theory i would agree completely, now were are the extra 15+ billion pounds to develop and acquire 150 platform´s (never mind the satelite network)?
BTW, what STOL light strikers are there on the market? No model of F-35 is a light striker. Greater empty weight than Typhoon, similar installed thrust.
Absolutely correct.
The F35B is heavier than a F4E Phantom or a Tornado GR4…