Saab proposed 24 new Gripens C/D for the same cost.
The decision was political.

Scorpion

The offer was for 24 second hand Vipers “refurbished” to a MLU Tape4 level, plus training and a handfull of weapons for roughly 1 Billion Euros. The jets were “offered” the refurbishment wasnt. While the Romanian government expressed its preference for the American option, the opposition cried “bloody murder”, the economy is in dire straits and no contract was signed till today.

Cheers

I meant “by the USN”… interesting to see how hard-up the Portuguese were for fighters, though.

“hard-up” is a good definition indeed, it was either the A-7P or the Fiat G91 “Gina”. The F-86 was retired in 1980 (yes, 1980) and the Viper arrived in 1994, so the A-7 had to stand up for the QRA and air defence missions.

Oh, really?

Well, and then if Russia is not a threat at all to them, can’t you see them saying “oh, no, thanks. It is your problem up north. That is no threat to us.”

Noooo! They will come in force and fight and die on behalf of someone else. Now this is a sound reasoning on which to base the defence strategy of the UK.
And to think well about it, everyone on NATO should just plan in the optic that the allies will be ready and willing to fight and die for them and disarm as well, even faster than they already are.
Then there will be no serious NATO anymore, but there will still be the US. Oh, they would come for sure, wouldn’t they? Perhaps it would be a bit late, but they would, no?

Or perhaps, without a new Pearl Harbour to give them a push, they may decide that they are better off caring about their own business…?
The US consideration of many allies has been going downhill dangerously seen the way they have escaped providing more assets for Afghanistan when they were asked. I think they are tired of a NATO that is, admittedly, an organization that lives on the US shoulders and more and more tends to hide behind America’s broad frame.

Americans officers, also in the NATO meetings, have been very vocal about the ever shrinking defence budgets in Europe and the way Europe’s might is becoming smaller and smaller and less and less relevant, while still openly relying on America’s help.
And you can’t honestly blame them, if you make a little effort and try to see what NATO is becoming with their eyes. From their point of view, you’ll see NATO in a whole different way.

Now, did i discuss force levels? Did i discuss the disparity between the European defense budgets and the Pentagon endless pot of gold?
NO, i didnt.
I´ve just pointed out an obvious fact, the chances of happening a snowstorm in Ougadougou are multiple times higher than the Russian Black Fleet being capable of forcing its way through a 30 km´s long, 3/2 kms wide (in certain points its just 700 m), channell right through the heart of Istambul… You could pick the entire Russian Navy and try to force a passage, the end result would be a huge pile of metal and dead bodies, then you could send the RN, Marine Nationale and Bundesmarine to try to help the Russians, the end result would be the same.
On this particular point geography is everything, a handfull of snipers with o.50 Barrets would efectively “mission kill” such a breakthrough (a 0.50 impact on a comunications, or radar, antena isnt pretty), a few mines would deny the passage for days, the entire Turkish Armed Forces can deny the right of passage to Darth Vader himself untill the end of times.
The only way to force such a passage is to have control of the two margins, thats 2×30 kms for the Bosphorus and another 2×60 kms for the Dardanelles, it also means controling Istambul and the suburbs, a small town of 13 million souls. Not to mention the second biggest armed forces in NATO.

Useless debate and waste of time; if Pepe Rezende, as i think, has had access to the FAB report, it is useless to oppose him any manufacturer’s propaganda or 3rd hand “information” coming from a blog. This will not alter the FAB report even if you don’t like it 😉
You can just say : i trust Saab and don’t believe Pepe Rezende.

Dannell

For much that i respect Pepe (and i really, really do), the idea that for an equivalent configuration the overall RCS of a Rafale being 1% of the SH is borderline ridiculous. I will repeat, thats simply preposterous, or the configurations were not equivalent or someone made a huge technical mistake and should be “beach slaped”.

Cheers

Recently the UK Treasury apparently asked departments to invisage massive cuts of the order of 40%+. So without debating the reality of such a statement or whether it will come to pass, what would you keep and what would you bin if you were the MOD and had been told that come next April you have a 50% budget cut. Which “half” of the UK armed forces would you keep.

LETS NOT debate whether this would be a good idea (it obviously isn’t) and lets not debate if it will actually happen (almost certainly not) but cuts are coming and perhaps a discussion about a “50%” armed forces might focus some of the discussions we are having on what really matters.

A final point to add a dose of reality is the recent reports about the future of the German armed forces where “50%” has been talked about openly (reality or not).

so…..which half are you keeping?

The entire expeditionary capability is slashed, the RAF fast jet fleet is scraped to a mere 4 active + 1 OCU Typhoon sqn´s, JCA is scraped, A400 is scraped, FSTA is scraped, Nimrod is scraped, the RN goes to 14 escorts (6 T45+ 8 T23), four Hunter killer subs, the nuclear option amounts to five tube launched TAC Toms with a “spiced” tip, CVF is canned, the Royal Marines go to the battallion level, the Army is downsized to a 2 active + 2 “reserve” brigades with one single Challye II regiment in the entire structure.
Civilian MOD employees goes up by 25%. The new defence secretary is knighted…

I´ll get me coat.

Cheers

I so bet LMTAS respond with a 2 seat F-16 version!

New build airframes without advanced avionics and production ability set up and economies of scales will be very appealing.

Additionally half the USAF instructor pilots and maintainers will be familiar.

Arrows

The T-50 is a two seat Viper lite.
KAI and Lockheed Martin picked the basic design of the viper, replaced the F100/F101 with a smaller engine, relocated the air intake “et voilá” the Golden Eagle was born.
I will be astounded if LM offers any other design than the T-50.
The USAF is cash straped, an 8/9 ton aircraft doesnt have much chances to win that one, by comparison with your regular Hawk, Alpha Jet, etc, the Viper is quite expensive to operate.

Cheers