I hoping and praying that the F-16IN proves to be as expensive as the Block 60ones they sold to UAE, but I’m not sure if they included the development cost in that price as well..those Block 60 Desert Falcons were priced around $ 80 million apiece !
In 2000…
There has been an inflation of ~10% a year for every combat aircraft produced in the USA (and probably in the rest of the world), and before someone starts throwing rocks, that number was given by RAND.
The fact that ~85% of the aircrafts involved in the MRCA deal are going to be built in India changes the cost equation in a dramatic way. The typical numbers that we find in the FMS for the “Teen series”, or for the Eurocanards in the press, dont mean squat for such a massive buy (coupled with an “indigenous” assembly line).
Cheers
then name the missile and tranche that carries it.
None
None of the partners or the two external buyers have asked for the integration of ANY anti ship missile.
But that doesn´t mean anything in the Japapanese context, not one single of the mentioned competitors (Typhoon, next Gen Eagle, Super Hornet, F35, Rafale) can carry the ASM-2s. It´s not integrated in any of them.
The 2006 Eurofighter offer to Norway contemplated the integration of the Konsberg NSM, and if there´s a Japanese requirement for it´s next generation fighter to have the ability to carry four ASM-2s, them the Eurofighter Typhoon his more than capable of carrying them.
It´s a question of weapon´s integration nothing more, nothing less. And it would take has much work and money to integrate the ASM-2 on a Typhoon, has it would take for a Super Hornet or Dassault Rafale, the fact that both of these have already anti-ship missiles on their “weapons list” (Harpoon and Exocet) his completely irrelevant.
Cheers
There is a difference between people and civilians people include military personnel as well. I only said a bit more apprehensive. But you have to admit that Russian gear is favourite among non-state actors, terrorists and Regimes with a poor human rights record. This does not mean Russia is selling it to them. Only means the design proliferation is more than European or American weaponry.
That happened because there was a huge stock of Soviet gear for sale at bargain prices right after the end of the cold war.
At that price and with the huge numbers that went to the black market, the gear could be Russian, Chinese, Austrian, Australian, Martian, it would always end in the “worst hands possible”.
Better yet, doesn’t that mean the US can veto Sukhoi’s sales because their aircraft use American IP ? 😀
But all sarcasm aside, replacing Power PC processors in the EF with another processor architecture wouldn’t exactly be a trivial exercise in the event (however unlikely) that the US refuses to sell EADS any. The PPC architecture is very popular and easily acquired on the civilian market. To replace it you’d have to redesign the system that uses PPC processors and probably rewrite a whole slew of software. It would be a lot easier for somebody, EADS or some European corp., to produce a processor that implements the PPC instruction set. To do that legally they’d have to become a licensed second-source manufacturer. Not that this is necessary, the Chinese have “copied” western processor designs without asking permission.
The PPC cores are already used by Sukhoi on Flankers variants. And they are COTS.
Cheers 🙂
Close, but not the whole answer. You can expand bandwidth to the point where you can push the entire Vivid porn server through it in ten seconds and it still isn’t going to solve the problem of lag. The signal needs to go from the UAV to a satellite, possibly to one or more satellites, and then get downlinked to the ground station, and from the ground station to the control room. Once you have the signal, then you need to react to what you’re seeing.
Where you might loose a second or two in all this (receiving, OODA, send), a manned aircraft is going to be on station with someone who’s already “in the loop.”
I do agree… to a point.
There´s already an answer to the problem of lag. You dont have to control your entire “Reaper/J-UCAS/Taranis/Neuron/whatever” force (stationed somewhere in the “Camel arc”) from Nevada!
If your UCAV force his controled by a flying (20000 meters) manned platform stationed a few hundred km´s away through “direct line of sight” instead of “somewhere in Continental US/Europe”, you dont have to send/receive signal´s from a satellite, that will cut the lag by severall orders of magnitude. And if a “direct line of sight” it´s not possible (A´stan, by example, there are a bloody lot of bloody high mountains), add a UAV/URAV fifteen thousand meters above the action and use it has a retransmission node to somewhere a few km´s away, in theory even your FAC could control the “Reaper/J-UCAS/whatever” on a CAS/BAI situation.
Cheers
Again?!
His this suposed to prove me wrong?
Do i have to put here a ferking link for every damned crazy dictator/terrorist group that the USA have funded, trained, armed in the last fifty years?
From Sadam Hussein, to Al QAEDA, to Iran, to every maniac in South America (if they were not commies), etc, etc, etc…
The USA, the biggest arms seller in the world by a wide margin doesn´t have the moral ground to point fingers at any of it´s partners, and that includes France and Germany…
The worst part of this strange moral joke that you are playing his that a good portion of the NBC weapon´s that Sadam Hussein used against it´s own people were paid with American loans.
Here you go:
By contrast, Alcolac International, for example, a Maryland company, transported thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor, to Iraq. Alcolac was successfully prosecuted for its violations of export control law. The firm pleaded guilty in 1989. A full list of American companies and their involvements in Iraq was provided by The LA Weekly in May 2003.[19]
On 25 May 1994, The U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that “pathogenic (meaning ‘disease producing’), toxigenic (meaning ‘poisonous’), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce.” It added: “These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction.”[20]
The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding “It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program.”[21]
A report by Berlin’s die tageszeitung in 2002 reported that Iraq’s 11,000-page report to the UN Security Council listed 150 foreign companies that supported Saddam Hussein’s WMD program. Twenty-four U.S. firms were involved in exporting arms and materials to Baghdad.
And?
That link his suposed to prove me wrong?
Are you stating that the USA didn´t help brutal dictarship´s with money, weapon´s, training, inteligence? INCLUDING Iraq? Right up to 1990?!
Wiki for wiki, here you go…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war
And if it´s a question of “how much help was provided”, i am sure that we can find in the last decades a few blood thirsty rogues armed and suplied by the USA that the Germans and the French were not suporting…
Don’t forget the other buisness deals and debts that prevented French involvment plus Chiracs well known and fully documented admiration of the cruel and brutal leader Saddam.

No one in the entire Western World can “throw stones” about arms deals with brutal dictatorships…
And THAT includes the United States of America.
I knew about the datalink issue, but also that as a joint NATO product with input from several countries, it’s something that the USA has major problems vetoing the export of, for the reasons you give. The GPS issue is a good argument for Galileo, IMO.
The processors I mentioned are COTS. PowerPC, & some other, more specialsed chips. Usual military “we don’t care if it’s old: we want reliability & physical robustness”.
AIM-120 is a potential problem, but not anywhere the USA is competing for sales, or which already has it – and that applies to most, if not all, possible Eurofighter customers. In theory, Eurofighter could integrate Mica to get round it. Shouldn’t be any technical obstacles. And it will go away when Meteor is ready.
Completely agree.
On the other hand, if we pick the entire Galileo program costs and had it to the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter programs has an “upgrade budget”, then suddenly the initial post on this topic gains a bit of consistency… 😀
I would suggest to you that: “If the work on UAVs keeps up to its present pace” then the manned fighter will never be obsolete. All of the development so far will ensure ONLY that UAVs and UCAVs will replace manned platforms for a relatively narrow spectrum of niche roles.
There is still no realistic chance of any UAV having sufficient high resolution all round sensor coverage to be able to give a remote operator anything like the SA available to a human in the cockpit.
And even if it were possible, the implications for bandwidth would be colossal.
Jack
The problem here his bandwith, bandwith and bandwith.
We are very near to a “revolution”, there are several technologies who are maturing at a very fast pace who can transform the manned fighter into a “niche product”, the exact oposite of what it has been until now. From Laser, to robotics, to satelite based detection, etc, etc.
If you tie enough bandwith around the actual recon/inteligence gathering structure (the US one) any fixed targets are dead and a great majority of mobile ones are also asking for a very short notice “friendly” encounter with a JDAM/SDB/EPW/Maverick/whatever.
We might need a human pilot for the CAS/BAI for the really small targets (humans) but in a few years, anything that has an engine and four wheels…
And for CAS/BAI, and/or recon dont discount the “staying power” that unmaned solutions brings to the table. If it´s true that a pilot´s eye (sometimes) his the best sensor that a “strike/recon platform” can have, after two hours of flying a ten ton, mach 0.95 behemoth on a hostile sky, we get a tired man.
But even if we admit that all CAS/BAI needs a pilot on the cockpit (a concept that the Reaper Community his hacking to shreds), and that in the WVR arena the human factor has a definitive advantage (let´s see how the laser technology will be a decade and a half from now), even so, if you have enough bandwith, every strategic/tactical fixed target can be dealt by missile/UCAV, and in the BVR ATA scenario, the UCAV could very well reign supreme two decades from now. That acounts for (roughly) half of your fleet!
And the dam bandwith, were are we going to get enough of it? That´s the 69 million $ question…
But there´s hope, seven years ago I would be sending this message through a 56 Kbps POTS Modem, now I am sending this message through a 100 Mbps optic fiber TA, installed last week. That´s a 1828,6X increase in seven years!
Bloody inbelivable!
Cheers
Nothing except the cost. And if a US veto on sales really was a problem, the money would be spent & US components would be replaced. But it isn’t on offer to countries the USA would veto sales to, so what’s the problem?
Note that despite the hype about US intervention in the Saudi sale, it hasn’t held up delivery. Everybody kept working towards the scheduled delivery date, on the (correct) assumption that the threat of a veto was empty.
A veto on sales to any country the USA sells similar weapons to (e.g. Saudi Arabia) is politically insupportable, because the UK, Germany, Italy & Spain are too important to annoy like that. Only small countries like New Zealand suffer that degree of bullying.
Swerve
Not even the cost…
The Saudi case was based on the MIDS-LVT (Link16) and GPS legal rights.
The amount of American content in the Eurofighter his minimum, and when i say minimum, it´s really, really, really smal, and most of it his COTS.
In theory the RAFALE could be subjected to identical American objections, has it uses the same Link16 terminal.
But the best part his that in the MIDS-LVT there are several European patents… An American sale could get the same treatment.
There´s a very real American leverage on the Typhoon exports, that´s the AIM120, not any part of the Aircraft.
Cheers
So let’s make it informative shall we?
Nice Idea
The latest Rafale deployment to “A`stan” was a bit of a surprise (to me), i was expecting twin seaters equiped with the Scarabée data-link, and the Adla sent “one hollers”. Any news about the integration of “Scarabée” on Rafale?
Cheers
WHOTWAZAT?
He might not elaborate technicaly so prettyly but he is perfectly right.
THIS is where Rafale lead Dassault-Aviation.1) Main architect and Design authority on nEUROn. (Responsible for FCS)
2) Preliminary studies from DGA programme on an Operational version of nEUROn.
3) Feasability studies on technologies for (export) Mirage 2000 and Tornados replacement (EFCAS).
4) First composite part for the nEUROn UCAV as early as June 2007.
5) Further developement of Dassault Composite technology and production sites.
Otherwise said at design and engineering level; unvaluable.
As for the Rafale programme it’s not over, DGA ordered further developement for new capabilties.
LordAssap/Thunder
What i´ve meant with the “Utter Tosh” comment was that this entire topic his nothing more than “provocative trolling”.
Just like the Typhoon topic…
It´s next topic will be something like “His the Gripen a stone age aircraft?”, and finnaly he´s going for the “Why do Europe maintain an aircraft industry, ours his SOOOOOOOO much better…”
It´s not the first time that this “simdude” has maintained this kind of “inteligent debate”…
Since everyone seems to want to try and bring the Rafale into this I thought I would start one about Rafale.
Similarities to the Typhoon are they are both twin engine, primitive airframe design (canard/delta), expensive, over hyped, underdeveloped.
Rafale seems to be a bit more optimized for multi role if it where fully developed. Rafale is at least a platform truly independent of the USA. Rafale has a carrier based version. So will it be a commercial success. No it does not look like it will garner many overseas orders. Is it a national success? Yes, it gives France a reasonably modern and useful system independent of the US or any other power. In that sense alone it makes the platform worthwhile.
Utter Tosh… Again…
Personally I think the UK missed the boat on this one. It is fantastically expensive. It is going to cost a kings ransom to fully develop and it will never be a true multi role aircraft like the F-35 or Super Hornet. I know people go on about what it is “going” to have and how well it performs but in this age of AESA radars, stealth, network centric warfare and 360 degree situational awareness and high off bore sight missiles is it really that much of an advantage to be able to perform marginally better in some regimes than it’s peers? It seems to me that this is just a giant jobs program for the UK and Europe. Hell, it can’t even be exported without Uncle Sam’s approval.
Utter Tosh…