Facts are facts and no amount of crying and complaining will change them. The F-35 has moved more quickly than the Eurocanards did. That is a fact.
No, it didnt, not by a very long shot.
The FGFA is years away. At least a decade or so I’d say, as they get the new engine operational, create the production infrastructure, fix inevitable hardware problems & software bugs, streamline maintenance processes & supply chains, and set up a personnel training pipeline, i.e. everything the F-35 program has been doing over the last five years.
So are the Chinese planes…
Portugal
yes, you forgot that tiny state. At one point or another, they will need to buy something and discard their 16. Obviously the SH or Rafale will be the front runners but long term sustainability and Danes teach us that for a small fleet, it might even be cheaper to buy the LM fighter.
Rafale for the Portuguese Air Force? There would have to be some very strange combination of events for that to happen.
Right now there are two companies that the FAP aproached for informations, LM for the F-16V (upgrade) and Saab for the Gripen.
Chances are that the Viper fleet will soldier on for a very, very, very loooong time, we kept the F-86 Sabre in active service till 1980, the F-16 will follow the same route (there will be Vipers flying with the USAF by the 2030´s, so…)
I wish Indian would just swallow there pride and buy the thing. They cant face next gen Chinese forces with Su-30s.
Thats why there´s this thing called the FGFA.
The Boeing claims are that the SH costs were inflated by 50% to 100% not by ‘up to 50%’. If you have to do that to make your aircraft of choice competitive then something is rotten in the state of Denmark. (apologies to William Shakespeare)
Making your operational choice to look “publicly pretty” is far from being a Dane or JSF thingy.
As for the report being discredited, for example you complain that the Danes used the German Air Force’s figures for Eurofighter sustainment but how can this be wrong? Germany is the second largest operator of the Eurofighter, if I was Denmark I would be more interested in the costings of a current operator has over those provided by Eurofighter.
Because if you pick publicly available ramdom numbers, more precisely the SAR CPFH for DAVE A, the US Navy CPFH for the Super Hornet and the Germans numbers for the Phoon (and i am willing to bet that this was precisely what the Danes did), and compare them, you end up with an entirely flawed comparison, the methodologies to get those numbers are vastly diferent.
Extreme case, i can remember in this same board, a few years ago, some chaps comparing the Harrier/Tornado/Phoon numbers present in the British Hansard with the CPFH of the USAF Raptor and the conclusion was something in the lines of “the F-22 is cheaper to operate than a Harrier”.
Cheers
The Gripen E is an exercise to modify a lightweight fighter design to match medium fighter types such as f-16, Typhoon, rafale and super hornets.
General Dynamics with the YF-16 won the USAF “Lightweight Fighter program”.
The YF-16, at 6.1 Tons weighted half a ton less than a Gripen A, the Block 60´s at roughly ten tons weights the same has a Rafale.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/article_9949ebb7-96a4-5ea4-a64a-0a348c4af419.html
Boeing are moaning and complaining that the Danes know the price of Boeings aircraft better than they do, Sheesh bit of a cheek to criticize such a totally fair and transparent evaluation. its not like they didn’t use the vendors data……:stupid:
But the real clincher is
Of course not.. having pesky facts muddying the clear waters of their impartial decision is the last thing they need.
Cheers
Not exactly “news”, the cost numbers on that report are nothing short of “astonishing”.
Somewhere in the next three years, there will be another Danish report, after the acquisition contract has been signed, with new numbers, with vastly diferent numbers.
Are the Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen NG, Su-35, and Pak Fa all on-time, on-budget, and on-track to being delivered with their full envisioned capability compared to their original procurement plans? Building fighter jets is hard stuff. The F-35 was the victim of a laughably optimistic original sales pitch to congress, but it hasn’t run into any more difficulty in development than any other high performance fighter jet. The real difference compared to any earlier fighter program is how transparent and open to public scrutiny the JSF development process has been.
The JSF certainly has found “more difficulty in development” than a great big chunk of their predecessors, the development and deployment timelines are public, and i would add that programs like the ATF and FEFA/EFA/Eurofighter were equaly publicly scrutinized.
I can remember the EFA chaps threatning to sue Bill Sweetman!
The JSF had all the development pains of their most recent stablemates (namely the cutting edge Raptor and the devilish political Phoon) with the added complexity of the STVOL requirements (Good old Lusty elevators…), i can remember Roy Braybrook circa 1998 stating that whatever came out of it was going to be expensive and late, he was right.
Good thing is that its finaly getting mature.
(sorry for the awful English, not exactly my first language)
I provided the link in the post.
The CPFH is present in that very document on page 91.
DOOOOOHHHHHH
Thanks
A small note, thats not the current CPFH, thats a calculated “through life” forecast in 2012 US$, it might happen, might not.
For CAS, I do understand that the LO characteristics of the SH (weapons pod) and extended loiter time with CFT might play a role.
Or the Danes noticed that external fuel tanks on the phoon are quite tiny and the numbers of ATOG weapons and recon pods integrated on that thing are paltry by comparison with the SH?
The Phoon won on the ATA scenario and lost to the SH in the ATG and recon scenarios, why is anyone surprised?!
The current cost per flight hour is $29.5k. The good thing about the US is we have a direct relationship while the SAR making it very clear the F-16, assessed as similarly as possible, is $25K cost per flight hour.
Ozair where did you get those numbers?
The 2015 CPFH according to the 2016 USAF Budget per flight hour of the F-35A was $42.2K, versus $20.3K for an F-16C.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/f-35a-cost-and-readiness-data-improves-in-2015-as-fl-421499/
http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/budget/
These are the most recent official numbers that i am aware.
And the CPFH is not present on the SAR
http://fas.org/man/eprint/F35-sar-2016.pdf
Cheers
Good Lord well speak for yourself. Western democracy is a total sham. Example, Finnish government one year after elections is conducting an aggressive thatcherite campaign of privatization but before the elections none of the coalition parties had announced that privatization would be there intention. They also want to find reason to subjugate Finland to NATO although most of the governing coalition had rejected that in their election platforms.
Yes, Western Democracy a “total sham”…
I am quite sure that the North Koreans are, oh, so much better than the Fins…
The good news for you is the Danes expected your comment.
The assessment swapped the hours and gave the F-35 a 6000 hour limit and the Eurofighter and SH an 8000 hour limit. Below is the result which involves an increase in F-35 costs but no significant decrease in the other costs as well as the F-35 remaining the lowest cost option.
“Copenhagen’s assessment was conducted without input from the responses to its request for binding information from potential suppliers. Received in July 2014, these contained information on the conventional take-off and landing F-35A, Eurofighter Typhoon and the two-seat Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet, in response to approximately 950 questions.”
The Danish evaluation ignored on purpose the informations suplied by the “supliers”!
Mark my words, in three years time, there will another Danish document in wich the acquisition costs went up between 25% and 50% and the sustainment will go up 100%.
Costs are not constant for 1. Second, Denmark being a JSF nation they are paying dues, as opposed to buying Super Hornet they have to pay FMS fees, and R&D fees. Those can’t be waived by the maker of airplane its US gov required= its the deal structure. 3rd, as super hornet prduction slow, the cost rises because scale economies can’t be used. Boeing has said it is trying to go from 36 per year, to 24 per year without cost jump. But they are not getting 24 per year… Super hornets were around 70 million for the Navy in 2012, the latest deal they were 77 milllion for the exact same thing.
and most obviously, How do you buy a buy a Super hornet in 2022 when they stop making them before 2020?
Sensible