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October 2, 2011 at 2:24 am in reply to: wanted this aircraft but could not get thread #2305945

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PLAAF wanted a two seater side-by-side JH-7 variant, with attack/navigation radar to counter soviets during 70s-80s, didn’t get it.
PLAAF during 80s, wanted F-16s didn’t get it.
PLAAF during 80s, wanted Mirage 2000, even sent pilots to evaluate prototype, too expensive, didn’t get it.

October 2, 2011 at 2:20 am in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2305948

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I’d like to see a counter to those numbers myself, actually, preferably with a source. Clearly those claims (from wiki) are way outdated and we’ve heard clarifications in previous years indicating WS-10A as a good deal more capable than Al-31 but never a solid source.

my point is one shouldn’t care too much about particular numbers.
one should care more about the capability.

October 2, 2011 at 2:16 am in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2305954

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.. which is a Pelikan tail because McDonnell Douglass invented it

I think you were confused.

a former MD engineers proposed during end stage of X-32/X-35 boeing vs lm JSF downselect to go for a pelikan tail. instead of the original X-32 V tail design. (which btw, was 1st place in the JAST downselect pre-MD/Boeing merger).

During JAST MD came last and was out of the game. because they changed their design from a canard to a lambda wing with a V tail….

so don’t get confused.

October 2, 2011 at 12:05 am in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306008

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Ok So i stand corrected on the Thrust part. WS-10B has about 13.200kgf, which is slightly over the AL-31FN.
I suspect this comes from the increased inlet diameter on the WS-10B: 950 millimetres, which is larger than the AL-31FM1 engine.
But show me the TBO ratio?:)
Judging by all reports, this engine is still laging behind that legasy AL-31FN engines.

“According to an interview publicised in January 2007 with J-10 pilot Li Cunbao (李存宝), the J-10 had not yet been equipped with the domestic WS-10 engine, because although the WS-10 could match the performance of its Russian counterpart (the AL-31), there was a serious drawback; the WS-10 took longer to “spool up”, i.e. there was a delay in reaching the same thrust output as the Russian engine.”

On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[7] The Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.

And what about fuel consumption, weight and size?
How the WS-10B compair vs the base line AL-31F, let alone the
AL-31FM:

Design modular:
Maximum thrust, kgf 13500
Minimum specific fuel consumption, kg/kgf*h 0.685
Air consumption, kg/s 118
Inlet diameter, m 0.924
Maximum dimension, mm 1140
Maximum length, m 4.945
Dry weight, kg 1520

still seeing the tree but not the forest?

October 2, 2011 at 12:04 am in reply to: PLAAF Thread 15 #2306010

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I’m not even sure its at the petit duc stage. So was it just a RC model competition with an exciting contemporary twist?

More like petit duc stage was 5 years ago.

that entry has from Shenyang Aeronautics university, and that team was heavily helped with AVIC shenyang institute…

It’s like if Boeing Phantom works is involved with UAV team at Cal-Tech to do a subscaled controls demo or something in that nature.

They will not allow something like this to be shown unless its not consider classified anymore.

October 2, 2011 at 12:00 am in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2306013

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i thoght thats a pelikan tail?

Its the shallow V-tail and Lambda wing.
MD JAST final entry before the down select.

September 30, 2011 at 10:56 pm in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306248

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I do find it a little humorous though that the posters here were adamant how unlikely it was any more engines would be ordered from Russia and suddenly…boom. An order for 123 Al-31s from Russia.

Sadly those has become excuses for not taking the nuanced view.

September 30, 2011 at 10:54 pm in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306250

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You mean like thay did on Super 7 / FC-1?

How much Yuan has PLA thrown into Super 7/FC-1 ?

September 30, 2011 at 7:42 pm in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306334

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Is that right?
So what is the freakin problem with China unable to squeese out an AL-31F deriative engine with similar BTO, Thrust and Fuel consumption:confused:

And why have we seen China over and over order more AL-31FN engines from Russia?
This does not give me the impression, China is in any shape to export their own Flanker engines..

Wolfie has the first part answered.

for the second part. you want the real story?

PLAAF originally wanted to order a line from Russia but AVIC was opposed to it, saying that WS10 will soon mature to a point where the other line is not needed.
The compromise came out to be that PLAAF’s own factory (sorta like militaryl arsenal) will have a repair and overhual line that can do pretty much anything. except modding and making new ones.

as for AL-31FN importing.

whats the last time PLA send AL-31F/FNs back to russia to do overhuals, like certain other big Flanker user? huh? I thought so.

also the ratio for airframes vs engine spares is about 1:3. so the number works out pretty good. WS-10’s production goal was around 100 this year and 120 next year. not enough. Shenyang by itself will use it all up in new builds. which is kinda convient as J-10B will still be teething for 1 year so between Chengdu/SAC they will still need some new AL-31s. not to mention spares for inservice attrition.

think AL-31 as PW F100 in USAF service.
and WS-10 as GE F110. (which is ironic in more ways than one). operational jets in inventory that had F100s will still need F100s as spares, even if USAF decides all new builds would slowly go to F110 single engine source.

anyways not meant to be a Russia vs China whose **** is bigger thread again, but telling you the basics on the ground.

September 30, 2011 at 6:54 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2306358

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F-60? Going overboard with the name.

Wish he was more imaginative and gone with a butterfly tail like this:

Shenyang 601 is not known for their imagination beyond their 93 series designs.

60 = six ten.
16 = ten six.

see the connection?. :diablo:

September 30, 2011 at 6:51 pm in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306361

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although that one doesn’t make sense, wouldn’t India make more sense since their flankers are closer to the MKM?

China has about as full manufacture and support capability on flankers as one can get outside of Sukhoi.
They have a full-production…I mean R&O line on AL-31 forchrisake.

September 30, 2011 at 6:49 pm in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306363

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if China wont buy the L-15 as you suggest, then its even more unlikely Venezuela would be the launch customer. Its no Pakistan!

what I said was
PLA wouldn’t be throw money into something they wouldnot buy themselves.

and PLA hass throw money into L-15 since day 1.

The launch customer is PLAAF.

September 30, 2011 at 6:47 pm in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306366

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any reason for why the T-50 stands a better chance for export than the J-20?
if anything, Russian AF has a higher need for new aircraft to replace obsolete ones. PLAAF despite its numbers of J-7s, has relatively new airframes in comparison. number of new J-10s vs number of new MiG-29s in their respective Air Forces for example..

PLAAF wants a top of the line Airsuperiority fighter right now and will not give up any for export.

September 29, 2011 at 10:55 pm in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306805

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Greetings

I am a long time lurker but first time visitor! I’m studying in Europe but from Venezuela. Not too long ago I met up with another Venezuelan who was also studying in my college and found out that he had a brother who is an officer in the FAV. As I am a big aviation fan, we started talking about many things like the Sukhoi 30, Mil-24, and other aircrafts. I also learn some things too about what the officers are interested in for the future of FAV. For example many rumors is saying that FAV will acquire Sukhoi 35 but it seem that this is not true and FAV actually want to get more Sukhoi 30s because it would be easier for the supply maintainance. Also it is rumor that the 35 program is not going so well and he thinks that Russia may not buy much of it if at all!! But biggest news was what many officers thought would be important for future acquisitions. While FAV do not want the Sukhoi 35 and prefer more 30s, in the long term FAV is interested in reducing the fighter aircraft to two type.. Sukhoi 30 and a new one, this will remove F-16 and the F-5. The officers narrow it down to the new Russian T-50 and Chinese J-20!! the reason for these two is because many political changes in our country resulted in the big change of suppliers and international preference, so it is difficult to continue buying American and Europe may be kind of hard but do not have anything that much better than Sukhoi 30. Also FAV operates some Chinese aircraft now too and our link with China is much bigger than before. In addition FAV is considering a LIFT aircraft that can also function as light attack aircraft and replace some roles of our F-5 and suppelment the K-8 that is a basic trainer. FAV narrow it down to Yak-130 and L-15 from China. So I ask what the forum people think, actually my knowledge of mjilitary aircraft is still really basic but it would be really interesting to know which aircraft fit FAV better for the next fighter and next leading fighter trainer and light attack. I will tell my freind to tell his brother. He will probably laugh but may find it interesting the result from this forum!

Venezuela will not get their hands on J-20s for the foreseenable future so that’s settled.

better chance at T-50.

As to L-15 they might be able to do a deal like Egyptians with their K-8 production line. that would jump start Venezuela’s aerospace industry.

September 29, 2011 at 10:52 pm in reply to: Venezuela acquisition: T-50/J-20, Yak-130/L15? #2306810

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Again … simply because the JL-9 was ready for delivery much earlier because of powerplant related problems … and besides that if China has anything close to the AL-55 is aganin not the question as long as the engines for the L-15 will be delivered and the customer is satisfied.

I’m sure, if the tests will be successfully completed, the PLAAF will buy the L-15.

Deino

JL-9 is bought because 1) its a low drain on logistics, already infrastructure there to support J-7. and 2) they need something right now to train up their 3rd Gen pilots with out burning up costly fighter engine and structure hours.
and 3) L-15 is ran into problems; because its under a super optimist schedule to begin with.

PLAAF is not going to throw money into something (L-15) they are not going to buy.
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