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July 24, 2011 at 4:54 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374120

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I thought I had already told

It is better to know a fighter can be renovated as a good bomber, but a bomber will have no way to return becoming a proper fighter.

influenced from MD? According my memory, that concept for comepting JSF from MD was a V tail.

be direct.

also your english is bit hard to understand emile. 😉

MD had a canard in JAST but right before the down select went to a lambda main wing with a slightly canted vt. in YF23 style.

needless to say alot of turbulent churns in that team.

after they lost the jast downselect they merged with boeing. boeing had a V tail also but much more matured.

July 24, 2011 at 4:49 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374129

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You’re right. What threw me was the whole Pelikan (correct spelling) Tail vs “Four Post” tail. Since the X-32 was a delta I was figuring it had to be the X-35. I re-watched the video and double checked the transcripts to find it. They were speaking of the final F-32 design, not the X-32 delta.

Boeing is already lost when the management decided to have a redesign of tail.
actually boeing is lost when they merge with MD and decided that MD guy will be in charge of Boeing defense.

July 23, 2011 at 11:11 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374255

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Here is a 3-way of the final Boeing design. They had to dump the delta because of performance issues related to updated specs. It was not MD’s fault.

Btw, the 1st down-select was a paper one. Once planes started to fly, the truth came out (Boeing’s gas ingestion issues and it’s looks did not help either).

entirely out of topic for the thread but..

Boeing was out in front after the 1st down select. MD was lost. MD’s team had to heavily redesign only months out from downselect.
from beginning lower cost manufacturing and growth potential, not pure performamce was suppose to be a big part of the score. boeing’s was fairly ahead after the down select and their airplane was supposily “high risk” but Program office knew that and what boeing advertised it produced in actual fly off example. much advertised gas ingestion issue is not really a big deal killer…. especially compare to what F-35B is going through now. the fly off competition was suppose to be all about “potential”, not what can we achieve now. but in the end the fighter jocks won and it become a stick and throttle show.

Navy’s fighter jocks wants a airplane that has better turn. It all came down to either pay load or turn. I don;t think X-35 has nearly the payload and range potential of X-32.

The final design with the 4 tail was a travesty and had heavy influence from MD team. they should have just stuck with their guns and went with the original design.

the deal after the merger was that top defense guy was MD and commercial was boeing. not a good thing for boeing to integrate two teams.

July 23, 2011 at 10:58 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374259

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If you look at what Boeing was proposing (the standard wing, not the X-32 delta), it still had the tilting bomb bay and lack of center hardpoint.

Sorry, was referring the original X-32, not the *******ed up one after MD folks join the fray.

you know that after 1st down select Boeing was out in front eh?

July 23, 2011 at 10:57 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374263

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Sorry I don’t exactly understand how that relates to my post? Are you disagreeing with the point I made or what (“read my lips”?) :confused:

sorry,

just to re-iterate my view that variations out on the web has little to do with reality.

July 23, 2011 at 10:55 pm in reply to: Compare/Contrast: JAS-39 and JF-17 #2374267

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Thanks Robban!

Nice images of the MiG-33 Quantam-fx. I think that the look however is the most generic jet fighter aircraft look. Between, what is this? PS: My first impression: a JF-17 and a J-20 having a baby.

or just a J-7 with a Tarp!

July 23, 2011 at 10:46 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374273

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You might want to check you planes again. The X-32 had a smaller, tilting bomb bay, & no center hardpoint. I have never seen it’s loadout, so I am not sure of it’s wing-hardpoint specs.

that airplane was never a bomb truck in its JSF competition configuration.
the growth potential of that wing is what made me say what I said.
the untrimmed cruise L/D of that wing is in the teens, after trim it still in the high 9s.

July 23, 2011 at 10:43 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374276

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Not wholly — remember drawings of J-XX were fairly consistent (delta canard configuration) and that would’ve been filtered through leaks over the years.

read my lips…

601 is not that imaginative, this is a rehash of their mid 90s series of design.
the failed Tri-Plane entry for J-20 was a outgrowth of those design.

what we will see, hopefully in next couple of month, is still the incarnation of that mid-90s design series.

…

airplane project like these are not only about outer shapes etc. systems, structures, layout, manufacturing design etc etc the design organization after they mature a design on paper , which represent some instants a dozen year of work, never tend to really go too far away from what’s familiar. design inertia if one call that.

July 23, 2011 at 10:41 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374282

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[IMG]
It is more likely that Snow Owl would based on some layout out of PAKFA with modification due to Chinese understanding for modern fighter.

Did you post that post somewhere else and cut and paste the image ?

ha.

July 23, 2011 at 10:40 pm in reply to: J-16 Snow Owl —— Chinese alternative proporsal for NGF #2374285

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The wind tunnel testing seem to test almost every modern aircraft type, but they never seem to give any love to the X-32. You would think the wing design would be at least of some interest to those with stealth aircraft projects.

I love X-32 also,
a concept that fits more closely to the final eventual mission than X-35 ever hope to be… a true bomb truck.
the fighter jocks that permeates the program offices wants an affordable sexy convertable that can still hull kids. X-32 gave them a minivan. they hated it.
so they went with the convertable. oh well…..

July 14, 2011 at 8:06 pm in reply to: J-20 Black Eagle – Part 5 #2376395

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maybe Emile’s point is similar to the reason why Sukhoi decided not to follow the fueselage style of F-22/J-20 for their T-50. I think Over G was saying something to that effect too.

you are overestimating SAC’s ability.;)

July 14, 2011 at 8:01 pm in reply to: J-20 Black Eagle – Part 5 #2376405

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It is highly impossible to modify the S.O. to be Raptor alike from Triplane.

Why not!

they did modified their 93 design into that ugly triplane for the J-20 competition.

they can morph it back and give it a nicer name, wola! con more chinese tax payer’s money with their endless paper designs . 😀

….

I was wondering,

If it was the SAC’s design that got chosen instead of CAC’s and given the go ahead by the airforce program office back in 05.

would the big boss at AVIC support CAC’s losing bid by support a “private venture” design?

yeah, I thought so.

July 14, 2011 at 7:16 pm in reply to: Pakistan Air Force Thread 4. #2376416

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Israel is a technology powerhouse, and has products the world wants, and if push comes to shove, can still survive without an external supplier. Is Pak in the same position?

.

when push comes shove can Israel’s F-16 make do with out spares from americans?

July 14, 2011 at 7:15 pm in reply to: Pakistan Air Force Thread 4. #2376419

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Why have policy which doesn’t work? Didn’t work with the Russians, didn’t work with the Americans. No gurantee it will work with the French especially, for example, if Pakistani show interest in big ticket items such as submarines. That will not happens because despite political push due to oppurtunity for kickbacks, French subs were very low on Pakistani list after Chinese and German boats. I recall reading are story where some big exec from DCN said that Pakistani order was critical to the shipyard’s survival and this after the Scropene order

yep.

and similarly france didn;t stop supplying both side of TW strait.

so what makes one think the french would be hesitant to supply both powers in the subcontinent?

July 13, 2011 at 3:26 am in reply to: Pakistan Air Force Thread 4. #2376789

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French have much bigger deals to do with India. The new submarine tender to which DCNS appears to be a favourite is worth more than the MRCA deal and they are also trying to push for the Mistral. France has repeatedly said they won’t be selling stuff on recent statements made in India. So I think PAF may have to look elsewhere.

French are notorious/famous for not allow their options to be limited 😉

case in point,

the la fayatte deal with Taiwan.

if you can figure out all the connections and characters in that deal, all the unbelievable undertable dealings between the French, ML China and TW, then kudos to you. you belong to the inner circles of world arms dealers.

They always will do a deal, the prob is what do you have in offer 😉
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