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dienekes

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Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 44 total)
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  • in reply to: Gowind 200/170/120 #2062629
    dienekes
    Participant
    in reply to: Your Favorite Warship? #2062633
    dienekes
    Participant

    whta makes the Netherland’s 7 Provincien so popular? just curious

    I believe it is because she is a beauty and and a highly efficient warship to boot.

    in reply to: Indian Navy – News and Discussion #2062718
    dienekes
    Participant

    Hellenic Navy maybe? šŸ˜€

    Correct šŸ™‚

    dienekes
    Participant

    @plawolf

    First of all, it really enjoying discussing and arguing with you!

    We are not in any real dissagreement I think, as far as general concepts are concerned.

    I think the key word (already mentioned) is “sea denial”. That is, I think, the main task for a FAC(M), with secondary patrol duties. All this related to the littoral environment, of course.

    Today, most newly build FACs are about 60-65 meters in length and 500-600 tons in displacement. I guess we shall slowly gravitate towards a 70m ship, with good PDMS capabilities and features like UAVs and such.

    Personally, should I have buying decision over this, I’d like an “ideal” version of the K130 corvette: a Bofors 57mm mk3, 4 RBS-15, 8 Polyphem, 2 RAMs, 2 Typhoon NTD turrets, 2 UAVs and waterjet propulsion! :p

    in reply to: what IS a corvette? #2062722
    dienekes
    Participant

    I always think that corvettes are downsized frigates and is often used as cheap substitutes for larger combatants, am I correct?

    Well, yes and no IMO.

    A 2000 ton corvette is not that much cheaper than a 3500 ton frigate, with similar equipment.

    The think is, that costs are not just the buying price of a ship. Crew costs are quite high and it is certainly more economical to have a crew of 80 than a crew of 200 (highly trained professionals, I hasten to add…).

    So, if all you need is a seaworthy vessel with SSM, PDMS, CIWS, a medium gun, a sonar and basic helicopter capabilities, then a 1500ton corvette is very appropriate. And, yes, some nations will call such a vessel a “frigate”, just for internal consumption. :p

    in reply to: Indian Navy – News and Discussion #2062801
    dienekes
    Participant

    Perry doesn’t even have the simplest ARPA installed for plotting ships on the radar… Wouldn’t even want it when they’d give it to me…

    The HN had exactly the same feelings my friend… luckily, the USN found a more willing buyer in the area. šŸ˜€

    dienekes
    Participant

    Regarding the ‘rush’ to corvettes as opposed to FAC’s – many small navies are interested in prestige and a corvette is a better ‘symbol’ than an FAC. Also with changes in designs and weapon system technologies many of the resources once limited to larger DD’s and frigates are available on a corvette platform.

    Regarding the “face” issue.

    Another serious consideration is that of local shuipbuilding. Most developing countries are able to build a small/medium missile boat and call it “a triumph of [insert country name here] shipbuilding”. Not many countries can have shipyards capable of building frigates. šŸ˜Ž

    Also, what about this fashion of calling 500ton boats “corvettes”? OTOH, South African MEKO are called “corvettes” also… duh! :p

    in reply to: Indian Navy – News and Discussion #2062837
    dienekes
    Participant

    Why would IN get used Perry’s when they can build perfectly good new ships themselves?

    Agree. Un-modernized Perries are a joke by today’s standards. Especially when you are not concentrating on “long range SAM capability” (haha) and look at the overall ship design.

    dienekes
    Participant

    Another point worth considering: In contrast with 500ton ā€œsemi-corvettesā€, perhaps a case could be made for smaller displacement craft, specially adapted for littoral warfare.

    An example is the BR45 design by CMN. This is based on the smaller Kuweitian boats and sports a stealthy design. It is armed (I assume from the info I have) with a Raptor combination gun/SSM turret, a combination SAM/Decoy turret, 4 Sea Skua and… a UAV for OTH data gathering! What I like about this design is that it is the epitome of ā€œattack craftā€ for the littoral/coastal environment. It doesn’t pretend to be something it’s not.

    dienekes
    Participant

    Why would submarines bother to attack FACs (unless they were posing a threat to friendly vessels)? The FACs can’t hurt the subs, so the subs would just ignore them.

    Tony, an exception to this are the Swedish Stockholm class boats (and perhaps some others), equipped with variable depth (?) sonar and ASW weapons. But this is out of necessity, since the SN still doesn’t have any proper corvettes/frigates.

    Also, I think only the Skjold can be characterized as a ā€œstealthā€ FAC. The Visby is properly a corvette, should it be made of steel/alu, it would be 1000 tons.

    dienekes
    Participant

    @plawolf

    Several good points there. I especially agree on the defensive role of FACs (which is ironic, since they are ā€œattackā€ boats after all!)

    But I have some remarks:

    If FACs are such cool prospects, then why every navy in the world move on to larger designs (500+ ton vessels). The manufacturers even call them corvettes!

    The answer is simple: even in the calmest littoral waters, the seakeeping of a 90m vessel shall always be superior than that of a 60m one! With all the consequences on effective weapon use…

    Also it is certain that a modern anti-ship missile shall completely obliterate a fast attack craft. There have been numerous test firings against obsolete vessels, of about this size. No ship can outmaneuvere even a slow moving, subsonic ASM. Not to mention using it’s defensive weapons in such conditions.

    Helicopters are the No. 1 enemy of the FAC and in most conditions even complete air superiority is not enough to prevent them from accomplishing their mission. My views are of course biased towards the Aegean environment. Let me tell you this: 10 years ago, a well armed FAC was a most valuable asset at the Aegean. Tactics and continuous training were a guaranty for it’s lethality. Today things have come around. The introduction of modern naval helicopters, with IR and laser guided missiles have made things very difficult for the FAC. In the Aegean, only the 5 Roussen class Super Vitas of the HN may have a real chance of survival. All others shall be for target practice.

    dienekes
    Participant

    @stormeagle

    This is why I mentioned the Aegean as a favorable battle theatre for FACs.

    But you see, even the HN chose to ecquip the Super Vitas with RAM, recognising the danger from enemy chopers. How do you think a Tufan or a Kilic (not to mention a Dogan) will fare against a popup Hellfire attack from an Aegean Hawk? Try to shoot the missiles down with Fast Forties? But even the Vitas are marginally able to present a threat to the helicopter, in contrast with a possible corvette with, say, ESSM or Aster 15.

    Also, I don’t think 62 vs 75 meters is such a big difference. A corvette can hide between the vrahonisides just fine! šŸ˜‰

    dienekes
    Participant

    A helo is probably the most useful piece of kit a modern warship can carry, so a helo-capable corvette has got to be far more valuable, in the vast majority of circumstances, than a pair of FPBs with similar armament.

    Tony you touch on an interesting subject here.

    There is no “similar armament”, between FAC and corvettes, for the most part. Would you fit a Phallanx on a FAC? Some navies did (or Goalkeeper, doesn’t matter). Do you think it can adequately protect the ship from a missile attack on heavy seas? Even if the CIWS destroy the missile at 500m range, the kinetic energy of the fragments could do real damage to a small ship.

    I think the only viable defence for such ships is a “fire and forget” missile (i.e. RAM and Mica Navale). Guns with programmable munition (Bofors 57mm wit 3P and Millenium with AHEAD come to mind) may be of use also.

    dienekes
    Participant

    To follow up the interesting analogy (ships and cars) I’d say a modern FAC is like an MX-5 roadster and a corvette like a Focus RS. The Focus costs a bit more (not to mention that it is a collectible now!) but the difference in capabilities is enormous.

    The MX-5 could be more fun, sometimes, though. OTOH a FAC is hardly fun (have you been in one in sea state 5? No? I don’t recomment it…).

    in reply to: Your Favorite Warship? #2063146
    dienekes
    Participant

    Two votes for the Dutch ship! :p

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 44 total)