But in the Australian context, ie RAAF use, who’s SAM batteries are going to be in place within striking distance of Australian airspace – the only scenario when the RAAF could be expected to operate alone and not as part of a coalition with the USA? And how are they going to counter a JORN station 1000km away?

Carlo kopp is always tarnished unfairly in my opinion as F 22 biased. Wanting the best value is what Kopp is striving for. If you know Australian procurement history, the F 111 was a tremendous success in that though expensive it was so capable that it stayed ihn service longer than any cheaper alternative. Kopp sees an F 22 buy as yielding long term effectiveness. Look at the F/A 18 EFs for instance. Buying 1 jet the F /A 18 just to supplement it with superhornets is more expensive than one long term acquisition. As for JSF, Kopp sees a plane that initially rivals the F 22’s cost without its capabilities especially in regards to wide-band stealth. Lets remember the Russians already have accurate VHF radars BEFORE the F 35 even enters service. Over the F 35s life can we assume these will not get much much better? Hence Kopps and for that matter, my own criticism of JSF.

Carlo Kopp’s stated agenda is to foster debate – mission accomplished. Does he always present the full context for his views – no.

One of the criticisms of the pro F-111 lobby here in Aus is that they were viewed, in part at least, as the mouth piece of the large and costly F-111 support industry that has grown up to support that ageing platform, and who’s revenues will evaporate with the F-18F’s arrival. The F-22 is another support intensive aircraft that could require the same level of expenditure as the F-111.

Are Carlos Kopp’s statements factually wrong – probably not materially given what he knows of the F-35. But are they placed in a wider context of how the F-35 is intended to be used by its users, and made with full knowledge of the aircraft – No. And with regard to the F-35, have the USAF, USN, US Marine Corps, RAF, RAAF, RNeAF, RNoAF, etc, etc, etc all got it wrong, and been skillfuly conned for years by the evil LockMart – No.

AIR6000 WAS TAKING PLACE…. it was canned and the F-35 selected.
THIS IS NOT HOW TO SELECT AN AIRCRAFT.
You cant call for companies to show their products and then cancell it half way through the process and announce “we went with someone who didnt even enter the contest” !
You have NO CLUE on how the process is supposed to happen.

ALL GOVERNMENT DEPTs MUST put up a tender process for ANY ITEM/ PROJECT etc ….
NO BID CONTRACTS SUCH AS THOSE IN THE USA ARE ILLEGAL HERE IN AUSTRALIA.

Its pretty common for even the simplest Aust govt RFT process to incorporate an agency’s right to terminate the process at any time as it sees fit prior to the signing of contracts.

The Commonwealth’s Procurement Guidelines provide a range of scenarios where direct sourcing is allowed. Should cabinet decide to allow direct sourcing in a more expansive manner for a specific procurement, that is their right as the duly elected government.

People here talk about AIR 6000 as if it was the only defence procurement process not to have proceeded as originally envisaged, which is just not correct.

Join the real world please.

WHO CARES IF THE F-35 WAS A PART OF AIR 6000 PRE-2002? IT HAS BEEN POST-2002.

+1.

Well, isn’t the center barrel of the Hornets being replaced as we speak………

I agree with what you said. The cbr is only going ahead on 15 or so early build airframes.

I agree…………..Yet, could the RAAF made do with the upgraded Hornets until the arrival of the F-35?

I’m sure the Australian taxpayer wouldn’t mind spending $10-15 billion for an incremental upgrade to aspects of the RAAF’s air combat capability, rather than holding off a few years and spending that money to update to a 5th generation aircraft.

Yeah, a rather bizaar line of thinking considering the Typhoon and Rafale have not only entered service but are actually ramping up to their second generation versions respectively whilst the F-35 is barely into its development program.

Bizaar why? What significant capability upgrade does the EF offer over the RAAF’s updated AGP-73 + AMRAAM equipped F-18s? What additional capability does it offer over those Harpoon equipped F-18s for maritime strike for example?

If you stand back a little from that statement it sounds like Government saved the RAAF from an essentially superfluous contest, that if concluded could have locked Australia into operating a 1990’s technology fighter for the next 25 years.

Once the JSF as clearly defined, why would Aus want to buy a fleet of semi-mature EFs of Rafaels that one day might provide the all round capability that the RAAF needs and the F-35 provides?
3rd January 2009 03:17

Is not ANYONE CAPABLE OF seeing what is being said????
Lets SPELL IT OUT….

The F-35 WAS NOT OFFERED TO THE RAAF….
The F-35 was not on the Air6000 shortlist…..
There was only ONE prototype in the air at the time…
(semi mature rafale??? and the F-35 is MATURE??? )
The F-35 is going to replace the F-111, a role IT IS NOT SUITED FOR…
The government should NOT be making choices for what it thinks the RAAF needs!
Governments are there to govern…. not RULE
The government of the day then decided without consultation that 24 Super Hornets will be needed as a “stop gap” because the F-111s will be retired well before we receive the F-35. What wonderful forward planning?

Again the continual flag waving for the F-35 on this thread and in this forum is beyond a joke…. a debate on here simply goes round and round as those so much in love with the aircraft keep on and on about its wonderful attributes. Do you guys get paid by the thread?

There fact remains the government of the day lied and went behind the backs of everyone…. but this doesnt matter a damn to some does it?

But F-35 was subsequently offered to the RAAF. So it wasn’t on the Air 6000 shortlist – does that just meant that air 6000 was launched prematurely?

So EF or Rafael would have been an effective F-111 replacement??????? What does either offer in a strike role that Block II F-18F doesn’t? Non-AESA MSA radar perhaps? 😀