SignApparently the only thing that was known was it’s cost per flight hour :rolleyes:
Nic
no not really :confused:
have you read anything above?
Does Eagle1 or Nicolas have any meaningfull or new gripen info, or is it just rafale lobbying. if not you really dont need to comment any futher.
SignAlthough the gripen may offer a better value for money for many situations as compared to bigger aircrafts it sizes prevents it to achieve effectively more “strategic” missions when range&payload is an important factor.
So it all boils down to how a given country value its “strategic reach”.
Gripen customers usually does not face important threats as the neighboring countries are either friendly or/and relatively poorly equipped. In this situation the gripen choice makes sense. Switzerland or Brazil could well do with the gripen but India or the UAE are obviously looking for more punch.
And even in switzerland the airforce was more keen getting the max performance as their evaluation showed. The politicians said they could do with the gripen NG as its performance was enough although still not as good as the rafale and typhoon.
To conclude the gripen has found a nice “specific” place on the market of fighter jets. Arguably not the best performer but well enough for many airforces that does not pretend to prevail in a region but rather have a”credible” force.
Do you have any idea of any specific performance of any of the fighters your talking about? Gripen IN was an offer, not very known to anybody exept india and saab.
Gripen E/F isnt specifide, and therefore its preformance is not known.
SignThen why does the flygväppnet want and improved Gripen?
BTW I think the Gripen won mostly on politics in Swizerland.
Nic
Doesnt France want a new Rafale after 2027? or will it be repairing F1-F3 like India is doing with its fishbeds? :O
SignSo during all those years you have been comparing the CPH of Gripen served by conscripts to the CPH of other fighters served by professionals? How fair!
Yes I do. I’m not saying the SWAF is lying far from it, but I’m suspecting that the cost per flight hour mentionned by Saab isn’t the same as the cost per flight hour mentionned by some other manufacturers. The conscripts vs professional is a good example of how you can tilt numbers.
So this leaves with a few possible explainations:
1 Strong Euro means expensive flight cost per hour for European fighters 😀
2 The gripen was far from comparable with eurofighter or rafale, because it doesn’t have the same systems complexity… (hinted in the Swiss AF evaluation)
3 The swedes know some things that no other aircraft manufacturer knows, since Dassault for instance built the Rafale around the concept of simplified maintenance.
4 all of the above.
Now all this talk about the evolutions of the Gripen for the Flygväppnet point to number 2: they need to make the Gripen bigger, to be able to compete with aircrafts like the Rafale or the Typhoon.
The question is, what kind of engine would they have available for this? F414 would be too small to provide enough thrust if the plane gains more weight, AND to provide the kind of power available for AESA+AESA based ECM+IRST and so on. Could RR provide the F136? Or would the US provide the F135 considereing that an improved gripen would be in direct competition with the F35 that they desperately need to sell?
Nic
Nic, please read the posts of costs or leave it. Professionals are payed in sweden also, otherwise the union will complain.
Nic, simplicity always wins over complexity
F414 seems to be the platform thats stands against tuned variant.
The systems itself is very unknown and so is weight of them, but one thing is for sure electronics weights less and less for each year, so i dont see this as a problem.
F135/F136 are you kidding me?! well, you are really not that funny…
not even a frenchman could try to fit that monster in a slender eurocanard. Maybe that is a future possibility for rafales lack of power? fit 2 F135 in a rafale? good luck!
SignI have always believed that the 3000$ per hour was a wet dream indeed, and I have said so in this very forum a couple times.
There is no objective reason for the Gripen to cost less than 1/3 the cost of the flight hour of a Rafale. Period.
If you’re going to tell me that it’s the case, you must tell me why it’s so cheap compared to every other fighter out there.
I’d say ~7000$ per hour vs ~10000$ could account for one more engine and a bigger airframe. But adding one engine doesn’t triple the cost, sorry.
Nic
This is a too much simplistic comparison with no basis of data what so ever. sorry. i rather lean on public documents than on you´re 8 rows of biased logic, period
SignAre you saying that the cost per flight hours was computed without manhours cost because Sweden use conscription???
L O L
Nic
No, what did you get that from? im saying manhourprice in 1:st level maint/refueling/loading for SwAF is probably going up from now and into the future.
Please be more accourate reading my posts, you tend to lean in one direction with no basis, exept your own experience with Rafale. These are different types off systems. Gripens is obviosly more carefee and need less complicated maintnance by personal with lower education degree. So dont go that road.
The prices have varied from SwaAF 2500USD in the early 90:s to todays offers TO OTHER COUNTRIES of >4000USD. Thats it! ARE YOU STILL QUESTION THE VALIDITY OF THESE DATA FOR A/B/C/D GRIPENS AFTER 20 YEARS OF SWAF EXPERIENCE?
The future seems to be more expensive, according to a politician. But noone know how he came up with these numbers, so we have to wait an see wont we?
SignThe LCA radar is 650mm wide. It is larger than the Mig-29 (Zhuk-ME 624mm) and Gripen (PS-05 600mm) radars.
Range was intended to be 120 km vs a 2 sq.m target.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_533.shtml
http://www.acig.org/exclusives/aero/acig_aero05_lca.htm
which is the biggest modern AESA to fit (probably)?
SignBesides something is fishy here: The cost per hour decreases over time because of better practises and better spare part availability and more knowledge about the plane’s maintenance.
Rafale cost per flight hour was very high at first, and then consistently decreased as more Rafales went into service and forces got accustomed to it.
Nic
One thing for sure is that in the future the cost of 1:st level maintnence and refueling etc. will go up in the future in sweden, due to constription was abandoned in 2010 (Sweden). So at the moment the last constripts are still doing there duty but is phased out in steps. Also the 2500USD is a SwAF figure, the 4000 USD figure is from offers (and stated sometimes >4000).
Nic- i would say the price normally develops as you say(logaritmic decay), but at some point it rises with the price of resources. In a “digital” fighter this isnt a bagger, due to electronics lifecycle is much much faster than the fighter lifecycle itself, and fuelprices moves fast upwards.
http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2008/05/oil-price-chart/
The 2500 figure is probably not the first year of operation :), but at a stablized level.
SignIs that taking into account the salaries of the persons involved in maintaing it or are they still conscripts?
A more than doubling of the CPFH seems be put it past just fuel price increases which are anyway never stable. This may be nearer the actual figure now, the $3000 per flight hour seemed too low to begin with.
THe figure have gone from 2500USD in the early 90:s to 4000 in the latest sources, not doubling but alot higher.
SignOr maybe the 3000$ cost per hour was never realistic?
Nic
you know like me that earliest sources say 2500 USD, in the last offers its been about 4000 USD, its all over the net. Now, one politican makes a funny comment with no conditions mentioned about about future gripen, and now this is trough for all generations of gripens?
I know this would be your wet dream Nic, but please can you also be realistic?
SignCalling something the “best” or “most successfull” all lies in the definitions.
Likewise, the Concorde was a fast and a technological wonder.
Was it “the best” airliner ever made?
No, it never turned a legitimate profit, and that’s the criteria for success for an airliner.
when where in the zone of cost, whats the costs of a modern flanker?
The cost per flighthour must be high these days, when the oil prices are running high.
SignWow, CPFH is now up at $7000 !
assuming 200 h per a/c and year that is 1.4 million dollar pissed away per a/c !!http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?84527-Gripen-News-Thread/page219
Did USD go down lately or fuel up ??
First, this is extrapolated prices of C1, C2, CX.
Second.
But still knowone knows really what figures his talking about..
SignThis would be beautiful, but i am expecting something much more conventional and very similar to the Demo airframe.
Time will tell.
Time doesnt tell if, B och C1 variant is choosen (C1 should be conventional, about DEMO frame).
If the debate in sweden doesnt have a total meltdown, due to Schweiz wants C2, CX is probably the only viable for a good cooperation. For a direct C2 step, a third partner probably is the only way to get there.
C2 and CX have more changes to the airframe than C1.
SignX2
And i would love to have a detailed description of the CX…
As talks are made here in sweden one expenive alternative is a stealthier airframe, maybe something like FS2020 frame features on a Gripen DEMO frame, probably stealthy with pods?
Though CX instaed of C2 indicate more proven avionics and reuse of many systems already onboard gripen Demo/C/D. And in the future develop the platform as technology mature in many small upgrades.
This strategy is used on the gripen today and seems very economic. Not much detail, but about what i snapt up in media as to date
The debate also says that schweiz wants C2 alternative, but can have take a C/D version as intermediate solution.
SignI think the reason the airforce is surprised is more of the lines that alternative B would be upgrading existing airframes, while C1 would include new airframes.
I’m interested to find out how much the C1 airframes differ from the current C/D one though.
It´s probably a NG “export” gripen with a bigger radar.
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