fantumfan2003WEll believe me , One sight I wouldnt forget is when the Mig-29M2 was approaching to land the long black smoke was clearly visible , Perhaps you can check that out with others guys present at that time , If they all agree with you , I will seriously get my eye check done 😉
Blackcat as far as the Mirage deal goes immediately after the Kargil war the then ACM AY Tipnis had asked the government to go in for about 150 Mirages , But the government in its opinion preferred to go for a competation instead of single vendor buy , they was even stated by the present ACM.
Without going into the merits or demirits of the Mirage vs 29M2 , I would say we are still the largest ( 2nd largest ) buyers from russia in terms of arms some bought some in pipeline to mention a few Groshkov, 29K , Su ,Smerch , Subs etc .
As a matter of policy we decided to go in for diversification from France and Britain we purchsed few product , If we are totally dependent or over dependent on Russia , They will extract heavy price in terms of costly spares and after sales support.
Also we have long term commitements with Russia in terms of joint development of 5th gen fighter and only god knows what other Black project we are working with Russia .
Mirages are a fine aircraft and the IAF is quite impressed with it for merits known to every one , and going ahead and buy more of 125 of this birds will agur well for the IAF.
Also I am sure the navy will go for more Mig-29 K in the future they are planning to have around 60 of these birds.
Yes Austin is right..the MiG-29M2 Engines were smoking very badly…In fact it was one of two smoking at the airshow…The Jaguars I think was smoking too…but that was negligible.
fantumfan2003I still remember my educational trip to Airforce station at Chandigarh which I had about 8-9 years back… We were being given briefings about various transport aircrafts/helicopters stationed at the Airforce base… but one particular comment by an airforce officer which I still remember vividly was
that the IL-76 in general has ability to carry & fire missiles! I just wanted to ask all the informed members thatAlso Apart from the above queries…
India had used An-12’s for carpet bombing in the previous wars. Now since An-12’s are long gone…Now which transport plane has taken this role ie is it
An-32 or the IL-76?Plz do answer !!
Regards
Lava
At the recent Static Display in Bombay, a Airforce chap told me An-32 have a bombing role in the IAF…
Its very likely that the IL-76 can be used as an A2G missile platform…its well suited for carrying heavy larger missiles like Kh-31A, Brahmos etc…It could also carry R-73/M550 for self defence if required….Just like Nimrods carried Sidewinders during Flaklands War of 1982
fantumfan2003Give him a little credit, alright? He’s not mentally retarded. What he meant was that one side hopes for a situation where they are presented oppurtunities to score.
The gap between a Mirage-2000 and F-16 in purely close-in combat is’nt as large as the gap between either and the MiG-29 or Su-30. In theoretical ITR, higher speeds and altitudes, the Mirage has the advantage. It’s delta calls for very low wingloading (higher lift) but the planform will suffer drag and energy bleed at very low speeds and the relatively low TWR, cannot compensate for energy loss totally. For comparison of some figures within common configs, look here http://www.mirage-jet.com/COMPAR_1/compar_1.htm
The Mirage-2000-5 Mk.II has the following performance in two regimes
Air combat – +9/-3.5 G, 29° AoA limit, 270°/sec roll rate
Heavily loaded – Attack – +6G, 20° AoA limit, 150°/sec roll rate
Absolute ‘never exceed’ limit – +11G, 31° AoAPerhaps someone else has similar figures for the F-16.
Of course he is not mentally retarded and I did not say so..but read again and its suggesting that PAF pilots are better at 1 v1 engagements…..Thanks for the answer…The scenario I suggested …and its a scenario mind you…can come about where say the Mirage was egressing enemy territory after a strike mission and was bounced by the PAF F-16A (which has heaters and no SARH AAMs)
Thanks for the info again…..
fantumfan2003Nothing to add.
PErhaps the AF with the best information can gert theirs aircraft in the best position but it’s pretty close.
I tend to agree with the first part of your statement…The Scenario I have in mind is pure close visual range air combat using heaters and guns…
agreed that the Mirage has a better instantaneous turn rate but inferior sustained turn rate (no figures to support but would be great to have them) also my gues is in the Indo Pak context the engagement would be in lower altitude belts….typically less than 20000 maybe 15000 ft…what would be the outcome then ????Assuming that neither aircraft has an advantageous position over the other….
I hope that I am understood…..
fantumfan2003why not be realistic and add in the two R530Ds which the Viper has to avoid first, then the R73 (yes india has supposedly with some difficulty integrated it in non-HMS mode).
the Mirage also has a higher top speed and lighter wing loading.these 1-vs-1 dogfights are just what PAF hopes for, but sorry thats not how the game is played in real world.
In reality IAF will outgun, out missile and overpower the PAF with numbers…but thats not what I am getting at…Your last sentence suggests PAF pilots have an edge in 1v1 Close combat over IAF pilots ….is that so ????
fantumfan2003The scenario is for having a level playing field…
The scenario is for having a level playing field…So with those variables…what would be the outcome….???
fantumfan2003F-16 the best dogfighter??? Since when? It is at best an average fighter. The mirage would kill it in a2a. Some guys have been claimimg that the f-16 has more powerful engine, but the weight of the f-16 has also increased tremendously to nullify it or rather more powerful engines were required since it got heavier.
Would a Mirage really kill a Viper ??? I am just asking …not being funny….Lets have this scenario relevant to the Indo-Pak scene….
Mirage 2000H with two Magic 550s, full cannon ammo, no droptanks or ordanance V/S F-16A with two AIM-9Ls, full cannon ammo and no droptanks or ordance…Pilots Skills : Level…Who would win the fight ????
fantumfan2003Sorry no details…
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=48035#post48035
Your assumption that the APG-66 of the F-16A had a longer detection range v/s the MiG-29A’s `Slot Back’ is incorrect. A rough estimate (rough coz actual ranges depend on target RCS etc etc ) would be a 20nm advantage for the MiG-29A and a 10-15nm advantage for the Mirage 2000 v.s the F-16A.
Correction : Balderdash = SB Shah, not Chopra. Sorry for the error.
But what we’ve been saying is that it is simple in relative, not absolute terms. When you’ve got a large and experienced engg. and support structure, it should’nt be such a problem. You already know that the Slovaks integrated the Magic-2 with the MiG-29 (no MIL-STD-1553B), quite easily. We did forget one thing though – an appropriate supply of liquid nitrogen for the seeker. The pylon interface may need to have been tweaked to get it to properly get the supply from the master pylon and the pressure may need to be adjusted for a different missile.
In relevance, check this out. Says that as early as 1982, the Iraqis smuggled 200 AIM-9Bs from Jordan for integration on their MiG-21s. Earlier, they had also had Magics on the MiG-21.
But should’nt there have been an actual example of such a project itself, to judge the complexities? Or was it that a feasibility report was carried out and deemed too expensive and complex?
With the SARH Super-530D, it can enagage only 1. Engaging 4 does’nt make any sense unless ARH AAMs have been integrated and AFAIK, the first radar to support the MICA, was the RDI. There is no way that the original RDM was intended to engage more than one target as well, with ARHAAMs off the screen by a good period, unless it’s really about “prioritising” two targets, like the current IAF N019 does.
There were plenty. If you go through the old link posted earlier, Balderdash also explains tactics evolved wrt the R-73E and Super-530D combo.
Incidentally, ASTE also put the R-60MK on the Hunter but it came too late to be of any real use.
Further details..?
Sorry no details…Can you link me to that R73 530D combo thread ???
Thanks
fantumfan2003Great Pic
Block “52” is the same as the block “50”, except for the engine, the blocks with have GE engine while the ones with the 2 a PW one. Block 52+ however is something different and much closer to Block 60 (better radar, CFT’s JHMCS etc).
HAF F-16C Block 52+, 343 Mira, Souda Crete:
http://hafcphotos.cs.net/photo_viewer_detail.cfm?photoid=149584HAF Mirage 2000-5 MkII, 114PM, Tanagra
http://hafcphotos.cs.net/photo_viewer_detail.cfm?photoid=149585HAF F-16 Block 50, 341 Mira, Nea Anchialos
http://hafcphotos.cs.net/photo_viewer_detail.cfm?photoid=160620
Very nice pic of the Mirage 2000-5Mk2….The 1700ltr droptanks carried by the mirage was also carried by the IAF Mirage 2000TH at Aero India 2005 BTW what is that pod on the cetreline ???
OT the F-16 is the bestdogfighter around…everything being equal it would beat a Mirage2000 but with CFTs on …I dont thnik it will..notwithstanding comments like “CFTs dont affect maneuverability”
fantumfan2003Anybody have any details on how the Indian RDM-4 equipped Mirage-2000H/TH manage to fire the R-73?
R-73 / R27 have been tested on the Mirages there were problems with the R-27 …no reports on R73 being successful or not…absence of negative report could imply Tests were a success
fantumfan2003Would it be benefitial for carrier take off, if the MiG-29K adopted these engines
Dont think so..the TVC on the MiG-29OVT are for helping the aircraft manouevre better in Aircombat….
fantumfan2003I thought all M2Ks were equipped with an HMS………….
Don’t know if the newer airframes have a newer HMS.Latest reports suggest the ZhukMF rather than ME. Either way Bars is unlikely. Which radar exactly comes is anyone’s guess for now.
They are not to replace Mig21s. Only LCA will fill that role. Till then Bison will hold and the remaining Mig21 squadrons will see a slow phase out. MRCA deal is for newer squadrons for AF expansion.
That is because it is really not that urgent. For now there are more urgent things to look forward to. Mainly the MKI, LCA, Refuelers, Phalcons and the AJT. These deals are far more important and strategically have a lot more value. IAF already has overwhelming superiority vis its opponents. 126 aircraft do nothing to improve that situation. They are needed as intensive complements to MKIs, Jags and Mig27s and to support LCA in secondary air to air roles. As per the AF the primary role is that of strike. IAF has no lack of air superiority assets. IAF does lack quality deep strike packages. MKIs are slowly coming and the present mark of Migs and Mirages are inadequate to do the job. A nice upgrade will do them good but as the roles and responsibilities expand so will the need for more aircraft. MRCA is no small term solution. It will take its time. Unlike AWACS or refuelers these can wait a couple of years IMO.
Its the last 12 a/c that we have got are the ones equipped with the MHS probably Thales manufactured…
fantumfan2003The Chinese have always lived with Russian copies of a/c which had very low MTBFs on Engines and Airframe Hours…but even they have now woken up to the fact they nedd a/c that last,…they are no more in the “quantity not quality” clan….
fantumfan2003Its the Mirage 2000-5Mk2
I beleive the Mirage 2000-5Mk2 will be the future MMRCA…Although like the MiG-29M2 it is based ona another aircraft (Mirage2000) its still a better buy than the MiG-29M2 because of its build quality….which should be the uppermost as a deciding factor…the IAF wants them operational will 2015 and beyond…besides the IAF has got a go ahead from the govt to get 12 qatari Mirage2000-5 which were evaluated and okayed by the IAF….so if these are in the M-MRCA will be the Mirage 2000-5Mk2 and yes there is always a possibility of upgrading the H and TH variants to -5MK2 standard which will mean the IAF will have 200+ M-MRCA
fantumfan2003You mean the MiG-29K. It’s only a feasibility study at the moment.
Yes and delivery will take much longer. This is why it makes sense to go for some Rafael instead. The local industry could do well to absorb related technologies for that timeline as well. But the addition of yet another type into inventory would require the deletion of an existing type. The retirement of the MiG-29 9.12 makes sense in that regard but I don’t want to see that happen.
Brahmos on a MiG-29M2 ??? Will it fit …There was a Kh-31A/P next to the MiG-29M2 on the ramp at AI2005 and it was a very big missile compared to the M2…At best it would fit under the belly or on the inner weapon stations..But Brahmos ???!!! You have picture of that model ????
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