Hyperionbuying fighters isn’t the behaviours of a bankroot country, it is?
so if we look at your logic, buying 2 european fremm or european helos will bar the way of the french or rafale in greece??
curious, Greeks wich look for 65% air ground capability could buy the laggar of
this cathegory wich is dearer and without AESA rather buying rafale..Courious logic ? isn’t it? :o:o
If i could understand your english, i would be happy to answer you.
The only thing i understand is that probably say “why don’t you buy the Rafale if the aircraft you seek is meant for 65% for air-to-ground”.
Well, i guess the answer must be somewhere amongst the “BS” i wrote about enthustiasts that shouldn’t be naive in the Rafale No.5/No3 threads. Ah, that’s right, you thought it was BS, so you don’t remember it now. (You know, the tiny political part or the rumours that give EF for favourite for years now).
My personal wish about this is: Buy F16s now. They have quick deliveries and HAF can absorb them very quickly in the existing infrastructure. They ‘re cheap and good. Wait for about 2014 and learn more certain info about the F35. Then act accordingly: Buy EF or Rafale and F35 is numbers according to the capabilities that we will then know. Meaning, if the EF (hopefully with AESA)/Rafale, can effectively deal in BVR by then (in WVR i don’t question it), buy more EF/Rafale and less F35. And the contrary in the opposite scenario.
P.S. :
1)This isn’t MY logic, it’s what a newspaper wrote. Can be totally BS. Same goes for the magazine. It’s not the no1 military magazine in Greece. And it doesn’t mention the other 300+ criteria. And it *is* strange that it mentions the 65% strike capability, but also mentions supercruising importance being raised, thrust vectoring and helmet mounted display with high importance… For all we know it could even be a typographical error. Certainly the criteria changes mentioned, don’t show a strike aircraft. Even if we take it as correct, at the end, it’s the criteria themselves that will count, not the “official use” (which probably allows to change the criteria at will). Because HAF can shift existing F16s to other roles and put the newcomers to do whatever she is pleased more to.
2) I totally lost you on the Fremms and helicopters. Do you refer to my posts in the Rafale thread??? The Fremm and helicopters don’t “bar” the Rafale automatically. Most likely the rejection of the exchange Mirage/Rafale did (although officially the Rafale is still a candidate). You do understand, that keeping in small numbers in the same airforce Mirage2000EGM, Mirage2000-5 Mk2 and Rafale, doesn’t make much sense. They use more or less the same weapons, but are effectively almost 3 different types. (The changes from the EGM to the 2000-5 are too many).
The 4 (+option for 2) Fremm and helicopters, is simply good enough to maintain good relations and reward Sarko for the political support last spring in NATO’s summit about Fyrom. (ah, yes, politics again…). It’s not over yet of course. In March our PM will visit Obama. Then we will see how things will go.
3) I presume you ask if buying aircrafts is a behaviour of a bankrupt country? I don’t know… Is it? I don’t understand the purpose of the question! Anyway, if you think of Greece as a bankrupt country, you can celebrate that we don’t buy the Rafale! Who would like to have a customer that doesn’t pay! Dassault would suffer! One less headache for you!
4) I ‘ve no clue of what a “laggar” is. And who is “laggar”? The EF or the F16s? Because they both lack AESA.
5) If you ask me, if HAF wants EF at some point and now we can take Rafale OR F16s for strike, i would certainly prefer F16s. Because introducing both Rafale and EF in HAF is not a logical option. And if we ‘re going to get F35s for strike in 2015, introducing a NEW type for strike now, makes no sense.
The F 16s and later the F 35s can do the A2G role while the EFs can maintain air superiority. It is the better in that regard than the Rafale.
Yes, if we believe the newspaper article, that’s the idea. The F16 has quick delivery times and is a type we already operate (so quickly operational squadron with ready support etc). In case of EF purchase, obviously some more F16s of the existing fleet will pass into strike missions and EF will take their place in A-2-A.
HyperionAnd here are the changes in the technical critera from the magazine Greg mentioned. Unfortunately, not all are here, but the modified ones. This is as posted in greek forum, quoting the magazine:
– HAF insists and keeps pressuring that starting date of deliveries must be inside 2011. Due to this very tight schedule, some companies are examining the possibility of delivering aircrafts that are already scheduled in their production lines.
– The requirement for reduction of the number of different aircraft types, was cancelled, in order to avoid complaints that existing aircrafts are being promoted. (read F16). The same goes for the requirement that the new aircraft must have both 1 and 2 seated versions.
– The use will be 65% for air-to-ground missions and in 35% for air-to-air. (read: replacement of A-7).
– The coefficient for the importance of 2 engines was reduced to 1,95.
– There is still a criterion for the existance of thrust vectoring. (nobody has it, but it’s still there).
– The coefficient for the presence of supercruising ability was raised from 1,5 to 1,89.
– The IRST must be interoperable with other onboard sensors and with other aircrafts via Link 16.
– Presence of IFF confirmed.
– The AESA now can be available at the time of delivery and not at the time of signing the contract. The coefficient of importance of the presence of AESA is now reduced from 11,5 to 2,8. (= direct hit on Rafale!)
– Big importance to the presence of Helmet Mounted Display, that must be functional in both air to air and air to ground roles.
– Capability of using sub-strategical weapons.
– There is a detailed listing of the desired capabilities of the self protection suite, that are higher than those of ASPIS II
The above seem contraddictory, if we believe them of course, as, from one side they photograph an “A-7 replacement” for mainly air-to-ground missions and from the other side, they improve EF’s chances.
A plausible scenario (plausible if we take the above as granted and want to explain them) was written in a todays’ newspaper, which would like this: The deal will “break” into 2 pieces. 10-20 F16s as immediate solution with LM giving very fast deliveries, as A-7 replacement. This would satisfy some of the above. And 20 EF (+option for 20) as an interim solution, before a next order at around 2015 and things will be more clear about F35’s capabilities. According to the newspaper’s model, HAF is satisfied with a quick and continuous flow of deliveries and EF will become the “Mirage” of the future, while the 2 US aircrafts will be the “F16” and “F4” of the past.
If you ask me, the above newspaper scenario, only makes sense, if we follow later with a 2nd EF purchase. Because keeping only 20 EFs, has no logic whatsoever. It would make an even bigger sense, if the EF can deal effectively in BVR with the export version of F35 and in 2015, buy more EFs and few F35s, while the Turks will be commited to the F35.
Otherwise, IMHO, it makes sense not to brake the deal in two.
HyperionI guess he’ll probably have a hard time travelling abroad in general.
I don’t know about that. Theoretically, he can appeal (so the sentence isn’t definitive yet and will remain such since he won’t present to appeal) and so i doubt an interpol warrant can be issued. It’s wasn’t judged as “volontary” either (it was accidental). So…
Generally, with Turkey, only Turks can judge Turks. This is the latest, a Turkish actor, admitted pubblically in turkish TV, killing greek-Cypriot POW in 1974. He says the first one was a 19year old greek-Cypriot, tied up, he was ordered to kill him. The lad spat at him at the face and he shot him in the forehead. He said he killed 10 in total (not specifying if POWs).
http://youtube.com/watch?v=w8yB4ySDP6I&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KXBi4d-uxyk
Now, in Cyprus and Greece this isn’t a surprise, but the families in Cyprus of missing POWs went in agitation as you can imagine. The next day, the turkish actor, took back everything, that he wasn’t saying a real story, but a scenario of a film he wants to do , like “Save Private Ryan”. I guess he can call it “Kill POW Giannis”. Of course nobody who saw that video actually believes it. Simply he got scared and pressured by politicians and decided to take back everything.I believe the turkish Foreigh Minister said something like “such foolish comments unjustly stain Turkey’s profile”. More or less.
So, he can’t be judged in a Cypriot Court or in the International Crime Court for violating the Geneva Convention on POWS (or his commander who ordered him), unless Turkey volontarily gives him. So, at best, he may be convicted in absence by Cypriot Court.
What Cypriot families plan, since they can’t ask for trial of the person, is trial of Turkey in the European Court of Human Rights and for not revealing the fate or the missing POWS (give their bones to their families). But a turkish judge in that Court already warned Turkey about it and urged his gov to start home investigation. Why? Because, in order for a case to arrive to the European Court for Human Rights, first the charging party, must exaust all local justice means (turkish). Only after a case finishes all degrees of justice in Turkey, then a Cypriot can bring the case to the European Court of Human Rigths, where a) The case isn’t sure that will be admitted, because the actor himself isn’t a “country”, you can’t press charges against persons in that court and b) You must prove to the Court that the local (turkish) authorities didn’t provide just investigations and eventually trials.
With 2 words, Turkey can delay the case for years and it’s not even sure that the EU court will admit a case againt Turkey for something done by a soldier and his commander many years ago. It will also be difficult in case there is a mild conviction from turkish court, to prove that the turkish Court was too “soft” with him and so ask a new trial in the EU Court. While if Turkey doesn’t prosecute the case, it will be submitted directly to the EU Court. So, it’s best for the actor and Turkey to burry the issue internally.
So, the only thing that will be done probably in a short term, is that the actor will be condemned in Cyprus. The families of missing POWs also want him to say what he knows about those POWs and eventually others.
Of course this news is small print for international tabloids, only the Herald Tribune wrote a bit about it:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/5238/79726534ts1.png
The excuse of “I wasn’t telling a real story, i was making up a tv scenario” didn’t convince either the EU Commissioner Oli Rehn, who was shown the video. “Tragical story of shame, that clearly violates the Geneva Convention”, he said.
http://www.naftemporiki.gr/news/static/09/01/28/1622260.htm
So, don’t worry, we won’t try unjustily any Turkish serviceman. Nobody can! (With tangible results on him). If you are a Turk, you can do whatever you want and never pay. At the worst case scenario you can always deny and say it never happened (Armenians know something about that). So, why recognize International Courts and other such futile annoyances…
It’s funny, but in case of greek- turkish war, Greeks may end in the International Crimian Court. Turks, without Turkey’s will , cannot end.
Hyperionwill the pilot actually be sent to Greece for his sentence or will it be served in a turkish prison or will the turks comply with the greek court at all?
No, simply a moral satisfaction for the dead’s family, after the turkish airforce came with an official accusation that the greek pilot caused the crash and threatened to bring Greece to Court and ask for the cost of the turkish F16. Of course these are the usual turkish statements for pubblicity, because they are careful of staying away from courts. To make Greece pay, Turkey would have to recognize the juristiction of the Interantional Court of Hague, but of course Turkey won’t do that, because then Greece will be able to force her legally for the Aegean disputes…
To give you an idea, no turkish serviceman can be judged BY ANYONE , for ANYTHING, even if it’s a war crime.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/asp/statesparties.html
(International Court for war crimes).
So, don’t take the notice too seriously. Probably the widow pressed charges against the Turkish pilot and now can have the moral satisfaction that he can’t enter Greece for tourism, because he will be held until the appeal.
HyperionI think kovy said that the greeks were keen on ordering the Rafale, hence the interest of inviting thim over for evaluation several times. However the economic downturn made it unlikely for greece to be able to order them, so they try to save face by leaking noise saying the F16 can in fact handle the Rafale quite well, so let’s just buy more F16s instead.
Yes, so the govement paid the magazines to to write “negative” reviews, since the F1 era up to now. I don’t know if i have stressed this enough, but since 2002, in the press, the EF is given as favourite. So if someone in our gov wanted to buy Rafale, he surely hid it well over the years, because surely the press was foolded in its entirety. Everyone was giving the Rafale for lost, until Sarko came to Athens.
And who would you call for exercizes with your airforce if you were Greece? With France we have signed for years now military cooperation. Co-trainning of various units, from pilots to paras. If you can’t train with your closest politically friend, then with who? We did train with german EF too , as Greg wrote. But traditionally, do you have any idea on when was the last time a german plane came to Greece for exercise outside the NATO ones? I don’t. As i don’t about British or Spanish or Italian.
Sometimes i really want to buy EF… The money exist, the economy has taken a hit and deficit will exceed the 3% for the next 2 years (as in other eu countries) and GDP is expected between 0.2-0.5% growth only. But this is already in the budget plans, meaning included with the defense expenditures calculated. They are calculated in 5 five year packages. And there are 2nd and even 3rd priority programs that can be cut, if a top priority is absolute. You think there is a compelling reason for more SAR helicopters? Or for more VBL Panhards? There is for naval cooperation aircrafts, so i leave them aside (from the programs the Mod mentioned a few days ago). Or you think that we couldn’t postpone the Fremm or buy some used frigates? The list in the 5 years package goes much further than that, but i only refer the ones announced last week).
But trust me if the Mirage 2000 is already a match for F16 WVR (and BVR too as it has provent) has such a reputation of being sneaky, and that with mechanical RDY2, imagine a plane which adds:
– Smaller RCS
– More LPI ESA (passive first and now even AESA)
– OSF/NG
– Spectra capable of locating any emitter within a few degrees and even range it
– higher altitude for longer missile reachNo really those claims are BS, and just some attempt to make it look okay to just purchase more F16s instead of going for a more expensive eurocanard.
Nic
I trust you and i trust it is better than the Mirage. As i also trust the EF is better than the F16. The problem is that our problem isn’t the F16. We know it perfectly by now and we have one of its most modern versions. The problem is F35 and we can’t give money now for something “good, but not good enough” and have to give more money again in 5-6 years for the F35 itself, because we realised that our previous “heavily paid” aircrafts aren’t capable of seeing 1:1 on the F35. If the DO, i hope we buy one of the 2 europeans. EF will have aesa by then, the Rafale will hopefully have its own addons, it will worth more the money.
HyperionAh, here’s the video about JHMCS, there is also a small footage of it in use actually.
http://youtube.com/watch?gl=IT&feature=related&v=GXm1SZcBZ88
These are comments of 3 different pilots:
Pilot: “Combined with the IRIS-T that equips the Block 52+, it changes the basis of the dogfight”
Journalist : “So with this combination , the aircrafts of your squadron have a decisive advantage in air combat, correct?”
– Pilot: “This is very clear, we have already advanced much in the trainning in this sector and i can say that we operate them effectively”.
Other pilot: “you don’t need to turn your nose so much. It gives you another 90 degrees advantage, which is translated in 5-6 seconds gained when turning at max g. So the shooting down of a target is done more quickly and easier.” “Certainly it is the future for the F16s and i imagine for all the aircrafts that can use it and in combination with high off boresight missile, like IRIS-T or AIM-9X or Python, it will be very difficult for someone to approach such an aircraft.
And for Mirage fans. Skyros readiness airbase. As a pilot says, “we fly interception missions at any time, we can be called to take off at 05.00 am , as at 21:00 pm”.
http://youtube.com/watch?gl=IT&feature=related&v=GXm1SZcBZ88
HyperionAnd where the Rafale should be at least as deadly no ? 😉 lol
I would expect more. Since the Rafale has lower RCS and better sensors, including the OSF, logic says it must be at least more sneaky and thus deadlier.
Just for my culture, since in France we don’t have any aircraft with such a helmet, is the advantage so big ? What’s the feedback from the Greek use ?
There was a pilot talking about it in a weekly tv transmission, most probably it’s in youtube somewhere. Quoting from memory, he was enthusiastic about it saying that it changes radically the dogfight as you know it up to that day.
Similarly, as I don’t know properly the Turkish/Greek air fight : on which frequency did dogfight happen ?
Depends on the period, the way of conduct, the intentions of the other side. We have daily 5 minute readiness aircrafts in various bases. Take offs are daily, i ‘d say dogfights occur more times in a week. There are some statistics from time to time in newspapers, but you can bet that there is a evolution of the situation into a dogfight at least once a week, with the exception of summer (flight moratorium, often violated, for tourism’s sake).
If a real war would break out, would it be an important part of the battle ?
I am not a pilot, but i guess you can’t kill them all in BVR, specially when both airforces are sizeable… Sooner or later some will come to the merge.
On the other hand, did the Greek plan to actually use BVR without first being able to identify the plane visually (as it’s often required in modern air force practice, making most of the fuss about BVR quite pointless) ?
I don’t know the war plans, even if i did, i wouldn’t tell them. 😀 There are some ways to make sure at least in some cases that you are not having a friendly aircraft coming. BVR isn’t pointless. If it was, nobody would make BVR missiles and better radars/IFF in the first place. Or stealth for what matters. Stealth won’t help you much if you come into a dogfight.
Once again, the Rafale seems prone to be at least as good, and probably better.
I sure expect it to be better! In Fox two magazine french pilots say the Mirage can’t handle the Rafale.
A point which I find interesting here, and in modern aircraft in general, is the importance of the hardware/electronic on board, which is most of the time quite independent from the plane actual modernity/capacity. The structural differences are quite few usually no ?
Of course avionics and weapons make importance. A greek pilot in a tv transmission for example (F4 AUP), was saying with pride that his F4E was like reborn and he was specially happy about the new radar, which is “the soul of an aircraft” as he said. Aircraft designs have improved aerodynamically, but nowdays it’s mostly about sensors, specially in BVR. It won’t help you doing rolls and loops like mad from 40 kms away if the other has launched 2 BVR missiles against you.
For example, I see the 360° awareness of Spectra as something structural, since it requires a lot of sensors. On the other hand, a better radar would fit in any air plane, so it’s not part of the intrinsic quality of a plane IMHO. The part of structural difference between a F16, Rafale and EF don’t seem quite numerous to me.
I really don’t know about that.
Regarding the F35, they could be more numerous, but not only in the right way (VLO comes with its own price) and are certainly way more difficult to judge by now.
Yes, the problem is exactly that now you can’t judge accurately an aircraft that isn’t ready yet. At least i can’t. I hope HAF can have better ideas about this.
About the F35, what makes the Greek, and Turks, for once they agree ;), think that the F35 will be such a AA killer ?
Oh, not all Greeks agree. As i said, don’t take what one person says as gold. What i say, is valid only for Hyperion. Other greek members, speak of the F35 as “bomb truck”, “potato”, that in the Aegean the situation will be so crowded that WVR will overshadow BVR and so on. I just want to be on the safe side, just in case they ‘re wrong. So i prefer F16 now, and when we will be able to judge the F35 in “flesh and bones”, we will have clear thoughts about the use of the european “stealth hunters” , which will be both more mature in the meantime.
Personally, I find it quite odd since the plane first mission is AG.
Personally, i think of it (after also reading Rand’s charts), as dead in dogfight against any of the 2 european aircrafts. (provided they will both have helmet mounted displays). But, in the BVR, it’s most about sensors. So i hold my reserves. Most will depend on how much stealth the export version will be. Primary mission is AG, true. But, it’s fighter, not an attack aircraft (designation).
Furthermore, regarding is VLO features, we don’t know to which extend they’ll be efficient and available for Turkey and Greece (and who knows whether it’ll be at the same level)…
It’s almost certain that we will be given the same stealth level as Turkey (Turkey is a low level partner, can’t pretend special stealth).
A last point about Greece and Turkey : they don’t care about 2 engines planes, do they ?
Oh, i think the pilots do care! Probably the minister of economics doesn’t care, once they showed him the cost per hour of flight of the EF, Rafale against the F16 and Mirage. Since interceptions are daily (regardless if they end in dogfights or simple shadowing/identification), the difference between an 8000 euros per hour (mentioned for F16 in press) and 28000 (for EF), is considerable. Spend so much more, just to say “hello” to our friends? (Minister of economics over and out).
Let’s see how it’ll unfold. And, at worst, the FREEM will perpetuate the presence of french kit in the Greek army 😉
According an article in todays’ defencenet.gr, Dassault is complaining about the Fremm deal and that although the minister of Defense “photographed” the FREMM (saying that the KYSEA has started negotiations and that the French is confirmed that they release the Scalp Naval), he hasn’t at hand a written decision of the KYSEA yet, so Dassault hopes to turn the tables.
Practically says that all of the contenders are lobbying the hardest they can to grab a deal. Specially Germans and Americans are keen to take the aircraft. According to a scenario in the article, that some advice the goverment is , in case the Americans lose (probably to the EF), to make a commitment to the F35 for the future, as an intention for entrance in the group of industrial cooperation , like Israel said…
Conjectures… Each day you hear a new one… Accordin to the same article in HAF they are praising the Super Hornet (something the greek forum members with inside sources close to HAF’s chief missed apparently) , “which they regard by far superior to the others, untill we see the EF and Rafale with AESA radar on”.
If i may add, God forbid if we ‘re going to buy a new aircraft type that’s in the sunset of its development.
And whatever the outcome, let’s hope the planes will never see actual combat !
Yes.
Another side question : what’s your feedback regarding the performance of both the F16 and M2000 in the HAF ?
Just curious
You hear various things. There are football fans here too. I guess if you want to know the truth , you should make a poll between HAF’s pilots… One case that have been posted here too, because it was on foreign magazine, is the case of a HAF F16 squadron commander i believe, who said that the Mirage is better in dogfight, the F16 is more complete in various roles.
off course not..and i never thought or write that
BTW, you forget that the greeks have played on very regular basis with the rafale F1 and F2 during the numerous TLP …you know, those NATO exercices where the typhoon used to be quite shy (bad kovy ! this is not a rafale vs FF2000 thread)
Yes, but i still don’t understand what you meant, if not that since we played so much, we should buy them…
I am VERY naive
But you are making my point which is : Greece will buy more F-16 for many good reasons (good value for maney, weak dollar, new US president to please, already in service, cheap weapons…
Greece MAY buy F16s. It’s not over, untill it’s over. But i DO want us to buy F16… And all of the above is true. With a small variation on Obama. If you see the greek PM announcing the F16 purchase BEFORE going to Obama, it means he wanted to please him. If you see him announcing it AFTER he saw Obama, it means that Obama pleased him. 🙂 I mean, Karamanlis did the “F16 gift” thingie, once with Bush. Fort Worth factory was about to close , our PM put the order, thinking that Bush would repay him somehow. Well, he did repay him, but in the way our PM had hoped. 😀 I don’t think he is going to repeat the same error twice.
To the above reasons, i would add the inability of other contenders to explain why they worth the extra money against the F35. One lacks this, the other lacks that. It has been written more times, that HAF has a certain haste, because of the A7 that must be retired. The european aircrafts, some with systems that are still in the works, meaning, they might be further delays or aftersale problems. The F16 is tested and ready to be delivered. No new radar to fit and see if works well, no new HMD to see if works well, no new weapon to integrate, etc. Same goes for the Super Hornet, although i detest the idea of it being purchased.
and a free ticket to enter the JSF club in 10 years).
That’s already been given after Sarko’s visit in Athens. Dennis Plessas (the LM representative for SE Europe), had said that the F35 is ready for Greece and can be delivered as soon as 2014 if memory serves me, provided that we will make a well timed order. But he added that for now, LM thinks that yet another F16 sale is the best for us. I had posted it in the previous Rafale News (No.5?) with relevant link.
Au revoir.
HyperionI think that since Turkey is going to get get F-35 it would be better to have a different air superiority aircraft. Buying F-16 to be followed later by F-35 will not give Greece A2A superiority against Turkey: the F-35 is not superior to the F-35 as an A2A fighter! If Rafale has gone then I think Typhoon should be the choice for air superiority.
Buying F16 now, gives a bit of quality advantage over the turkish counterparts. We don’t expect to follow Turkey in numbers anyway. Besides, in case of crisis, we are the defenders. They will come into our SAM umbrella.
The EF as antidote for the F35. I would hope so! I really do! And if HAF’s report EF vs F35 was positive about the EF, i sure hope we will buy it.
The problem is, is it a solution? Who guarantees it?… From interview with EADS:
“The Eurofighter is just what Greece needs. A Stealth Hunter”.
And now into detail, how exactly is going to hunt:
“The reply we were given, was that thanks to the existence of IRST, the PIRATE, basically the advantage of a VLO aircraft ceases to exist.
The also revealed that the perfomance of detection of the PIRATE in good conditions is very good in range, arriving at several dozens of nautical miles for big aircrafts. So, as they stressed, it is possible the detection of stealth airctafts, which in any case aren’t stealth from all angles anyway”.
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5528&Itemid=49
I won’t comment on this, i ‘ve done so in the past.
Anyway, there are some variables in the equation:
– How good will the CaptorE will be.
– What will be the RCS of the export F35 version.
I say, let’s wait till 2015 (hopefully T3 will be available), before we spend our nice money on the super duper stealth hunter that its own company says his best bet will be the Pirate (and hopefully after detection with the PIRATE, somehow it will find a lock and launch Amraam).
By 2015, we will be able to see how much stealth the F35 is, how EF performs against it, etc. A visit of a HAF committe in the close-by Italy, will clear any doubts. If the EF can handle the F35, then by all means, order EF in 2015 and let the Turks with F35! But today is IMHO too risky.
All the above concern in BVR of course. (I don’t expect the F35 to beat EF in dogfight cinematically speaking.)
HyperionWill the Greeks get F 35 in future. This question, I think has the most relevance to their acquisition. It don’t make sense for them to get F 16s now if they cannot upgrade.
There isn’t anything official, but it is expected that we ‘ll get F35 too, yes. The newspapers have written about a new order in about 2015, so most likely, the time “indicates” F35.
HyperionPls do not account me with things I never wrote. Not even indirectly.
Phrase like the “Rafale sucks” was never used or even implied by ANYONE up until now.
I didn’t refer to you. I was referring to the “rumours” in the greek fora (you know where). You ‘re not posting there (nor do i anymore).
Truly I do not wish (nor was ever my intention) to turn this thread into a Rafale vs Typhoon debate. If you agree lets move here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66052
People writing into this thread wouldnt like it.
Agreed. But i don’t intend to stay long in the forum. I ‘ve had enough of the EF vs Rafale both here and in greek fora.
Again if you are referring to me I must remind you the discussions we had.
Mathematical formulas may be good for air forces like KLu or other central european ones, but in our country we actually have air force pilots who risk their lives every day, in an effort to keep the Aegean clear.
Probably we could respect their opinion more than an accountant’s formula.
Complete misunderstanding. I refer to the entusiasts (our french friends here) in this forum that think there is some magic world out there where all aircrafts are examined in God’s justice. I simply said that in our evaluation (and i suspect in others too), they use for “score” mathematical formulas. The defencenet.gr has even pubblished a variation of the coefficients recently to “help” the aircrafts without AESA. It’s no secret. If you want to i can find the article, it was posted in defencenet.gr. YES! We use mathematical formula! It’s not the final word, but it’s part of the technical comparison on paper.
ps Posters in this thread would never accept what you take for granted, that the EF is a better dogfighter than the rafale. I strongly recommend to take this debate here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66052
I don’t ask them to accept it! It’s just my opinion! I ‘ve said the same in greek fora, despite me taking the part of the Rafale, since nobody else was sparing a good word about it.
Τα εν οίκο ουκ εν δήμο
Ειναι κατι που δεν τον ξερουν ολοι? Εδω το αλλο το φορουμ το διαβαζουν και συμμετεχουν και οι απεναντι. I don’t think there is anything there that isn’t known or easily found out. Both in politics or in technical matters.
HyperionI sure wouldn’t dispute that, but I try to discuss more on the real merits of the planes rather than something else. And as you I surely don’t think the Rafale will fly with greek colours, which is a damn shame, because as an aviation enthusiast I could very well picture it in a aegean grey paint scheme.
Politically speaking, for us having France as alternative aircraft source was always important because we have traditionally good relations with France (Valery Giscard D’ Estaing had personal friendship with our PM Karamanlis – the uncle of the current PM – during the 1967-74 junta, when Karamanlis was living in Paris and D’ Estaing gave him his jet to go to Greece in 1974 when the junta fell and also supported the entrance of Greece in the ECC of the time. Even before him De Gaulle was a supporter of Greece and was advicing for entrance in ECC as a future goal that Greece should have. Also, the Mirage F1 was proved lethal over the Aegean against F4E and the Mirage2000 also gave some specific advantages in flight characteristics and weapons (airborne Exocet, SCALP). I guess it’s not a coincidense that Sarko isn’t very fond of Turkey…
So, i am not happy to think that gradually there won’t be a french link in HAF. From the european consortium politically there are no gains either. Britain and Italy are proturkish, Germany is neutral, Spain doesn’t care about such things.
There are some EF fans in greek fora, that also blatantly antifrench and can’t find a single positive think about the Mirage. They complain they were more expensive in everything, from spare parts to missiles, that they don’t get updated often, etc. But they don’t say also that it was a plane that could look the F16 in the eyes, that gave us access to weapons that Americans were refusing to (US even pressured France in not giving us SCALP, but France did). And also the other “rumours” in fora, that the Mirage2000, have proved structurally much more resistent than the F16 B30 of the same time.
Even now, the 2000-5 is said to be very deadly in BVR with MICA and very sneaky with the IR version. In WVR of course, it will have trouble in the future without a helmet. But even for their BVR and EW suite (which has been praised in more defence magazines) and the ability to launch SCALP, they ‘re worthy.
The end of an era… Sad.
EDIT. Confused Mitterand with D’ Estaing.
HyperionThe AdlA didn’t go for a HMD for cost reasons, and because they didn’t feel it was needed (keep in mind the Rafale mission right now is to replace jaguars doing CAS and the next squadron will be performing the nuclear role). That said I believe a HMS has indeed been integrated, and that the Rafale on offer for export is offered with an israeli HMD off the shelf solution. Think a HMD is soon going to be on top of the AdlA priority list, once they have been spanked by JHCMS enough for their tastes.
Rafale also is offered with 90kn engines, which will make it more of a competitor against the EF in dogfight. That the AdlA didn’t order those engines due to cost reasons don’t mean they aren’t available for other customers.
I think both HMD and bigger engines are available easily to new customers, so I think you should stop saying that the Rafale needs in those departments. Yes AdlA Rafales do, but not the plane as offered to foreign customers.
If you guys were to order Rafales, I doubt Dassault would refuse to integrate IRIS-T, seeing how desperate they are to get their first export customer.
NIc
If all that is true, (but i have no way of verifying), then don’t visit a greek defense forum. It’s what the EF fans complain again about over and over again. Unfortunately when defencenet.gr interviewed before Xmas the 2 companies, they didn’t think to ask about the helmet and IRIS-T. They askes about the AESA and they were reassured that it can be delivered (the french one) if we were to place an order now (while EADS replied that they can if we pay the cost of the final stage of CaptorE).
If Dassault did give us all this , well, that would change many things. I don’t know. Things got complicated with the exchage deal. It was written in defencenet manazine that HAF said that wanted to keep numbers too and giving only the brand new 2000-5 wasn’t a likeable idea, while keeping the older ones.
The EF fans who know “inside” things also complain about HAF not wanting to hear “will”. They want something certified now, because the successful integration of ICMS2000 Mk2 took 2 years delay in the 2000-5.
I don’t know my friend, i think , like Greg, that the Rafale isn’t going to fly with greek colours. Whose fault, i don’t know. If we were Switzerland, i can assure you that for political reasons alone we would buy Rafale. But we have the Turks next to us. This complicates both operational needs and politics.
As consolation, the frigates will go to DCN shipyards without any competition , exactly again for political reasons, to make Sarkozy happy. Because in a contest, even if we modified coefficients to make Germans, Dutck and Americans to lose, it would be hard to do so for the italian FREMM… It’s the same ship and the radar seems a little better, so how would the french beat the italian one? But, Italy sides politically always with Turkey and FYROM, so , to avoid the embarassing contest, Sarko is going to get the FREMMs on a silver plate without competition.
So, it works bothways.
HyperionAnyway, i wish both the EF and Rafale best of luck. If we do choose the EF, i hope HAF’s SOT evaluation report on EF vs F35 was positive, nothing more. There is no rumour about this yet, let alone something more reliable coming from defence magazines.
Europe can and should make competitive aircrafts and i would be happy if we could only buy european equipment only. Under this POV, i won’t be particularly depressed with the acquisition of EF, because at least it’s a way to support the “family” (EU). On the contrary i will tear my hair apart if we buy Super Hornet, which according to defencenet.gr was presented last week (aka lobbied for) to HAF officials and Boeing is presenting it as a “true” 5th generation.
Between introducing 50 Superhornerts or 40 EF, i prefer 1000 times the 40 EF! New aircraft type, but at least european and i don’t think it has anything to envy to the SuperBug.
HyperionHey Hyperion, nice to see you there and thanks for your very thought out replies as usual. The second part of that quote is what I was talking about regarding the AtoA experience of the Rafale pilots, but as usual jackonicko would twist my words and pretend I said adla pilots were twits that don’t know aircombat… :confused:
I understand the appeal of just getting a number of vipers now and see how things go with F35 or Tranche 3 typhoons or even Rafale F3+ in a while when those platforms are more mature. I find this perfectly reasonable and I would definately wouldn’t cry foul against the Rafale. I don’t like, however, people like greg trying to make one thing the Rafale is no better than a late viper with twisted arguments, comparing apples and oranges, and sometimes plaing lying.
Please, let me make myself clear. It’s not certain that we will buy F16s. For all i know, greek fora members with “inside sources” have been swearing to God, that the EF is finished job for years, it’s done deal , the PM has “promised” it to Merkel etc.
But, as i always say, when listening to those with “inside” sources, always keep a reserve in your mind. Personally i HOPE we will buy F16s, as i have hoped so the other time i was here (the Rafale was my second pick, but what i would really like would be a Swiss-like evaluation). It has been argued that EADS never bothered to send the EF to Greece for similar testing like the Rafale did, because EADS was comfortable enough that the sale was secured, so why send it? (And if i may add, why risk an unexpected non stellar result in BVR, like the French did?).
One thing i can say for the French, that they did have the balls to send the Rafale twice (even the F1) and face our pilots in BVR. I wish EADS had done the same. Because in greek fora, EF fans find it easy to bash the Rafale for not “sweeping from the sky” our Block 52+ like flies. We won’t know how the EF would fare in the same role though, will we… Because in BVR, tactics play a big role as well as radar. If you pick early your enemies and accelerate quickly and apply a good tactic, both having the same missile, i don’t know how better you can be, even if you have a far superior cinematically aircraft. And the Block 52+ has a good radar.
The pdfs also explain WHY there wasn’t a clear score announced. (Because they couldn’t tell if the MICA had secure kill or not).
So I thank you for translating the articles that greg was talking about. It shows that greg was indeed dishonest, as arthuro said, since he claimed that as far as he knew the greeks didn’t use MIDS in their encounters against the Rafales, while it is clearly stated in the article that the greeks indeed used L16 at least in one of the encounters against Rafale F1s)
It doesn’t mention by name the link16 (maybe that’s why Greg forgot about it), but they used a link as it describes in target distribution and the Block 52+ do have link 16, so… Even the Block 50D have a limited data link ability with IDM.
As a final comment i say “It’s not over until it’s over”. Most probably it’s now EF vs F16 (God knows which block or configuration) and also most probably , much will be decided after our PM’s meeting with Obama. If that goes like the ones with Bush, i think Mrs. Merkel will sell her EF. If not, i think Mr. Obama will get yet another F16 order.
Sarkozy will have to be satisfied with Fremm + Super Puma + VBL and an uknown in numbers purchase of SCALP NAVAL. For now…
But i can’t help thinking that if Sarko had accepted to take back ALL Mirage, fate of the Rafale may have been better. Also, if the Rafale had HMD and integrated the IRIS-T, i think its chances would be much, much better. A greek company is involved in the IRIS-T and we have already placed the order for them. It’s supposed to be our next dogfight missile and most probably we won’t buy AIM-9X, always in the policy of de-americanization when possible. I know, most probably if we paid something extra, Dassault could certify it. But pay extra this, pay extra that… That’s how it becomes all too costly.
HyperionYes but there is a point where all this rumors, and (possible) inside info, becomes a reality. And we are at this point.
I expect us to buy EF according to the same rumours. I mean, newspapers have been rumouring it for months, the “inside” forum members too. So, i want to hear what they will say if we buy F16…
My problem with many of those rumours about how the Rafale “sucked” is that they come from the same people that are football fans of the EF. I mean, people that keep writing in greek fora over and over again false things about the Rafale , even after you show them that it’s not true. Example they repeatedly say that the Rafale has no close range IR missile. I had written it 3-4 that the MICA IR has close range mode too. It’s more expensive , fine, but why keep saying it doesn’t have? It’s more expensive but also more versatile. Suppose you fire all your AMRAAMs and you still have BVR targets. With IRIS-T you can’t do anything. With MICA IR you can still shoot BVR targets and use them in close range too. If they only had a HMD!
Or, the other forum member, quotes HAF’s Chief Yagos saying his preference is the Rafale. That’s goes against the “Rafale sucks” quoting from other forum members with pilots as sources. So, who is the best source? If the F16 is selected, what must i think for the credibility of all these “sources”? The same i had to think after the election of Grapsas despite their “secure sources”?
I trust more the specialized magazines. The EF is better than the Rafale in a battle between them, that i believe. That between the 2 versions that we are offered, the EF is the most cost/effective compared to the Rafale against the F35, this for me is yet to be proved. The F35 isn’t supposed to be a star in agility anyway, the BVR part concerns me more.
If you read this thread carefully you will understand. It is like Greece Vs Turkey. It is impossible to say something for one without referring to the other, no matter good intentions.
Yes, but what that tells you about its chances against F35 without AESA in BVR? EADS herself stated in defencenet “The Pirate can locate it at far distances”. Thank you very much. The OSF can probably do likewise and also use MICA IR btw. That’s my whole issue and between paying for the AESA and paying for integration of a HMD, i believe the latter would come cheaper.
But, since we can’t afford to do a guessing game, now the F16 is the most wise solution.
Apart this, last summer the SOT made the famous evaluation report of EF vs F35. I am sure that if EF shined, we won’t go for F16. So HAF happy, Merkel happy and for a more friendly Obama we can always promice him the F35…
Norway had a nice evaluation. Check out their noses now:dev2:
Don’t tell me about it! Sometimes i think i am speaking to children in this forum. They actually believe that “contests” can’t be rigged to make win anyone the gov likes. Ours are more honest actually, they make it clear that politics do matter too. We could pretend to be “Norway” or “South Korea” and still make first the one we want by changing the coefficients in the aircraft we want to win. Do you think that in turkish competition Of F16 vs Rafale (just those 2), the Rafale would EVER win? No, for political reasons. You think Su-35 vs F16 in S. Korea would ever see Su-35 as tender winner?
Dear enthusiasts. Final ranking, is made with a mathematical formula. A bit like this:
1,2xAESA radar + 0.8X thrust/weight ratio …. You want Rafale to win? You make the 1,2 to 2. You also fix the coefficient for electrooptical intruments for example to boost the Rafale even more. With such a modification the EF is “burnt”.
WELCOME TO REALITY DEAR ENTHUSIASTS ! (Don’t forget to tell the Swedish to go ask the Norwegians what where their importance coefficients for each components. Maybe then they ‘ll see how it was possible to lose in every sector -Cough-).
F-16 cannot handle F-35s, and I bet even 35s cannot handle 35s!!
I bet F35 can handle F35s just like anything can even handle itself. I know some people say “The F35 isn’t the answer to F35”. And given that the Russian won’t be bought by us, what if the enemy was F22? What would be buy then other than F22 itself? We would say “The answer to F22 isn’t F22, so we buy EF?”. I bet the Turks would be happy!
The F35 simply can’t give you any advantage over another F35. But no disadvantage either. So you can play your cards with pilot skill and tactics / use of mixed packets with your other aircrafts.
Anyway nice to hear from you again. I always respect your views.
P.S.: Yes, i know the EF vs Rafale is like Greece vs Turkey, but people should calm a bit down, they can BET we want a plane that will make a difference , since depending only to US sources isn’t the policy we like for airforce. So maybe it’s not as simply as “they don’t want to buy my toy! Shame on them! Villains! Beggars! Treacherous liars!”. A more mature approach would be advisable.
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