?????

So Greece paid 80% of the total cost IN ADVANCE without receving ANYTHING???

This is what the defence press has written (other greek members can confirm). It’s not about “not receiving”. Without funding, you can’t go on building the subs. The project would be delayed beyong all plans and the Navy wants those subs like yesterday. The idea was that the subsequent subs would incorporate on-the-fly the corrections made on the 1st one. I think the second is ready for sea trials. But Greece doesn’t accept to proceed to the rest without clearing first the fate of the 1st one. My guess is that this is also a matter of credibility. The Germans are saying at least since July 2007 (as the german article says) that Papanikolis is ready to be delivered. Greece says that the sub has problems. If Greece was to accept the 2nd sub, it before the 1st, its negotiating position would deteriorate. The Germans would not only say that we don’t want to pay, but also that their sub has indeed no problem, that’s why we accepted the 2nd one.

Just my thoughts, not an expert.

Regards.

P.S. : Or of course you can believe, that the Germans went on, paying 450 mln euros (more or less the price of 1 U214) from their own pocket, building the rest of the subs (3 more= 4x 450 mln), not minding that Greece wasn’t giving them a penny… It’s your choice.

How should the greeks pay for Rafale?
The Greeks has alone ~3 Mrd Euros debts at Thysen Krupp (U-114, Neptune 2 and Leo 2)!
http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/dokument/43/19/dokument.html?titel=Offene+Rechnungen&id=52109134&top=SPIEGEL&suchbegriff=&quellen=&vl=0

Has it occured to you that the Greeks just might have some reasons for not paying?

Your article is from July 2007. Now watch the parts in english of this greek documentary dated October 2007. It shows the *slight* inclination of the german U-214 sub, which arrived at 52 degrees. According to the retired now, Greek navy officer (sub commander, NATO attacheè in Naples) in the video, the Germans tried to correct the inclination by changing the location of 21 tons of weight, to no avail. The sub was also slow to surface. In the video it is also seen the HDW internal document where it is stated that the sea trials of the Germans at Bergen, were interrupted, to avoid the inclination exceeding acceptable limits.

To be noted also, that the fuel cells, are certified by Siemens up to inclinations of 45 degrees, after which, they can leak and produce poison gas. In the video is presented one such inclination as registered from the “Arianne” data registering system.

The German testing Captain of the sub who speaks in the video, refuses that they interrupted the sea trials , but the document says otherwise.

Also, the HDW President of Skaramanga Shipyards is making some very amusing remarks. The journalists says that in an interview to her at May 2007, he was categorically saying that the sub had no problems at all and was ready to enter service. But, curiously, in this October 2007 video, we have:

http://www.skai.gr/master_avod.php?id=62900

Journalist: “You do believe that there are some problems that need to be fixed?”

– President: “I believe some demands of the customer that go beyond the provvisions of the contract, are legitimate, because they are requests of the customer and as we always do, we follow the requests of the customer and we will do it by the way, at our own cost”.

-J: “This is totally different, because when i met you in May you told me there was no problem with the submarine and now i see your reply is totally different. You do believe that there was a problem?”.

-P : “No sorry, i really do appreciate your differentiation here, i am completely in line with what we have discussed earlier this year. This boat has not a problem at all, but there are minor problems, due to the fact that this is a prototype…”

Now, i don’t know how they call that in Germany, but in Greece it is called a contraddiction. If a sub has “no problems at all”, then it doesn’t certainly have “minor problems due to the fact that this is a prototype”.

Also note that he is using PRESENT TENSE, not PAST TENSE. This in OCTOBER 2007.

Now, the way i see it, the retired Greek officer has no gain to lie in this story. On the contrary, HDW , has a gain in blaming Greece for being “crazy” or “not wanting to pay for no reason”. Because it would be a blow to HDW’s reputation to admit otherwise. After all, it’s the word of a German against that of a Greek… Surely, the German must be saying the truth.

As for the Leo2, the payments were suspended, after it was discovered in the turret firing trials, that one 120mm shell penetrated frontally the turret. The tanks were sent back to the assembly line to have the armour upgraded at that point.

The payments have been released again, article from greek defence portal-magazine (use online translator if you want):

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4716&Itemid=47

The greek gov. released the payment of VAT tax which was pending (107 mln) plus 183 mln for the payment of 30-40 more tanks in which the addition of armour has been completed. Until now, 94 tanks have been delivered, oh which 29 with protocol of temporary acceptance (pending the addition of armor).

I have no idea whatsoever about the Neptune II program status, other than there it is off schedule and according to greek press, Germany has proposed to abort it for the remaining subs and instead buy more U214.

As for the supposed 3 bln that we owe, that is the German version of the story. The greek is that we have already paied 75-80% of the subs and the tanks that we have fully accepted. 3 bln must be the cost of the entire projects combined. In that case, i am amazed that the Germans are giving us 94 and counting tanks without having paid none… :rolleyes:

Also, if the HDW and Krauss Maffei feel that we are so bad clients, instead of having their reputation thrown into the mud, why don’t they pursue the deal legally and force to pay with interests? If their products had no problems as they claim, surely, they will make the greek goverment beg for mercy in a Court of Law, paying not only the interests but also damage for their trademark’s reputation…

On the other hand, maybe the german products didn’t deliver as promised after all and they use the newspapers in order to undermine the greek reasons against their products. In this way, the reputation of the subs and tanks , remains untouched (it was the Greeks’ fault).

Well, we will see if Greece has money for aircrafts, very soon. As well as for frigates, IFVs (announced in December) etc.

One thing is for sure. The Germans may be accusing the greek gov. not wanting their perfect products, but specially HDW, is going to “hear” from the greek gov too about this. Or should i say, NOT to hear, since everything shows that after this behaviour, the German frigates won’t even be considered in the upcoming greek programme.

Now, one is free to believe whatever he likes. This Mercedes has no problem at all. It only has some minor problems due to the fact that it is a prototype. Why don’t you want to buy it??!!! Because you don’t have money? 😀

Apparently German comrades don’t think we have money. While Russian tavarich does.

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20071210/91684719.html

And the French opened delegation in Athens to promote the FREMM frigate, followed by Sarkozy who made the exchange deal Mirage for Rafale. The Americans have also sent Super Bugs in Greece in the hope to make the surprise and sell them and an LM rep. said that they as company (the US gov is another story) have no problem in releasing Block 60’s AESA radar if Greece was to buy F16 again.

I am not going to comment further on this, i have seen again similar german articles in the internet. As far as i am concerned, the U214 deal is a copy of the “Colins class”, where at the end, Greece will unfortunately take the subs saying that “everything is ok” (like the Australian navy did) and God only will now how much of is true. My guess is that we will take them with a discount or some offsets of some kind and we will see a long time before we see german ships in the greek navy again, although de facto we will have to continue on the U214 line.

I am sorry for the Engineer Officer, at the end of the greek video who poor man is suffering when asked “when are you going to put your signature for acceptance?” and he replies “this is a question that i have no way to answer”.

Regards

Thanks for all the superb info. Anything else you’d like to share about HAF Corsair II ops would be great. I hope they keep them around for a while longer though with the recent buy of more boring Lawndarts, I fear that day might be sooner than latter……

Another question I have involves the AIM-9 on the A-7. Do HAF A-7’s use the rear-aspect AIM-9P only or can they use the AIM-9L or AIM-9M? (Do the F-4’s and F-16’s use all three variants of the weapon?)

Stunning picture of the Phantom by the way…….proof that even in 2007 nearly 50 years after the first flight of the prototype, she’s still got some teeth in her!

As Peter G said,A7 can carry only AIM-9 P4.The upgraded F-4E can carry even 9M (same of course for F16s).

Frankly,the only reason we keep still the Corsairs is because Turkey still keeps the non upgraded Rhinos.Numbers in other words.

As for the F4E,i was against the upgrade,but since we decided to go on with it,i think it was the most balanced upgrade possible.It got a decent radar which can allow it both decent AG capabilities with some newer weapons and use of AMRAAM and AIM-9M for self-defence.I think the turkish upgrade program,was too unbalanced,creating a “dedicated bomber” F4E,which can’t survive against BVR capable aircrafts and needs F16 escort.It’s a good reason of why we phased out F4 and are phasing out Corsair II.Our F4E,can shoot down a turkish F16 in BVR.In dogfight they will be lost,but IMHO they would have done much greater damage than their turkish counterparts before they perish.I mean,for us, a greek F4E that will shoot down even a single turkish F16 before going down,has much more value than for a turkish F16 to shoot down a greek F4E PI2000.

HAF A7 Part II

Sorry for the delay,since the other thread is closed,i reply to this post by Phantom II:

I know they are used for long-range strike, and in addition to unguided bombs, what other types of muntions are cleared? Is the Taurus fully operational?

Thanks

Pics would be great too! (tbzz…….)

I doubt the Taurus was ever certified,since nobody cared to do so.The greek A7 have been certified to carry AFDS (the free flight ancestor of Taurus) and Mavericks (as of course more traditional weapons,like Paveway,Durandal,cluster bombs etc).

Here with AFDS:

😮 😮 😮 OMG How is he still allowed to be playing football , he is an animal.Some of those tackles makes Keane’s agains Man City olayer look like a walk in the park 😮

I had the same reaction when a friend sent me the videos.I couldn’t beleive my eyes.Many do hard fouls,get red cards etc,but he seems to be completely non caring about who is in the field,seems to aim not at the ball ,but at the player,some are shockingly intentional and extremely dangerous,it’s like he is thinking that the other players are crash dummies and he is practiving alone.It is appaling how he isn’t disqualified by FIFA or something and how he was chosen for the national team of Italy!Didn’t they have any other more decent fella to put ?

Zidane is at fault and a sad end for his career,but i don’t want to immagine what Mr. Materazzi may have said during the game to Zidane,FIFA is against racism in theory,but i guess it doesn’t count unless they catch you.Maybe they should start putting small microphones on the players’ shirts,since they don’t want to free football fields from butchers.

IMO France deserved to win,there was a second penalty not given,not to mention the penatly that gave the victory to Italy against Australia…

All in all it was one of the worst competitions i remember,the World Champions,won against Australia (with a fraud penalty),Ghana (no comment),draw with USA and beating Germany (only real encounter) ,only to find France and again win because the 2nd penalty wasn’t given.

Zidane made a mistake to lose his temper,it must have been the tension of the final together with the fact that he was finishing his career and from what i read his mother was maybe at hospital?

Anyway,mistake for Zidane,will remain a stain ,but i must confess,Materazzi is a butcher,not a footballer and i am not surprised that he was the one that made Zidane lose it.It appears that Mr. Materazzi is an expert at being ” a nice person”.

You want REAL MORTAL COMBAT?Admire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpG4AHlZrL4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gyu8W1g2co&search=brutal%20soccer

Trojan horse? :diablo:

I don’t think they would fall for that.Maybe a giant wooden Ataturk’s statue would do the job though

Seriously,the Turk generals and politicians are not only brave,but also very compassionate.If you were to send your men in landing crafts to a bridgehead,what would you like them to find in the beach waiting for them?

This? (Cyprus style)

Or this?

So why not try demilitarize them first?It would save the lives of both Turk and Greek soldiers!They do it because they are humanists!