Flash news.Maybe a new crisis on the horizon.It appears that 3 Turks were arrested while taking photographs of the Souda naval base at Crete.The accuse would be espionage.According to some first information they would have some NATO relation or permission.
http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=710297&lngDtrID=244
P.S: @JJ6 : Please check your PM,you ll find something useful.
M2000 are painted with the “classical” 2-tone air superiority gray scheme of Dassault. Aegean blue were wearing F-4Es as Alepou cleared, and Mirage F1CGs during the most of their service period. Some of them wore also Aegean Ghost camo at their last years of service.
Well done Petros and thank you for clearing the mess i had in my head with the Mirage camos.In fact i wouldn’t have posted before you guys,but after a day from the question,the topic had gone in page 2 and thought that none of you was going to answer.
Cheers!
Hyperion
@Hyperion, 34 posts! 😮
Cheers,
Alepou 340MB :diablo:
I confess,i lost my temper with this incident and posted more than i would have expected.And i am not alone.In the latest poll:
http://www.skairadio.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_skaigreece_128_28/05/2006_154848
-64% says that Greece must block the turkish accession in EU and abbandon the “approachment” (=appeasement) policy.
-23,4% still is in favour of the support to the turkish european effort.
-12,5% doesn’t express an opinion.
-67% thinks that our goverment conceeds too much to the turkish positions.
-26% thinks that does not conceed too much.
What would greece do if turkey buys F-35’s? Go in for eurofighter? rafale? or russian 5th gen?
Greece is expected by 2008 to decide on which 4th gen fighter to order(probably Eurofighter).By the time Turkey will get the JSF (2012+),Greece will be operating 4th gen already.
It seems Greece is trying to draw the US into the squabble with Turkey by banning US flights.
Not necessarily.I don’t think Greece is in position to force the hand of USA to do anything she doesn’t want to.There are many factors to consider.Our Minister of foreign affairs has changed in the last month and is expected to have different approach on some matters.We will see.
After the collision,the goverment has been “under fire” by the opposition and there is a growing discontent among the population about the “appeasement” policy Greece has been following since 1999.In a tv transmission the under-segretary confessed that we renounced to our veto right repeatedly,allowing Turkey to become candidate and now to commence accession talks and we have seen no political gesture from the turkish part untill now.Today our minister of foreign affairs said that veto is always one of the greek cards.Of course i doubt that she will use it,because it would cause the wrath of the EU partners and Turkey’s of course,but it is indicative of the climate.
The US planes,according to greek news,took off from the carrier Enterprise,north of Crete (20 in number) and tried to contact the greek civil flights agency with no success,so they tried to contact Crete’s civillian airports tower.By that time greek fighters from Crete went to indentify them,Athens civil agency,in the mean time had to close that area to civil flights and diverge them to another corridor.When things were cleared and the situation explained the US aircrafts returned to Enterprise.
I don’t know if all this is true,but i think certain “freedoms” that the US flights may have had in Crete ,after the incident were “cut off”,both in order to satisfy pubblic opinion and maybe to send a message expressing our discontent to the US goverment.
Our MoD even said that “every turkish provocation will find suitable response from now on”.It’s more rhetoric than something precise,but the climate isn’t good.In Turkey elections come the next year,so the expectations are that Turkey will follow “patriotic” policy,which will mean nothing good.According to analysts,Turkey will refuse to apply the EU customs union protocol with Cyprus,which signed last summer and will continue to ban Cypriot ships and planes .This may trigger Cypriot veto in October.It is also characteristic that the second party in power in Turkey right now is the nationalistic “MHP” party,related to the “gray wolves”.And the appeasement policy in Greece,has made it possible for the first time,to a purely right wing-nationalist party to appear in polls steadily at about 4%,so in the next parliament should make it to pass the 3% limit.
The only logical explanation I could give to the obvious question, why NATO and US didn’t intervene to this ongoing debate is that both countries could serve as guards of Medeteranian against Russian forces. In case of a Russian attack they would have been forced to co-operate of course.
Today they have different roles but they still represent an impressive power in the region if one sees them as a unity, not as two argueing sides.
I suppose that NATO and US is happy to see these countries being exercised for war continuously.
Yes and there is also the less noble explanation,like this:
“This contract is great news for the F-16 team because it extends the production line another year and opens the door wider for additional international sales in the future,” said June Shrewsbury, F-16 programs vice president.
http://www.lmaeronautics.com/lmaerostar/feature-3.html
Without the greek purchase,the factory line was to be closed.The pressure from US to buy again F16 was very high,although HAF command since 2002 has asked for 4th gen. aircraft.
If the greek-turkish cold war was to end,what reason would there be for Greece to have F16,AH-64D,Mirage2000,SCALP EG,Patriot PAC3,Leo2A6,U214,Pzh2000 etc?
It is also not a coincidence that Greece in the past 10 years is moving away from US military hardware as much as POLITICALLY possible,since we saw that no matter how much money we will give USA,her pro-turkish policy won’t change.Personally i am glad,that since we have to continue this economic blunder,at least we give more of the money to EU countries and not to USA.
The turkish arsenal on the other side,is steadily in its vast majority made in USA.
Who else will buy these weapons?Weapons industries are already in crisis after the end of the cold war.Many had to merge with each other in order to survive.You should read greek press to see how hard they lobby each time there is a weapons competition.The main European countries produce their own hardware,while the lesser ones don’t care about having a serious army,and they do well not spending money in this period where there is no apparent threat to fight.So the main buyers of weapons,are Greece and Turkey in this continent.Greece has roughly 11 mil. population and yet has equipment that countries much bigger than her don’t have in Europe.This isn’t normal,but it is necessary for Greece and pleasant for those who sell the weapons.
Why would anyone want to lose such a precious arms market?For…moral reasons? 😀
When my airwing made a port call to Souda Bay in March of 2003 I took an MWR bus from the pier to NSA Souda Bay, now being my first time in Greece and Europe for that matter I did not now that Souda is an active HAF air base. I saw some T-33s parked out in the grass but what else is based out of Souda AB these days?? I have read that the Block 52+ F-16C are out of there? Also does the HAF still fly the A-7H? I live not 15 miles from where all the A-7s were built and curious to know. When I was on liberty in Chania I found a shop that had some HAF patches I bought them and had the number 115 and there rest was in Greek but it did have a silouette of an A-7. Soon I hope to make a 1/48 HAF F-4E, the paint schemes the HAF uses are quite attention getting (Agean Blue?)
AFAIK,115 Fighter Wing (F16 Block 52+) uses Souda AFB(main base) and Kastelli AFB(detachments).The HAF F16 that was involved in the collision the other day is supposed to have taken off from Souda.
Greece has A7E and H.I am not sure if both types still remain in service,but i think they do (at least one does).
HAF uses Aegean Blue (Mirage2000) and Aegean Ghost (F-16,F-4E PI2000).
Regards
Hyperion
Well, I don’t like to generalize, but is it just me, or has anyone noticed that esp in the British and American history, and somewhat less in French, they have tended to look only after their interests and did never care about their ‘allies’ or about respect. They used someone as much as they could, then when they were not needed they were ditched off. There are a million examples.
I am not just startin a flame war, but the example is here, that Greece fought 2 world wars with Britain/US, yet now they are made a second in this area because of the bigger interests in Turkey.
I understand other great powers like the Germans and Russians have ‘used and ditched’ others too but they seem to be much more respectful, which is perhaps why they didn’t get very far in history of wealth and expansionism as the other 3 have.
I wouldn’t be surprised if tommorow Greece left the NATO and US/Britain would care less…and when the time comes when US is no longer need Saudi Arabia, they will force democracy to knock on their doors and support overthrow of the kingdom, or……….i can go on..
There is no “friend” in foreign policy.Only profit.From USA i wouldn’t expect anything else.From the EU i would expect more,but even there,although on paper they “deplore turkish provocations” (like they write on the Imia resolution),when time comes to vote,nobody wants to damage his relations with Turkey and veto.This alone is enough to explain why the interest in Turkey:
Existing oil pipelines (One from Kirkuk that brings oil from Iraq and one from Baku bringing Caspian oil).The pipeline Baku-Ceyhan has the British BP as major shareholder.You expect Britain to support Greece?

Other Balkan pipelines.Through Greece should pass the Novorosisk-Burgas-Alexandroupolis pipeline (consorcium of Russian-Bulgarian-Greek companies):

When Rice came to Athens,she also said that the countries of the region should make themselves indipendent from Russian energy sources and routes.2 days later ,the 7 Bulgarian companies withdrew from the project and the pipeline is now pending in mid air.
For the same reason USA has made deal with Bulgaria to make military base at Burgas,from which both the US and the Russian oil route will pass…Also made a deal with Romania,you will find out why on the subsequent image that i will post.
On the contrary,US of A,to reply to that project,agreed the AMBO pipeline in 2004.For the same reason,USA 2 days after the American elections recognised FYROM as “Macedonia” and one month later signed with her the AMBO pipeline.6 days before the US elections,a member of the Hellenic American Institute was asking about it the State Dept,which replied to him that USA recognised that state as FYROM.As soon as they got the votes of the Greek Americans,2 days later they recognised “Macedonia” and then signed the pipeline deal.
The only other existing pipeline which could bring the Caucasus oil in Europe,was passing through Serbia,but of course it was prohibitive for USA,for obvious reasons.Well,after the attack on Serbia that route is gone too,so even worse for Russia.
Gas pipelines:

Do you now understand why on any day,USA and UK will support Turkey over Greece and Cyprus?And why EU is hesitant to do anything of PRACTICAL value ,coherent to the nice words of solidarity that once in a while the EU gives to Greece?
Greece will not leave NATO,because Turkey can then attack/provoke a border incident like in Imia and have the alliance to help her too.And CNN will be much more prone to support the turkish version that time.
Read and LAUGH:
EU-The common foreign and security policy: introduction
Article 11 sets out its five main principles:
* to safeguard the common values and fundamental interests of the Union;
* to strengthen the security of the Union;
* to preserve peace and strengthen international security;
* to promote international cooperation;
* to develop democracy and the rule of law, including human rights.
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/r00001.htm
Maybe if someone threatens with Casus belli one of the big boys of EU,THEN we will see it.
Regards
Hyperion.
According to an article in “TA NEA” greek newspaper,the turkish flight was expected by HAF and had aim to:
1)Locate the S-300 ,since they change positions frequently.
2)Provoke the reaction of the S-300 so to turn on their radar and “capture” its radar signature in the turkish threats library and study eventual jamming methods.This,because the S-300 have used various false emissions till now that made Turkey even more curious to have more data on them.
3)Fotographing the F-16 block 52+ bases.
Also refers that when Greece bought Russian SAMs,both Turkey and USA made heavy protests towards Greece,each for different reasons (Turkey because a serious threat arrived and USA because doesn’t want Russia to get into the weapons market of NATO countries).
Source from HAF said that very soon the S-300 will be incorporated in the Greek common defence radar network,despite the US reactions that halted untill now the connection between Russian and western systems.The connection will be done by Greek company which is NATO certified and will be used through proxy,so that the western and Russian systems won’t be in direct link against them.
I will also post this,since now it has been showed in pubblic in Mega Channel’s Tv transmission “Fakeloi” by Alexis Papahelas and i think it is useful.During a casual visit of the journalist to the Greek Airforce Tactical Command at Larissa,10 interceptions occured.This is the image of the screen of one of those (the thin red line is of course the greek-turkish border which also coincides with the Athens FIR limits):
First,the “red” (turkish) flight enters Athens FIR.Blues are Greek AF fligths,gray are CIVILLIAN flights.You will notice that the turkish flight has to pass from the routes that the gray-civillian aircrafts have.This explains how the Egypt Air pilot saw the incident the other day.And according to Turkey Greece shouldn’t follow Eurocontrol procedures but let them fly wherever they like:

This in the moment where a HAF flight intercepts the turkish flight:

To continue,this is from the Turkish local convergence and implementation plan of Eurocontrol procedures:

Signed ALSO by the Turkish Chief of AIR DEFENCE Brigadeer General Dinciyurek:


Now,WHY would the Turk Chief of Air Defence need to sign Eurocontrol procedures,that are then accepted by Eurocontrol’s Mr. Philipp ,if Eurocontrol according to Turkey shouldn’t have to say anything about Military flights?Another mystery…
And acording to the reporter,this is a Turkish map,showing the neighbouring Eurocontrol States,but apparently doesn’t show Greece:
A suspicious person could think that this is always part of the turkish coherent policy of disputing the Athens FIR.But it could also be that the turkish authorities simply “forgot” that on their west there is also Greece,also part of ECAC.
Best regards
Hyperion
I must admit I am a layman to the long standing differences between Greece and Turkey but I have to ask why would one NATO member allegedly launch an armed reconnissance mission over another NATO members territory?
Ah,i suppose you didn’t read the earlier posts.Well,when you have the distinct possibility to enter a war with your neighbour,having intelligence about his defences and systems is logical.
One should post again one by one the Aegean “disputes”…I certainly can’t ,i am exhausted…
If you have time ,read my previous posts and when you see “Casus belli” ,if your latin is weak,read as “cause of war”.Turkey has Greece under threat of war to make it simple.
This discussion is becoming political so this will be my last post in this thread. However this Greece/Turkey issue reminds me of the border dispute between Norway and Russia. It seems to me that Norway nowadays gets little support from the US/NATO against Russia? Could it be that Russia is an more important ally in the war against terrorism?
I m not sure about russian contribution in the war on terrorism,but it’s certainly more profitable pleasing the russian positions than those of Norway.Also consider that currently Europe depends on large part on the russian gas sources.
And you reminded me to stop posting too.For a lurker today is like an overdose.I have to come back to my senses .
Hyperion, I don’t think the US are pressuring the EU to accept Turkey just to please Turkey and to annoy Greece, but because they expect it to divide/disrupt the EU even more than it is now.
Nic
Certainly it is not because they want to annoy Greece.That is just a collateral damage.Foreign policy of superpowers is made cynically and with profit in mind,not emotions.What you suggest is,yes,a possibility.Turkey,and in particular the army,are traditionally close to USA and with all probability,once in the EU,Turkey will allign herself with Britain (this explains why Britain also lobbies so hardly and why France is against).
These are the UN resolutions for Cyprus (oh yes,they are THAT many):
http://www.un.int/cyprus/resolut.htm
example:
# Calls upon all states to respect the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and non-alignment of the Republic of Cyprus and to refrain from all acts and interventions directed against it;
# Urges the speedy withdrawal of all foreign armed forces and foreign military presence and personnel from the Republic of Cyprus and the cessation of all foreign interference in its affairs;
http://www.un.int/cyprus/Res3212GA.htm
1.Records its formal disapproval of the unilateral military actions undertaken against the Republic of Cyprus;
2.Urges the parties to comply with all the provisions of previous resolutions of the Security Council, including those concerning the withdrawal without delay from the Republic of Cyprus of foreign military personnel present otherwise than under the authority of international agreements;
http://www.un.int/cyprus/scr360.htm
4. Urges the Turkish Cypriot side and Turkish forces to rescind without delay all remaining restrictions on UNFICYP, and calls on them to restore in Strovilia the military status quo which existed there prior to 30 June 2000;
http://www.un.int/cyprus/Res1568GA.htm
4. Expresses concern at the further continuing violations by the Turkish Cypriot side and Turkish forces at Strovilia and urges them to restore the military status quo which existed there prior to 30 June 2000 ;
http://www.un.int/cyprus/sc1517.htm
^This because they STILL try to make small advancements in the UN buffer zone.
And so according to Rice ,Cyprus must not stand on the path of Turkey in EU.Of course,Turkey is not Saddam!If it was Saddam,now Condolencia would be screaming for attack against him.
Hyperion, is it true that the US is currently more friends with Turkey than Greece because they consider Turkey more important in the war against terrorism (ie letting USAF use Turkish bases during the invasion of Iraq)?
Of course.Among Greeks,in case of war,the hope isn’t for USA to come and help us,but to LEAVE US fight it ALONE!
You can do a google search about how hard USA lobbies for Turkey to become EU member.In the 90s there was official report calling Turkey “Pillar State of the US foreign policy”,not only because it was giving Incirlik base to attack Iraq,but also because it is the only NATO country in “direct” (through sea) contact with Russia and later because Turkish-Israeli relations have bloomed,starting a close military cooperation,trainning etc,in a neighbourhood where ALL other countries are hostile to Israel.
Anyway,in April Rice had the courage to come to Athens and say:
Rice, on a five-day visit to Europe and Iraq, told journalists in the Greek capital on Tuesday that Cyprus should not stand in the way of Turkey’s bid to join the European Union.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/04/26/greeks_cypriots_slam_rice_comments_on_turkey/
Of course she didn’t go to Cyprus to say so,because maybe she wouldn’t leave at 100% of her health.
Attacked the British Radar Station at Troodos for starters (was a mistake on the Turkish Hun pilot’s part however, attacked the wrong mountain). Lightning pilots saved his ass however, as they stopped 112 Squadron putting a big ‘Sharksbite’ on the F-100 with what would have been the first and only operational firing of a Bloodhound 2 SAM by getting in the way (The 56 Sqn Lightning pilot is reputed to have done a barrel roll around the F-100 to get his attention). Another thing that has to be remembered about the Cyprus Invasion was the reason for it, 😮 the massacre of Turk Cypriots by EOKA years before and the Greek Coup on the Island 5 days before the Turks hit the beach. (Also note that British SBA became the home of a lot of Greek refugees, post the invasion) 😮
I don’t want to come into detail about the British role in Cyprus,there are several documents circulating in newspapers like the NATO dispatch sent from the British bases that if greek airplanes try to overfly the british bases in their flight towards Cyprus,they will be shot down.Without entering much in detail or using greek sources,this is indicative:
UK’s murky role in Cyprus crisis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4632080.stm
Anyway,The Turk Cypriots also had their killers,the “TMT”.Things in 1974 were quite calm though untill the coup happened,encouraged by Kissinger to overthrow Makarios ,who was deemed a philo-communist ,since he didn’t want to join NATO and had relations with Russia.Read the UNFICYP report and you ll see that both sides had their extremists:
http://www.unficyp.org/history/hist_ops_until_74.htm
Cyprus was the last UK base in the eastern med after the loss of Suez and couldn’t be lost.So instead of granting complete independence or allow the join to Greece as was called for in a referendum (82% were GreekCypriots ),they made a Conistution that could never work,with vetoes in everything,crisis came,nationalism rose,Turkey wanted “Takism” (division) because a Greek Cyprus would be dangerous for her strategic interests,someone set oil on some extremists of the 2 sides,UN peacekeepers came in the middle,the rest happened in 1974.Turkey intervened as garantor of the Constitution,but in reality to achieve takism ,violated repeatedly UN ceasefires and continued the operation for a month untill caught 40%,although the coupist gov and thus restoration of the Constitution happened a few days after the invasion.