And last addition to the Imia crisis,because it is the worst and gravest ,since it has to do with land,not air or water.

As CNN says,Imia is at near 4 nm from the Turkish coast.

Now read the Lausanne treaty (as the EU parliament did):

ARTICLE 12.
…Except where a provision to the contrary is contained in the present Treaty, the islands situated at less than three miles from the Asiatic coast remain under Turkish sovereignty.

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html

Now YOU or ANYONE else ,please explain me how can an island at more than 3 nm from the Turkish coast can be disputed by Turkey (and later 149 more).

Again, I must admit I´m no expert on this topic, still I know that SFOR and KFOR troops in the Baclans and Afghanistan include non NATO members (such as Sweden). My impression is that the role of NATO is getting is getting more blurred?

You are right.Both KFOR and SFOR have UN mandate because labelled peacekeeping operations.The purely NATO operation was the attack on Serbia.

I´m not an expert on this Greek-Turkish problem but, I´ve got two questions:

How come the US and NATO let this ongoing conflict continue without a solution in the near future? A conflict between two NATO-allies? Is NATO really that weak?

Does the Turkish government really belive that Turkey can be admitted as a member of the EU and still keep behaving like this?

The answer is simple in both questions.Greece and Turkey are the best customers of war industries both in USA and Europe.

In addition,USA has strategic interestes in the Middle East that makes Turkey her favourite “child”.On greek TV a NATO spokesman was asked about the incident and his reply was “Oh,these are Greek and Turkish problems,not NATO problems”.

As for the EU,the same interests that want Turkey in the EU,close their eyes to certain realities and limit the EU’s reply to “whishing,hoping” etc.EU mentions the “wish” of going to Hague since 1996 according to the turkish link,but doesn’t FORCE Turkey to recognise the Court.Turkey is a HUGE energy hub (of both oil and gas pipelines) that EU wants to take under its influence.This makes other things seem details.

Have you ever seen how many UN resolutions exist against Turkey on Cyprus and what they say?They are more than those against Saddam and since 1974 they ask for withdrawal of the occupation troops and territorial integrity.Yet the last farse-plan presented by Annan and written by UK-USA predicted the indefinite presense of turkish troops.Is this normal???.Why does the EU let such a country open negotiations while Greece and Cyprus are EU members?For the reasons i just explained and for the fact that in Europe people don’t know much about these disputes because there aren’t political interests to promote them.All Europeans care only about Israel-Palestine.What happens in their own court yard is irrelevant.Just look at this thread for God’s sake.NOBODY has made up his mind on who is in the legal side and who is the aggressor???NOBODY???And then you ask why cynical politicians in Europe or NATO don’t care?Isn’t it obvious?When even the simple European citizen that should have more morality and ideals doesn’t care,what do you expect???

Greece till 1999 was blocking various funding protocols the EU was giving to Turkey and our EU “partners” were breaking our balls (escuse my expression but i can’t hold it anymore) because we were making it hard for Turkey to come to the EU.Finally we were tired to fight our own partners and hope in a miracle…

EU Parliament after the Imia crisis in 1996 passed this voting(PLEASE read the text in the link):

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT

Adopted by a vote of 342 for, 21 against, 11 abstentions on February 15, 1996

on the provocative actions and contestation of sovereign rights by Turkey against a Member State of the Union

http://www.hri.org/MFA/foreign/bilateral/europ.htm

Can YOU explain me how can the same union accept Turkey now while the dispute is still valid and has even been extended to 150 greek islands?

“Common european values,common european identity” bla bla bla and green horses.

The only values there are are MONEY.Turkey is Europe’s China,full of low cost industries that produce EU goods and and a huge energu hub that brings to Europe gas and oil and thus of much more strategic importance than anything else.

According to EU Turkey is ready to enter the union in 10 years (2015) because she has fullfilled the Copenhagen criteria for democracy,economy and political rights.

DO these things appear NORMAL to you ???

1)Turkey’s ruling party to sue 82-year-old over attack on policy
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=122900

2)AKP official arrested for chewing gum at ceremony
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=41734

3)Turkish citizen sentenced 1 year 2 months in egg-throwing incident
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4254934.asp?gid=74

These fullfill the Copenhagen criteria???Are we loonies???

Do you know how Cyprus became EU candidate?Greece at the time had to VETO Turkey’s Customs union with EU in order to achieve the candidate state for Cyprus.The European partners were so eager to do business with Turkey,that accepted Cyprus within a few months.And look at it.Cyprus,the victim,had to become candidate with a greek veto.Turkey,the aggressor,is accepted with arms open wide.

Enough for me,cause something is spinning from my nerves and it’s not proper to say what.

Sahin,i know the turkish position and already answered.If you are so certain for your legal arguments,then please,proceed,as a civilised country you are and go the UNCLOS and/or Hague and settle this out with according to Law.

If your position is legal,then you have nothing to fear from Courts.Greece has recognised the Hague’s decisions as BINDING since 1993.We are waiting for you.

I ve nothing more to add.I ve seen this film before.

You need to post more Hyperion you have some great info.
Also you wouldn’t like to stop posting now on 13 post, it’s unlucky!

Bravo!

Cheers,
Alepou 340MB

“Your journey from lurker to regular poster is almost complete!” < Insert evil laughter >

OK,then i post this to make my posts 14 😀 Dear Alepou,Fantasma,Icarus ( i quote you 3 because you are old forum members and i have read for years your posts) and other Greeks.The reason i don’t post is simple.I have lost faith or hope that these discussions in an internet forum bring to some useful result.You have been telling the same things over and over for years with the same turkish forum members and the same other countries’ members as bystanders that stand and watch eating their pop corn.

What was the result?Did you see any change of mind in any of them?I haven’t…Do you need to torture yourselves to death in such discussions just to know the turkish positions?I think we all know them just by a short visit to the turkish ministry of foreign affairs.

inThe Turks won’t change their minds.Whatever their political/military establishment presents them as right,then it must be so.Have you seen Papahelas’ “Fakeloi” where they say that our civillians burnt Smyrni?Do you remember when they convinced them that we blew up Ataturk’s house in order to provoke the pogrom?No need for flight plans,Greece has 10 nm airspace instead of 6nm water (true,but if it wasn’t for our civilised-mannered neigbour this paradox wouldn’t exist,since we would have 12-12nm),from 1996 suddenly there are 150 disputed greek islands,the greek islands shouldn’t have continental shelf because the turkish one would be too small,ALL greek eastern Aegean islands should be “demilitarized” while in the Lausanne Treaty there is a completely different settlement,which doesn’t suit the turkish plans of course,the half greek FIR should be turkish,the eastern half greek SAR zone should be turkish and so on.Tell this to a baby boy and he will reply to you “Turks want the eastern aegean islands,right?”(Right).

All the above “disputes”,have one thing in common.They are all on the left side of the greek-turkish maritime border.Because Turkey,like another post-WWII Germany,feels lack of “vital space”,which in her view is the Aegean.The sea exits towards North and South aren’t enough.And since the geography in the Aegean is uncomfortable and Greece isn’t an unarmed country like Cyprus so to risk to take them by force,since 1974 prefers to use the eastern half of the Agean as under effective turkish control.The 1996 dispute of the invention of the 150 islets is the top of this piramid.These apparently innocent,useless islets,would serve Turkey to increase her waters and airspace in the Aegean creating “corridors” between greek controlled waters.Turkey cannot make peace with her history that she lost the Aegean islands in the Balkan wars.So,since she doesn’t attempt to take them back,the only solution is to try anything to keep as much operational control over the Aegean as she can.This includes impeding Greece from applying the Law of the Sea,since the International waters would be cut down.As if the International waters were turkish property or as if there was some law that says that there MUST be always international water between islands.
Either way you look at it,the solutions can only be:

1)Agreement through arbitration or judgement in International Courts like Hague or UNCLOS.Unfortunately ,untill Turkey refuses to recognise them,this way is impossible to follow.
2)War.For Turkey is probably a vital option ,in case of a good political opportunity.This is why is prefered over the 1st option and used through the casus belli.The only reason why IMHO has not happened since 1974,is because of the greek military force that has acted as credible deterrence in these decades to give the message to Turkey that an eventual small territorial gain,would cost her much more politically,economically and in terms of social cohesion (think of the reaction if Turkey was to suffer a big defeat in a battle with the internal struggle between secularists and islamists or if the Kurds were to be armed-for real just for a change-by Greece).And of course the fact that Greece doesn’t think that it’s worth to destroy the country for 6 extra nm of water just because we live next to a country that only law that knows is the one of the gun and sword.
3)Bilateral agreement.It would be good,but unlikely due to the distance of the respective positions and the high nationalism in both countries,but more in Turkey,that would accuse the political leader of treason.There have been numerous bilateral low profile discussions untill now,they have led nowhere.

Since i don’t beleive anymore in the attempt to discuss with the Turks or the possibility to “educate-democratise-civilise” them ,as our goverments say since 1999 that we decided to let Turkey become EU candidate,i see no reason to post ,other than in special occasions like that.For everyday military news ,you are much more qualified to do so than me anyway.Since 1999 we have seen absolutely NONE step of good will from the turkish side.Our goverments keep saying to us “patience,we will not apply veto against Turkey this time either,because we are in favour of their modernization process”.Well,personally i have lost my patience waiting.This is bringing us nowhere.Simply,at the end Turkey will become EU member and the disputes will be still there with us.

I also find this forum as a miniature of the real world and our european “partners”.Look at this topic.3000+ clicks,and what do you see?As always,the usual Greeks and Turks fighting each other over the dead body of a pilot.Was his flight right or was he wrong?Did he crash on a turkish plane as Ankara says or did he not?

The rest of our esteemed forum members,from the other countries,remind me of the other countries that just watch and see and do nothing ,because they don’t want to ruin their relations with Turkey for their own reasons-profits,a bit like Pontius Pilate.Then in various EU cerimonies you hear about “Acquis communitaire”,of “European Constitution” and an ironic smile comes to my face.Do you other Greeks recall when we had to give BATTLE in Brussels to include a paragraph into Turkey’s accession record mentioning the need of good neighbouring,using peaceful means etc?Or the pressure and revenge from other EU states in pre-1999 years every time we were blocking the EU money flow to Turkey?So what is the point of posting?

-The Turks won’t change their minds.If they saw God from one side telling them to look at their arguments and Ataturk from the other side telling them that their arguments are right,they would believe Ataturk.

-For the non-Greeks,non-Turks ,it is just another mess between these “two who always fight”.At best someone could tell “why don’t you stop fighting and find a solution talking?”.There is no difference for them between aggressor and victim.It is like saying to the sheep “why don’t you talk to the wolf”?.If i am not mistaken only one non Greek has posted an opinion about this.For the rest,we are an interesting news story to read while sipping their coffee and if something goes wrong,they will run to their televisions to learn who is right,like in 1996 that CNN,Newsweek and the rest came up with titles “Greeks and Turks at the brink of war over 2 goat islets that Greeks call Imia and Turks call Kardak”.The only thing the foreigners care about is doing their business.After all this greek-turkish cold war is convenient to any country that sells weapons.Then often you see in various fora some of our european parners complaining about Greece that is always a net recipient of EU funds.If their goverments were interested in the UN charter,the EU regulations and common decency,they would have set as requirement for Turkey to resolve in Court her problems with Greece and Turkey before entering in negotiations.Greece would spend much less in defence and thus require much less from the EU funds.But the same goverments that complain are those who sell the weapons to Greece and recycle the money that gave as funds,so no harm done and why anger Turkey?

How many times must one post the UNCLOS,the SAR zones,the Treaty of Lausanne 1923,the various maps that show Imia as greek, etc to make a difference?How many times at least you 3 have done it in all these years?What has changed?Did the Turks change?No.Did you see the foreigners give even a moral support in this or another forum?They just read and think “Ah,Greeks,Turks,they are all alike and crazy to me,cool pics they post though”.One would think they ‘d have to pay to say “Fantasma,Icarus,Alepou,for what good may do RIP for your pilot and you have my sympathy for your country’s problems”.Did you see anyone say anything about the casus belli against Greece?Don’t you think that after these years you post about it ,they know it?They don’t care,just like their goverments don’t.

One thing a Greek must always keep in mind,that history taught us many times,since the ancient times.We can only count on ourselves and we MUST only count on ourselves and simply HOPE that others (especially USA) won’t be involved if anything happens with Turkey.All the times that we hoped for a foreign support,we got slaughtered (pre-revolution attempts,return of King and change of Entente countries because of this which led to the 1922 disaster etc).

Good strength continuing these daily arguments with our turkish friends (xara sto kouragio sas),i will post again,if i have something useful to say that hasn’t been said already by you.

I decided to post this time ,for the only reason that i didn’t want the sacrifice of our pilot to be presented as in vane in an illegal -according to Turkey- action.Our pilots have the biggest part of the merit,if since 1974 we haven’t followed the fate of Cyprus.Their quality ,together with the economical sacrifices of the Greeks to keep always a numerical balance and a quality lead in equipment have kept Greece still intact untill now,nothing else.Our pilots fight this undeclared war, so that the rest of us can stay at homes without fighting it too.I was pleasantly surprised today to read that our Parliament decided to take care of the economic expenses of raising the 2 children of our dead pilot.It is the only relief i could find in this event.

I think my post,because of its length, could be counted as 2 ,so i should have 15 now 😀

Best Regards,
Hyperion

P.S:In another forum i saw a poster quoting a previous post of mine saying that was posted by JJ6.I just wanted to clear any eventual misunderstanding,that i am not JJ6 and don’t use double nicknames in the same forum.I am not a troll.

Q: Since you have recognized the Athens FIR a few moments ago so-called something which has been granted to Greece via the (inaudible) Convention, I wonder, do you recognize the Athens FIR? And number two, what is the relation between DoD and (inaudible)?

A: By using the term so-called, I was using that to give its full name. The FIR is called the flight information region. I didn’t mean to minimize its importance in any way. But our policy towards the FIR is unchanged. We recognize that as a commercial flight zone that does not apply to military flights. U.S. military flights I should say.
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/1997/t12111997_t1211asd.html

Some observations:

1)First he says that does not apply to military flights.Then he continues:

A: I’m not sure I understand the question, but when NATO exercises take place and Turkish and U.S. planes are flying together, or U.S. and Greek planes are flying together, or planes from the three countries are flying in exercises, we do follow standard NATO operational procedures for notifying air control authorities.

I would be curious to know how exactly he intends to notify the “air control authorities”.

2)The US policy doesn’t make it the legal policy.USA uses the ADIZ which ironically requires flight plans:

This area, which is almost exclusively over water, serves as a national defense boundary for air traffic. Any aircraft that wishes to fly in or through the boundary must file either a Defense Visual Flight Rules (DVFR) flight plan or an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan before crossing the ADIZ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone

Interception procedures:
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0506.html

I see some inconsistency between what USAF wants the others to do in her home and what she wants to do in other people’s homes?

BTW,ADIZ is completely ARBITRARY,there is no such term in any international treaty for the existance of such zones.They exist simply because they suit US needs and defence and they are strong enough to enforce them.So,i cannot accept the US behaviour as the legal behaviour or as example for the greek or turkish one.

3)USAF can follow the policy she thinks best.In Europe,there is Eurocontrol,Greece is part of it and follows Eurocontrol’s policy ,not USAF’s policy.Eurocontrol says for military flights to give flight plans,Greece is applying it in the greek area of responsibility.

How many 209’s have been sold. French had their daphne and agosta . Russian kilo class may give competition in numbers. The type-209s are very limited subs due to their inability to fire missiles.

The type 209 not only can fire missiles (after upgrade) ,but also take AIP (the hull is cut after the conning tower and the AIP section is inserted and then reassembled all together).Greece has upgraded in the 90s 4 209/1100 with sub-Harpoon capability (among other things) and is currently putting AIP to 3 209/1200.It has proven to be one of the most versatile submarines ever made.