Merci Toan! You convinced me! The big minus IMHO for the Rafale is the lack of the HMD. But, i am always more convinced that for non stealth AFs, the best “antidote” for F35, is IR missiles, like the MICA IR. And in close range, according to the infamous RAND report, the F35 will have trouble even against F16. Rafale is rated better in WVR too, but lacks the HMD.

The EF is better platform, but worse weapons system in BVR and as “multirole”, dominates in WVR, but costs too much for what it delivers, which is also too late IMHO.

I have copy-pasted your post to a greek forum. I think it is a very good chronological summary of the situation.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Hello again. I have a question for our French friends. After reading a lot around, i have come to the conclusion, that because of the delay of the order, the price tag on the EF isn’t worth it anymore, since it will come to service almost identically with the F35. And since we must be careful where to spend money, right now i would prefer yet another batch of F16s and later F35, OR, in case of a european aircraft, Rafale for the reason that is cheaper and uses MICA IR.

My question is exactly about MICA IR. Is there any reliable info, from french sources, on what can be the range that a Rafale can shoot a MICA IR, using the OSF? I mean, without relying on radar and assuming that doesn’t need to wait for positive identification because an AWACS will provide that info.

Can the Rafale shoot a MICA IR to a target visible in the IRST, even if it’s still a very “small” target, if it knows that it’s the enemy? To put it more simply, a Rafale detects on the OSF a “hot dot”, which still is too far away to identify positively, but an AWACS or ground radar gives that info to the Rafale. Can the Rafale “slave” (lock) the MICA IR to that “dot” and shoot? If yes, is there any info about the approximate range?

And

2) What is the supposed increased detection range of OSF2 compared to OSF and can OSF 2 be included in an order within 2012?

Thank you.

Should be fine as long as the production units are rolling when HAF procures their fighter. Until then, a production-representative development unit should suffice.

I would paraphrase this, into “It should be fine, as long as the Dassault, commits to be able to deliver the new radar, as the production units are rolling when HAF procures the fighter.”

I mean, i can’t know how HAF does the evaluation, but when they will be putting the “scoring points” for each aircraft, i can’t imagine that they will be putting 2 scores for the Rafale with 2 different radars. The logical thing, is that HAF has requested from Dassault, the “final and best configuration of the Rafale” that Dassault is in position to deliver by the date that HAF wants.

Further developments, beyond that date, can’t be examined as “current”, but will be put in the “future developments”.

Because theoretically, the EF can come up with a Caesar prototype too, but can the EF consortium put it in the production line for HAF aircrafts by the time HAF will want?

Regards and have a nice vacation.

P.S. : Just for the fun of it, for the first time, in a greek forum, a member who claims he has “inside info”, said that “off the record” he was told that the Rafale will be the next HAF aircraft (meaning apart the exchange deal). It’s a change! To this day, all others with “inside info” were giving the EF done deal. Well, if Rafale does make the surprise, i know who to believe in the future for having good “inside info” and not just BS. 🙂 One thing is sure, that you can’t trust anyone at this point. But, in the meantime, Rafale fans can cheer up a bit. 🙂

Speaking of how the aircrafts are REALLY selected…

Eurofighter, Rafale Refuse to Play in New Dutch Evaluation

Posted by Joris Janssen Lok at 7/4/2008 2:39 AM CDT

The Netherlands is launching another evaluation of potential alternatives to the Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) — but the companies behind two of them (Eurofighter and Dassault Aviation) have turned down the Dutch request to provide updated information on their Typhoon Batch 3 and Rafale F4, respectively.

Dutch state secretary for defense procurement Jack de Vries has told Parliament, one day before it departed for its two-month summer recess, that he “hopes to visit the manufacturers of the Eurofighter and the Rafale in the near future to convince them of the importance of an updated contribution to the new evaluation.”

The Dutch embarked on a course to become full partners in the development of the F-35 as early as 1996-97, and selected the F-35A as the “best aircraft for the best price” after a brief evaluation of other potential F-16 replacement fighters in 2001-2002.

Recently, however, there has been growing concern, particularly among left-wing and populist parties in the Dutch Parliament, about JSF cost overruns.

In May, the Parliament called for a new evaluation as part of a compromise that enabled the defense ministry to proceed with a plan to order its first two F-35A aircraft for participation in the F-35 Initial Operational Test& Evaluation that starts in 2011.

Late last week, de Vries already told Parliament that he refuses to include Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin’s F-22A Raptor in the new evaluation, even though Parliament had directly asked him to do so (see stories published on AviationWeek.com and in the July 2 issue of Aerospace Daily & Defense Report).

Saab’s Gripen Next Generation (JAS 39E/F), however, is being incorporated in the evaluation, along with the Advanced (Block 60+) F-16E/F from Lockheed Martin, Rafale and Typhoon

According to de Vries, manufacturers are being given 60 days to respond to the Dutch request for updated information, but he admits that initially, Dassault and Eurofighter have “reacted negatively” to the Dutch RFI.

Dassault and Eurofighter sources say they feel that the Dutch have in fact already taken a decision to go forward with the F-35, and that the evaluation is nothing more than window dressing.

According to the Dutch defense ministry, the evaluation will be fair as it will involve “independent analysts” from Dutch defense research institute TNO Defense, Security and Safety; the country’s National Aerospace Laboratory (NLR); and RAND Europe.

However, both NLR and TNO are involved in a major way in JSF development work.

In addition to that, the Netherlands has invested $800 million in JSF System Development and Demonstration; more than 70 Dutch companies are involved in the program (with over $700 million worth of orders received so far); and Dutch industry business over the life of the JSF is forecasted to be worth more than $10 billion (significantly more than the cost of the F-35 program to Dutch tax payers).

The Dutch intend to procure up to 85 F-35As (although this number may yet be reduced to less than 60), including two test aircraft and one or two batches of series-production JSFs planned to enter service from 2014, with the first Dutch F-35A squadron officially planned to reach initial operational capability in 2015 (more realistically, 2016).

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a9c72418b-54a3-4e3c-a2a0-4bfc5070d377&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

@Hyperion & Sens,
could we please stick back to topic, I notice that a lot of threads become Turkey vs Greece here or at least something like that. I don’t think it’s really the right place to discuss these issues here.

I am sorry, the moderators can delete all my posts here actually, it’s fine with me.

To my defence, i only spammed about Greece vs Turkey in 2 threads, this one and the one about the Rafale and not talking about Turkey, is like being in 1980 talking about the next US aircraft, without talking about what Russian planes it will go up to. After all, why do we buy the EF or Rafale in the first place?

In the future, i will try to spam only in HAF threads. Not that i intend to bother you with my presence as often as i did in the last week.

EDIT: I actually found out that even after a day, one can delete his own posts. So, i deleted mine, you can enjoy a less “crowded” thread.

Regards

P.S. : I wonder where all the other Greeks have gone.

What??? There was a Greece vs Turkey thing and I’ve missed? OMG!!!11

Don’t worry mate, nothing new for you, you know that. Until the next time!

So HAF wants F-16 Block 70 (F-16GR)???

Well, even if such a block70 existed, i doubt we would take it. The fact that the Block 52+ are stationed in Crete though, isn’t casual.

Consider that for both EF and Rafale, CFTs have been already tested.

IMHO, the HAF study of tactics against the F35 will also play a major role. If for example HAF says “Listen, there is no way we can use EF against F35 without sending all the pilots to suicide mission”, then, we MAY see an F16 purchase, again, just to pay less money now and save them for a F35 purchase later.