P.S. : You know the most common way of bribery in Greece (and without getting directly involved)? This was never proved, but it’s what we enthusiasts suspect, comparing prices of what we bought with what others paid for the same product.

You are Dassault and want to bribe. You don’t go to the greek minister who is only 1 in the KYSEA and anyway he doesn’t have the ability to explain to the others inside the KYSEA why your plane is better than the other, because he is an amateur. The Chief of Staff is much better in doing that and the same the representative of the Bureau, who has the army evaluation. Also those that bring in the KYSEA the political arguments, are the PM, and the foreign minister. The minister of economics wants the cheapest. The minister of defence, is best in saying “what’s best for deals for the local industry”.

Instead, what’s best to do. You go and sign cooperation with HAI and most other companies you can find (Intracom, Miltech, Theon, etc). Your offer will predict “increased cost of work” for these companies. In reality, the “extra” money for these companies, will serve to finance the political party that is in goverment (exactly like Siemens did). Between general, european, and regional elections, you can “fund” quite a lot the political campaigns. In this way, you bribe the whole party through greek companies. Not just one member of the KYSEA, and you increase vertically your chances. Of course, the competitor may outbid you, bribing more the greek defence companies that on their turn will “help” the electoral campaigns.

That’s the ticket! Of course you can’t sell garbage or make a blatantly awful deal, or the opposition will be alerted and using the newspapers that are in its favour, may try to expose you (in Greece there are too many scandal-hunters reporters, that are dedicated into exposing the scandals of the opposite political party and they have many “connections”).

Oh, the best part about it. Funding political parties in Greece for the elections, may be illegal. BUT, it’s a much more light offense, compared to bribing a minister to take a tender. Especially, if you prove that in deed, the money were for the electoral campaign. SO, even if you are exposed (like Siemens), the conseguences are much more soft for both you and the political party. Of course, in the process, you can try to increase your chanced even more, by helping financially the minster himslef. But you are running a bigger risk if exposed.

With the name of the minister involved in a bribery, with the details of the transfert ? How strange it might sound, the very fact that nobody sued these reporters is revelant.
But, but we are getting away of the topic.

Look, i don’t trust any greek politician, but when companies lose their tenders, they always blame the others. Please google for alleged briberies of politicians and you will find articles from all over the world. You think that these newspapers got sued? And greek politicians only care when it comes to something that blows up on their face in the greek press. Anyway, can you please give me a link to a french article to see who exactly was the brother in law of the greek MoD and what were the details?

according to Dassault, LM and the aerospace journalist, the end was very sudden.

I cannot comment on what someone thinks as sudden.

By 25% ?
That argument is in total opposition with the next move “no money for fighters but we would like to buy the most expensive of all”

Here we go again… What’s the current Gripen offer compared to the EF? I would bet it is over 25% in discount. This means we have to buy it? Again, please, read what i wrote. BTW, did Dassault actually propose Rafale F1 to Greece back to 1999? Cause i can’t remember this.

It isn’t simply an economic issue. There are too many factors. Also, the next move wasn’t “we buy the most expensive of all”. We bought F16s (twice) and Mirage 2000-5.

Also, since you had such a powerful weapon to blackmail the goverment, why did you wait for the goverment to announce pubblically that we chose Eurofighter??? This may be binding the current gov still. You blew up your blackmail weapon! If i were the french secret service and had undisputable proof of bribery and decided to take the risk to do blackmail, i wouldn’t say “Ok, so you chose EF, heh? Well, announce that you postpone it or i will blow the whistle!”. I would say “Don’t dare to announce that you buy EF, or you are busted” or even more “Buy Rafale, or i will expose you”. In this way, you gained what? That we will get EF still now and MAYBE Rafale for Mirage exchange? Well, you blew it in blackmail then!

You know what ? I love Greece. I went there and fond that country wonderful and the people too.
so, I’m interested into that country even for non military reason.
And in my souvenir, just like for London, the official estimate cost of the Olypic games were a joke since the beginning.
so, the final cost wasn’t that surprising.

The final cost for Greece, WAS surprising. It triplicated. The original prevvision was already “increased” to have a margin, still it triplicated. One thing that nobody could predict, was that for security alone, we would have to pay 3 times what Sydney paid , because of 2001. Something that also nobody predicted, is that because of unxplained delays, we would find ourselves to double pay the works in the last 2 years, so that they will be accelerated (the construction companies were paid to work night and day literally and of course they asked for more money). Greece isn’t Great Britain. We are the smallest country to have hosted the games after WWII. The British can mistake on their estimates on 3 times high and still find the money. For Greece, 15 billion dollars, instead of 5 is huge difference. We had to take foreign LOAN in 2004. You didn’t answer that. Where would we find the money for EF? With yet another foreign loan?

I only want to point a quite inconsistent behaviour from the Greek governement.

It’s not inconsistent at all. Greece makes 5 year armament projects. The army makes a list of requested weapons and then makes a priority ranking. This list passes to the Bureay of Armaments and the Ministry of economics, so to include the money into the future budgets. Then when the time for each armament to be decided comes, the Bureau makes reccommendations to KYSEA and KYSEA decides. HAF have asked for “new gen aircraft” for years now. We postponed the EF although announced pubblically an bought F16s and Mirage2000-5, which aren’t new gen aicraft that HAF wants, but costed less because of price and because we already had these aircrafts. NOW, that our economy is out of “excessive procedure monitoring”, we can afford the EF again. How’s that weird? Heck, the Germans accuse us of not having money still now, you accuse us of having them even when we had to take foreign loans! Gee! We are the miracle country!

Your position with “blackmailing” is quite naïve honestly.

Why? In Greece all parties have corrupted politicians. You think that any goverment would like to deal with the French knowing that send their secret services to dig their bank accounts? Not to mention that bribing the minster of defence doesn’t guarantee you the tender. As i said, the KYSEA has more members, both political and military. The PM has more political power than the minister of defence, the 2 foreign ministers combined also have and the Chieff of Staff and Bureau representative, know better than the minister of defence what the weapons are. If the EADS really wanted to bribe, the best way, would be to do what Siemens did, that is, give money to the socialist party for its electoral campaigns. You know, Siemens had a worldwide bribery network to be favoured in the tenders and in Greece it funded the electoral campaigns of both parties. And unlike USA, where this is legal, in Greece is illegal. In deed, Siemens got many jobs in the telephone networks, Olympic games etc. Instead EADS prefered to bribe the brother in law of the MoD… Not impossible, but this isn’t the ministry of pubblic communications, where if you bribe the minister the job is done, because he decides.

And you know why we ordered the planes AFTER the Olympics? Because the Olympics themselves, brought back some of the money spent and because the annual spending for the Olympic works, ceased to exist in the next budgets, allowing the state budgets to come back to “normal” and exit the EU Comission’s deficit monitoring procedure.

The EF program, was the also the most expensive one, so the most likely to cut, even more, since the EF was still immature, so waiting wouldn’t hurt that much.

Wow, and not a word about the bribery ?

Do you know internal greek politics? The one party tries to find scandals of the other one in every possible way. If the conservatives could find any proof against the socialists, they would have used it to bring it down.

Very honestly, several journalists wonder if Dassault isn’t “too french”.
Relying on a strong technical position and keeping a “weak” commarcial and marketing team.

Why don’t they simply say that countries don’t simply put down the offers and take the most economically advantegeous but have other factors too?

Anyway, Dassault wasn’t too “french” always. Didn’t was convicted for bribery in Belgium? Maybe higher bribes are required then, to beat the Germans 🙂

It seems that in Singapore, the F-15 team proposed a much more flexible offer which won the day.
In Austria and Greece, Dassautl proposed Mirage 2000 against the Typhoon.
I find it quite strange, in Austria it seems we know why, I don’t know for greece.

Flexible isn’t quite the word. “All around” for their specific needs. Was it in Singapore that the Americans gave a weapons package too? That’s a plus. What about long term costs, other offsets, the fact that Rafale hasn’t been sold yet, and what about Singaporean political needs that i don’t know?

Anyway, whatever. I tried to explain in detail how Greece buys weapons. If i well remember, the British gave us a significantly more economic offer for the Challenger for example (not to mention the Russians). We got Leo2. There are also “schools” in the greek army. Meaning “tradition”. The armor likes Leopards. The navy likes german submarines (where, at least used too and still does when not in surface with wind. In both U209 and U214 we were the first foreign customer). In SAMs there is an increasing appreciation for the russian ones.

Add to this other economic advantages for greek industries, that have bonds with all sides as well as political support that one country may show. France politically in 1999 was “indifferent” to Greece. Add this to the cart. Today it isn’t. If it wasn’t for Sarko’s exchange idea , most probably the Rafale would never fly in Greece.

Now, if your press doesn’t take into account all this, but just resorts to a “our deal was better by 25%” , but they chose EF because EADS bribed their MoD, ok. You know a big EADS weapon? That can help HAI coninuously and in the long run. Dassault is already 45% (?) of EADS property and trying to sell her last aircraft.

But it’s always the Greeks’ fault. For the Germans it’s our fault for not having money for the French it’s our fault for having the money even when we have to take foreign loans. 😮

Yes, the Aegean ghost camo is nice, but maybe the Rafale will be colour-coded, so they will follow the camo of the Mirage.

Anyway, this is the last concern. The more i think the more i can’t digest the scenario of 2 french squadrons with just 20 and 25 aircfrafts. I can’t believe that HAF is Ok with this. I can only think that the PM is imposing this. At this point, i would even prefer no EF and instead buy all Rafale, but for the love of God, exchange the 2000-5 too! Instead everyone says the EF is closed deal.

Of course it could have been worse! We could go for EF + Rafale + Gripen + Su-35 + Mirage2000-5 + F35 + F16… 😮

I hope someone stops this!

A bit dark, yes. Like reading a Tom Clancy novel. 🙂

BTW, no, it’s not a Tom Clancy-like inspired scenario. 😀 It is a quick adaptation of the greek-turkish crisis of 1996 that i made. The difference is that at the end nobody opened fire and both fleets agreed to go home.

^ Imust admint, the French alwas made most pretty desings. The EF’s lines seems “ugly and too sober” compared to Rafale. That is why i always loved the Mirage2000. Such a pretty aircraft!

However in any case; do you really think that in a conflict with Russia that 36 EF would make a difference versus 48 Gripen or F-35?

48 aircrafts alone against the russian airforce won’t do any difference no matter what their type is. However, if your country decides to get into “arms race”, building a large airforce, then the types may also make a difference.

Perhaps this is the rationale behind going for one of the cheaper options; in any case it will not make a difference when facing the Russian military machine.

The rational isn’t simply a “cheap solution”, but a solution that is studied to beat the russian aircrafts. For example, you wouldn’t want your aircrafts to go against russian aircraft/russian missile combo that would have much increased “reach” compared to yours, because your “cheap” aircrafts will be blown out of the sky before the russian ones get inside a high kill probability zone of your aircrafts. For example, you need an aicraft with high speed and acceleration (add cinetic energy quickly to your missiles, deplete the cinetic reserve of the enemy missiles by enduring hish speed escape manouvres) in order to increase your “reach”. Or the Russians will be going in afterburn, shoot at your their best long missile, turn their backs at your missile as soon as they can and minimize their losses (the Americans call this “chicken run” tactic i think? Still, if the opponent has less “reach” who cares as long as you stay alive).

We would need a dramatic increase in defence spending, probably to Greek levels, in order to have a credible defence force on our own…

I wish you to not to arrive at that point. You have my sympathy though.

Building alliances seems to be the choice of the Norwegian government. For a traditional invasion we’ve got NATO. When it comes to a potential conflict in the Barents sea, I don’t know… Perhaps Sweden will rescue us? Norway is trying to build a nordic defence alliance with Sweden Finland and possibly Denmark, not as a substitute but a supplement to NATO.

After 40 years dealing with Turkey, i can tell you that nobody will send his men to die for you. Theoretically NATO should come running for your support, but i wouldn’t count on it. Meaning, NATO does what USA wants. Will USA risk open conflict with Russia over Norway? I doubt it. You can hope for material help and “warnings”, “bold statement of support” etc.

If you ask me, get into the EU as soon as possible. It would increase your political shield somewhat. Guess why Cyprus wanted to get into EU… In the long run, your best policy should be get into the EU, hope that EU will unite really and have common foreign and defence policy and keep until then the Russians at check with deterrence, meaning, convince them that their casualties would be too high compared to their possible gains.

If such an alliance should be implemented (and that’s a big if) it could talk in favor of choosing Gripen, on the other hand it could also favor F-35 since the nordic countries would then have the mix of a2a and a2g planes that could be beneficial. Another way of getting this mix could be to let Denmark buy the F-35 and Norway and Sweden operate Gripen. The Danish government is more keen on the F-35 than the Norwegian government it seems… Anyway the Norwegian decision will be announced by the end of this year, the same timeframe as the Thorvald Stoltenberg report…

I don’t know well what’s exactly the problem with Russia you have over there, but unless your nordic cousins are directly threatened too, i wouldn’t count on them sending their men to die either. And since as well said, Russia is a major energy exporter towards Europe, the european countries will be very divided. Probably if Russia was to decide to lay hands on resources in Barents sea, it won’t attempt an invasion of Norway. Simply a mini-war, just enough to shoot down your airforce and humiliate your army in the border, dragging you to a negotiation table, where you will be forced to make concessions that you wouldn’t do normally. It’s similar to our scenario, with the difference that Turks want soil too.

How will HAF determin how to rank these diferent fighters? Will the evaluation be on paper only, or will there be a technical evaluation by the airforce?

I don’t know HAF internal procedures. But the only ones choosing on paper, are us… in internet fora. All aircrafts have either come to Greece (even the Super Hornet, that the article says the Americans also proposed us as another dark horse) or HAF pilots have gone abroad. I would also expect that technical committees from HAF and sources from HAI have also looked at the aircrafts themselves, given that we have cooperation with all the contenders. Evaluation committees go to foreign industries all the time.

I really don’t know, but even if i knew, i wouldn’t go into such details.

If you mean whether there will be an air combat of the contenders over Greece, i doubt it. Even if it was to be, there are too many factors involved, including the human one (pilot).