HyperionI think that depends on when you want delivery. As far as I know, CAESAR development is moving rather slowly, because there is no customer for it yet. The Eurofighter consortium countries have not committed to buying it, & the manufacturers don’t want to spend a lot of money until they’re confident of getting it back. So far, development has been funded by the manufacturers.
I know. The tranche 3 is in a limbo. Even the consortium countries are having second thoughts on what they want the tranche 3 to be exactly and how many tranche 3 they want. This is insecurity i presume that doesn’t help HAF or the greek gov to rush in a EF order. Theoretically, if we place an order inside 2008 or 2009, i think that HAF would expect to have at least a batch of EFs operation for 2012, just a bit before the Turks receive their first F35. HAF is in a hurry for new planes, because the A-7 must be retired by 2010 and given their number, HAF needs to replace them with something. HAF’s latest dogma, is supposed to have a requirement for 300 jets operational at all times in order to have “sufficient numbers to defend the Aegean”. So, i don’t think HAF can wait for much longer.
If a customer said “We’ll buy Eurofighters if we can be sure of getting CAESAR”, I think Selex, EADS & Indra would give a firm timeline, & commit the resources needed to meet it. They have a functioning prototype, & have tested it in a Eurofighter. They should be able to estimate the time & cost of turning it into an operational radar pretty well.
I sure HOPE, that if our gov has indeed EF in its sights, that has asked for the Caesar and has already discussed about it with the consortium companies. I sure hope so. Amongst greek enthusiasts, it is common belief, that it will be a scandal on behalf of our gov, if we order a normal “tranche 2 with Captor”, only to find ourselves in the need to pay again in 2015 for upgrade with Caesar because HAF will be complaining about it…
P.S. : My advice is to never believe what you read from ANY one (including fellow Greeks) as “certainty”. My experience tells me, that people love to make “certain predictions”, quoting “certain sources”, specially when they have a 50% probability of chance looking at cold statistics even for someone with “no sources”. I must also underline, that there are a LOT of money on the stake, and many people have every interest to spread the rumours that help their own product, in order to make a “winning atmosphere”. Whoever gets contracts now, isn’t getting just these contracts. He is making a FOOTHOLD inside future HAF’s programs, because from attrition alone, one can’t stay forvever with 40 or 20 aircrafts. Some months ago in Greece there was a scoop about 2 greek journalists that “casually” met a greek EADS representative who was by accident entering the same cafè with a German EADS official and since they greek rep “knew” one of the greek journalists, they “sat like friends” alltogether to speak about the weather, sun and eurofighter… The journalists denied that it was anything but a “casual” meeting and that they didn’t write an article supporting EF (but their newspapers did…). That’s to understand how many factors come into play. HAF evaluation, political pressures, economic long term studies, political support from certain countries or not, foreign lobbying through newspapers, defence magazines and most probably politicians, all come to play for the final decision. For example after Sarkozy’s visit , our Defence Minister replied to some rumours about buying french weapons as a rewards for Sarkozy’s political support to Greece, he said “the armaments programs aren’t a form of exchange to play with in order to “buy” politica support. However, when time comes, the political support that a country showed towards Greece, will also have a certain weight on the final decision”. To make an example, why do you think that between the FREMMs, Greece will prefer the french one instead of the italian? As a matter of fact, reading greek press, the italian one isn’t even mentioned that it exists. Because if you have 2 similar ships (radar is main difference) you will prefer the french, because you have better relations , while Italy’s foreign policy is steadily proturkish and pro-FYROM. So, why would you give your money to the Italian goverment, that backstabs you, instead of the french that says “France has chosen Greece”.? See, it’s all in the game.
HyperionRafale development future may look like an issue, but at least, standard F3 is about to be qualified, Exocet has been tested (in June 2007).
The AESA is secured too, with a proper integration, and real AESA capabilities (like interleaved modes etc)… Which, according to our newspaper Air & Cosmos is quite questionable about CAESAR, but it’s another topic.
Last time i read in a greek forum was that Exocet was tested but is not officially certified yet for the Rafale. I don’t know. We don’t have too many Exocets (39), but, still, they are yet another threat that we have, combined with the ships’ missiles and the land bases Exocets, which can make the life of the turkish navy more complicated, because a well coordinated simultaneous attack by missiles fired from air, sea and land exocets in the islands, will be something quite hard to handle.
I know that the French Aesa is planned to be available for export versions, even if someone orders today and i think this is a point if favour of the Rafale and that in HAF they are evaluating it…
HyperionThanks a lot Hyperion, it was a very interesting read, you provided a lot of very interesting background 🙂
Don’t thank me. I wish i really knew what is going to happen. The same goes for many Greeks. I can only say what my personal impression is.
Hard to prove ! We don’t even know yet of what the F35 will be able of and, furthermore, which version Turkey’ll get. However, it’s sure all this training time with Greece has a goal and this may be it.
I don’t think that the recent Rafale rampage in Greece is casual either. In the last months we saw more foreign aircrafts in Greece than in the last 5 years for trainning or “visits”. If were a HAF official, the least i would do, is to ask EADS and Dassault or even better verify it on the field, on what their capabilities are in detecting let’s say a 0.001 m2 RCS target. I think that in HAF they may have come with better idea than this. Even having in advance an approximative capability is better than nothing.
BTW, on a French forum I read recently that the Rafale has used/tried all of Spectra’s capacities (included the 3rd part of it which is never used in exercise in France for fear of spying) in Crete. Have you heard of it as well ?
No, i haven’t heard of the Spectra being used in Greece. I have read that in general, the Dassault ICMS variants that are put in the Mirage are highly appreciated in HAF, especially in the jamming sector, compared to the american ASPIS suites that are on the F16s. Meaning, that the reputation of french electronics in that sector is rumoured to be very high in HAF.
NB : I don’t plan to debate about the rightness of Greek perceptions about the Rafale (even if I feel some part of it to be quite off), since it’s quite pointless. Do we agree ?
Agreed. Note also that these are perceptions and nothing more. I for one, don’t know what the Chief of HAF thinks of the fighters. If you visit defencenet.gr forum, they have arrived to topic “New gen aircraft No. 5” and in U214 issue the topic now has 50 pages. Guess what happens. Each is trying to prove the other wrong. Then one comes and says he has “a source inside HAF” saying that “EF is done deal, forget about the Rafale”. Then Sarkozy comes to Greece and out of the blue we have a special committee studying the Rafale exchange proposal. In the U214 we had one claiming to be “inside” the Skaramanga and seeing the no.2 U214 every day. Lately another with “sources from the navy” said about a “new german attempt to fix the sub” which is the cause that soon a greek navy committe will be sent again to Kiel for new test and that the navy has haste to receive the subs and hopes to receive them by autum or latest by December. Who can say if these people have any clue of what they are saying or if their “source in the navy” is simply a sailor who tries to appear important or the “source in the ministry” is an accountant?
And i have learnt that you have to take all such “inside sources” with a *big* grain of salt. Newspaper and defence magazine articles? The same, because they support most of the times one product over the other (who knows why…).
On the other hand, I was wondering where from the Greek Air Force had the impression/assurance/certitude (?) that the EF could defeat the F35. Is it just for all the talks about “the EF interception first role” or did they had something “stronger” ?
Refer to my post above. Personally, i wouldn’t trust even a HAF pilot to tell me what “HAF impressions are”. A HAF pilot may have some first hand opinion if he has flown with or against EF or Rafale. But surely, he hasn’t access to things that HAF’s Chieff has (technical data from the companies, possible evaluation from HAF’s mecchanics, economic study etc). Since i don’t know HAF’s Chieff, i can’t say that i know what HAF’s impression is. What i said is the impression that only *I* have from the general climate in greek press. Most sources in the press indicate that EF is the favourite. Whether these sources are doing their job or are pure journalistic speculation or even lobbying, is another story. I wish HAF would make a pubblic announcement, so that we can avoid reading the topic “new gen. aircraft no. 6” in the greek fora…
The only thing of which one can be reasonably sure about its feasibility now, is that F35 isn’t stealth on IRST too… And logically in the upcoming years, IRST, aesa radars and sensor fusion will improve, reducing always more the “stealth ability” of F35. The question is how you deal with it in the meantine.
I think that if the rumours about 40 EF for now are true, this also indicates a need for prudence from HAF’s side. 40 aircrafts is not a huge number. So in the worst case scenario, that EF won’t be able to detect F35 at “profitable” ranges , we will use them as “F16 Killers” and an order of F35 for us will follow anyway in about 2012-2014. The Turkish F35 deliveries will only be starting at that time, so we will get the F35 too, before they gain a significant advantage. In the meantime EF (or even Rafale) will be able to take care of the CCIP turkish F16 and seems that we will upgrade our older F16s too.
HyperionIneresting … so CAESAR really is going to be a lot better than CAPTOR could ever be.
Caesar is Captor’s heir in development. But the mecchanical scanning radars are in the end of their future. It’s like buying Windows 98 when Windows XP came out just because “Win98 isn’t all that worse”. However you see it AESA is the future and it does give advantages over Captor. It has been discussed widely in this forum too. It’s not that Captor isn’t a very good radar, but why buy it when a better one and of the future tech is on the works?
HyperionThis prove only one, Sokrates has right!
Why? Sokrates was neither a geometer, nor a movie technician. Or do you mean “only one thing i know, that i know nothing” as Sokrates said?
If you want your image comparison to have some success, you need to screencapture them, with the same aspect ratio, that’s all. You shot the greyed one, with the wrong aspect ratio (too soon).
Try again with these, which are closer to the same aspect ratio (not perfect though):
You can even print them and measure them manually with the good old school protractor. But even putting them side by side, you can see they are parallel to each other.
And i don’t have some fancy photoshop program, since i don’t use such stuff, but my scanner program has some limited super-imposing capabilities.
If the two lines of the angles are parallel one to another, then the angles are of the same value, aren’t they.
Regards
HyperionHi Hyperion ?
Could you give a few hints on why, up to you, the Greek gvt is going “so strongly” for the EF ?
Thanks in advance
Cheers
ZedroS
Hello Zedros. The goverment hasn’t expressed itself in favour of EF. It’s mostly the impression that one gets from the majority of the press. Needless to say, the main contenders as well as outsiders have their own lobby in Greece and each is pushing for his aircraft. Dassault, EADS, the Americans, even the Swedish try to make the “surprise”.
The main issue is that we want air superiority aircraft. Can either EADS or Dassault give assurances today that their aircraft will be able to detect and shoot down F-35? This is the whole issue for Greece. The most probably answer at least for us outsiders, is “nobody can tell”. Then, it is more natural to go for the aircraft that has been developed since the beginning for air superiority (EF).
There is also the decision of the previous socialist goverment in favour of EF and Germany (responsible for promoting EF for Greece) uses that as a means of pressure to the current goverment.
Of course the Americans would like us to buy more F16 and then F35, or order directly F35 now.
The “lobby” war is obvious even in defence press. One defence magazine wrote good things about the Rafale performance in Greece, while in another’s magazine’s forum, some posters affiliated to the magazine wrote that the Rafales were grounded. Similar “lobby war” has been seen about the BMP-3 too. One magazine (that by coincidence has a Rosoboronexport advertising on its page) wrote in the magazine a very nice article about BMP-3 compared to western alternatives, while the other “big” magazine of the sector, burried the BMP-3 “under the mud” in its review.
The Rafale has on its side the fact that costs less to acquire and can carry Mirage’s weapons, plus, the fact that France has shown in fact lately a political support to the greek gov in foreign policy. Also Dassault underlines that it has similar parts to a degree with Mirage2000-5Mk2, so we won’t make extreme fatigue to adopt to the use of Rafale. Then there is also the curious Rafale weapons advantage, where a Rafale with IRST and MICA IR can track and fire a missile without ever opening the radar, something the EF can’t do.
The EF on the other hand, has all the consorcium countries that pressure to buy it, although politically lately they have been neutral or frankly hostile towards greek foreign policy, they also evoke the socialist’s gov announcement of 2004 on favour of EF and in the greek press, the supporters say that it is built for air superiority, so if one of the 2 is capable of seeing and shooting down the F-35, then it’s the EF. Also , the EF “fan club” says that EF costs more, but has secured future development and that the French sell cheap initially, but they charge much more later, for french weapons and spare parts. Honestly the future development of Rafale is a serious issue. The Turks will have american upgrade programs for their F35 , will we have similar programs for Rafale or because of low sales, it will become soon obsolete? The main EF problem if ordered today, is that we want it with the Caesar radar, something that i don’t know if they can provide us if we order now.
We can only speculate, but in greek defence fora, it is the prevalent opinion, that we will buy 40 EF now, which since they cost much, will play the role of the “Mirage2000” back on the 80s deal and then we will buy in bigger numbers F35, which given also the euro-dollar exchange ratio, will probably be quite cheaper. In this way we will repeat the Mirage2000-F16 combo, where EF will be the heir of the Mirage and F35 the heir of F16. So, the same plane of the Turks, in order to know what we are dealing with and another aircraft built for air superiority, costly, but of which the Turks won’t know the full capabilities.
Now, of course the Rafales in the latest appearance in Greece may have shown things that we don’t know but HAF and our PM knows and maybe we will get surprised. But for now, EF is given for favourite.
The Rafale, COULD find a place in HAF, if we exchange them with the Mirage, since anyway, the A-7 are about to be retired, so a “fighter” plane could very easily fit there, to launch the SCALP we have bought for the Mirage and hopefully, Dassault could certify the Rafale for use of the Exocets that we have ( i think F3 isn’t certified yet). Then in depth of time, we would certainly buy further numbers of the Rafale and i think this is what Sarkozy also thought and wants to “jump” into HAF’s inventory even if with 20 planes now, but with further orders later.
The scenario of keeping the Mirage2000-5 and exchanging only the Mirage2000 for Rafale, for me doesn’t make sence. It would make us have 2 types of aircrafts with about 20-25 aircrafts each, logistically it would be unwise. HAF in the past has used 6 types if i well remember of aircrafts at the same time, but it is time to reduce them and now the opportunity to do so is given.
If it wasn’t for Turkey’s F35, i think our PM would love to “reward” Sarkozy’s “nouvelle alliance” with buying Rafale in serious numbers. I also think that after Sarkozy’s performance no greek either citizen or politician would accuse the PM for wanting to buy them. After all we have long ties with Dassault since the Mirage F1 era.
But it doesn’t seem plausible by reading the press, that the Rafale will get the “new gen. aircraft” deal. If we accept that the Rafale is “fighter- multirole”, then our “multirole” inventory starts to become awfully crowded, with the F16s already we have. HAF’s main concern isn’t to bomb Turkey or support an amphibious attack on the turkish coast, but to be able to shoot down the turkish planes quicker than they can do it to ours, so to at the end, negate air superiority to turkish airforce that will be trying to isolate our islands and destroy our equipment on them, so to facilitate the turkish amphibious-airborne assault. I know, i know, someone will say that we won’t have a crisis with Turkey, but i just say the criteria that our military thinks with. Their job is to assume that a crisis may occur. Our Chief of Staff said the same when asked why he wanted BMP-3 as IFV and not something with wheels for example. He said “we want a vehicle capable to fight from Evros – the land border with Turkey- up to Rhodes island, not a peacekeeping vehicle”.
Regards.
P.S.: Sorry for not being able to give positive info on what will happen, but fact is, we can only make conjectures. Hell, if Dassault has the means to prove to our airforce that the Rafale can detect and shoot down the F-35 we may order 80 Rafales and everyone will remain with the mouth open! 😮
HyperionThank you for all the details, Hyperion.;)
I’m French.
Don’t mention it. I am curious to see how this will end up. Surely Sarkozy stirred the pot with his visit as well as the co-trainning of the Rafales in Greece. Politically speaking, i can assure you, that our PM would very much want to satisfy Sarkozy on the Rafale deal. But HAF will have a say on this one too. Now we will wait and see.
HyperionWhat about Rafale ?
There is nothing new. As i said, a HAF committee was appointed to study the long term cost of both solutions. Since it’s summer and awfully hot in Greece these days, i wouldn’t expect any news until autumn. The only result is that in greek defence fora, there is now an orgy of scenarios of what is the best thing to do with Rafale fans vs “upgraded Mirage” fans.
Personally, if the long term economic study is favourable, i am in favour of Rafale replacing the Mirage, BUT, only if we give ALL the Mirage to the French. Otherwise we will have Rafale AND Mirage 2000-5, which IMHO, doesn’t make any sense. HAF should reduce, not increase aircraft types.
I also think, that we will hear about a decision only after the EU September summit. This, because weapons contracts, also act as political weapons and in September the gov. may be forced to veto FYROM. In that case, pending weapons problem, can serve to keep quieter some countries (same goes for EF program).
I honesly think that the current gov would like for political reasons alone to give a hand to Sarkozy and buy the Rafale. But, France will almost surely will get the frigate program, so if the Rafale solution cost is too high, i think the gov won’t do it.
But, if there was ever a chance for France to sell Rafale to Greece, even if it is through an indirect program (the upgrade of Mirage) and not the direct “New gen. aircraft, this chance is now. In interior politics the goverment is having a hard time with the oil prices and inflation going on, so Sarkozy’s visit and late diplomatic help to Greece was a relief for our PM.
I don’t know if you are French or speak french, but Sarkozy in Athens gave an one-man-show inside the Parliament. In a scale from 1 to 10, Sarkozy takes 12 for his appearance he made in Greece. Nobody can remember a foreign politician being so openly pro-greek in all matters of greek foreign policy. He already sided with the greek PM against Bush for FYROM’s NATO entry and in the Greek Parliament he said so “warm” phrases that it is unbelievable. This man , REALLY knows how to sell.
in french some of his comments:
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/3421/sarkozyathens6june2008xi7.png
On immigration “Your problems are OUR problems”, the wall of Nicosia must fall, on FYROM issue “France is solidary with Greece and such will remain”, “France-Greece new alliance”, he even remembered his grandfather from Thessaloniki…
Here Sarkozy in action in the greek parliament (fragment):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eo6kAyZtj1I
Believe me, if the criteria was only political and we didn’t have Turkey on the eastern border, i think that Greece would buy only Rafale or at most, Rafale + EF. While now, probably we will go for 40 EF now, F35 around 2012-2014 and MAYBE Rafale.
He also sent twice the Rafales in Greece in the last months, while the Eurofighter consorcium is resting on its laurels doing nothing, (other than of course saying that we don’t have money).
So the forum wars continue. In absolute numbers, greek forum members favour EF:
http://www.defencenet.gr/forum/index.php?topic=5980.0
But, when Sarkozy’s latest deal comes to play, things are different…
Hyperionhttp://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/industrie/:Krauss%20Maffei%20Geld%20Panzer/321137.html
In der Branche sind auch Abnahme- und Zahlungsverzögerungen bei ThyssenKrupp für U-Boote, bei der EADS-Tochter Eurocopter für NH-90-Hubschrauber und bei Dassault und Lockheed bekannt. Branchenkenner sprechen von einer Verzögerungstaktik der Griechen, damit die Maastricht-Kriterien zur Staatsverschuldung eingehalten werden.
Debt by Lockheed!
Debt by Dasault!
Debt by EADS!
Debt by Kraus Maffei
Debt by HDW.
Debt, debt,
What does out debt in Lockheed is about? This the first time i heard this. The deliveries of F16s haven’t even started yet. As for EADS, check how many countries have delayed the acceptance of NH-90 due to problems. Greece was supposed to have deliveries of NH-90 in 2008 and 2009. Just because a german journalist is quoting every company comes to mind, automatically this is true?
http://www.european-defence.co.uk/nh90.html
Now check how many of those who were supposed to get the deliveries earlier are on schedule.
As i understand it, the Germans didn’t even bothet to write the greek version of facts. They resort to simply call “debts” as proof of their excellence of products. OK. It is a perfect way to avoid commenting on the german incoherences showed above.
Now the transcript of what Simeonakis said, apart the parts i alread wrote.
Emmanuel Simeonakis, Vice Admiral retired.
1 year after the launch of the submarine, arrives at Kiel as commander of the greek committee that was supposed to observe the progreess of the contract. Mr. Simeonakis has long experience as submarine captain, submarine commander and director of operations in the NATO submarine Command at Naples. When he arrives at Kiel in 2005, the “Papanikolis” hadn’t showed the problem, due to the fact that the tests until then where being conducted inside the gulf of Kiel, which is a closed sea, with shallow water and not particular waves. Only the greek team of Simeonakis observes something strange. Our TV show has met with Mr. Simeonakis in Crete, where he now lives after he retired from the navy. He speaks for the first time about his experience in Germany.
Simeonakis: “We discovered that the sub was slow to surface. This behaviour had caught our attention, we were talking about it amongst officers, we also told it to HDW, but we didn’t give particular importance to it, because it wasn’t all that important. But later it was proved to be extremely important.
In that period, the Germans are taking the sub out to test in Kristensen of Norway and subsequentely, they travel to open sea, to the north, towards Bergen in Norway. In the middle of the way, the german commander aborted the test because the sub was taking excessive rolling while on surface. So the crew got out of the sub quite upset. Also, i certainly met with the Greek that was on board and he told me that the inclination was so high, that he was afraid that the sub was about to turn upside down.
– What was the wind strenght then?
– 6 Beauforts.
– And were the waves big?
– The height of waves? About 3-3.5 meters. 6 Beauforts is a common sea in the Aegean enviroment.
The sub returns to Kristensen, where the HDW technicians were gathered. They announce to Simeonakis that they will take corrective measures. But, after some weeks, in the next test, the sub takes again high inclination.
Simeonakis: “They made a stability test to see the stability value of the sub and decided that there has been a mistake in the weight distribution and transferred 21 tons from the top sections, to the bottom of the sub. This was the 2nd measure they tried, which didn’t have success either, because in the next tests it was proved that the sub was taking inclinations of not just 45 degrees, but arrived up to 52 degrees, as it has been registered by a system called “Arrianne”, which registers all the parameteres of the sub, like speed, course, inclination etc.”
This part is about what the last officer in the video said. Captain engineer Constantinos Tziotis, the successor of Simeonakis in the greek team in Kiel. According to the greek Navy, the inclination isn’t the only problem of Papanikolis.There are 6 more problems. Even the AIP system according to the greek side faces problems.
Tziotis: “From the total of tests made, we have seen that there are serious problems, that affect the acceptance of the sub. The first is the behaviour of the sub towards waves, on surface. The second is the AIP, the ISUS system, some problems with the periscope and the leak of salt water into the hydraulics fluid system.
——————————————————
“Debts, debts, debts”. I wonder why Merkel is pushing so hard to sell the Eurofighter.
Every time we find a defect on the shiny armour, they will say “debt”. I must say, in absence of better answers, it is a very good marketing weapon to protect the reputation of your companies.
Why don’t the Americans and French come out to say about our debts instead of a german journalist? Now the Germans protest on behalf of the others? 😮
Debts, debts, debts. STILL, the vaunted Leo 2A6 was penetrated where it should have been immune, and the U214 doesn’t have design problems , but at best initially had, as the photos and documents say. (But don’t tell the german pubblic, for God’s sake!).
BTW, Greece has exited deficit control procedure for a year now.
http://www.neurope.eu/articles/73466.php
I wonder, for how long will the german journalists will continue to use the same argument?
HyperionJust out of curioucity… Has there been ANY article in the german press, that wrote also the greek “excuse”? I mean, did ANY german media refer that the Greeks claim that the sub has inclination problems (initially had much more problems, ranging from ISUS to water leaking in) or that the Leo 2’s armor got penetrated?
I just want to see if there is even the slightest attempt of neutrality or good will in the german press, that’s all.
HyperionAnother article from 2007 (in a greek defence forum alone there are 50 pages already, so searching page by page takes an awful lot time and some have links that don’t work anymore).
http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=20.07.2007,id=51083268
It talks about “new round of blackmail” from the german side that threatens to sack 1500 workers at Skaramanga.
Also:
“Η γερμανική εταιρεία χαρακτηρίζει τη μη παραλαβή του υποβρυχίου «πρόσχημα» ώστε να μην καταβληθούν οφειλόμενα στον Σκαραμαγκά, τα οποία σε παλαιότερες δηλώσεις τού επικεφαλής της επιχείρησης Ράινχαρτ Κούλμαν υπολογίζονταν σε περίπου 200 εκατ. ευρώ.”
“The german company characterizes the non acceptance of the sub as “excuse” so to avoid paying Skaramanga the owed money , which according to previous statements of Reinhard Coolman (sorry for spelling, i don’t speak german), were calculated to around 200 mln euros.
“Από την πλευρά του υπουργείου Εθνικής Αμυνας, κανένα μέλος της πολιτικής ηγεσίας δεν θέλησε να σχολιάσει τις θέσεις της γερμανικής εταιρείας. Αφηναν δε να εννοηθεί ότι δεν είναι διατεθειμένοι να εμπλακούν σε διελκυστίνδα δηλώσεων, για θέματα που ήδη έχουν συζητηθεί με την εταιρεία και έχουν υπογραφεί συμφωνίες και ενόσω επίκειται η επίσκεψη της Γερμανίδας καγκελαρίου.”
“From the side of the defence ministry, none of the political leadership wanted to comment on the german statements. They were leaving to be intended that they aren’t disposed to enter an endless wrestling of statements, for issues that have already been discussed with the company and for which agreements have been signed, while the visit of the German chancellor is pending soon.”
“Πάντως, σε δήλωση που έκανε στις 9 Ιουλίου ο γ.δ. Αμυντικών Εξοπλισμών και Επενδύσεων του υπουργείου, Ευάγγελος Βασιλάκος, με αφορμή την επίσκεψη του Γιώργου Παπανδρέου στον Σκαραμαγκά, το υπουργείο «από τα 4 καινούργια υποβρύχια μέχρι σήμερα έχει πληρώσει τα 3 και δεν έχει παραλάβει κανένα. Από τα 3 υποβρύχια προς εκσυγχρονισμό έχει πληρώσει τα 2 και επίσης δεν έχει παραλάβει κανένα. Κατά συνέπεια, η κυβέρνηση δεν χρωστά δεδουλευμένες εργασίες».”
” However, in statement of July 9 2007, the segretary general of the defence procurements and investments of the ministry, Evaggelos Vasilakos, in the occasion of the visit of George Papandreou to Skaramanga, stated that “From the 4 new subs, the ministry has paid for the 3 and has received none. From the 3 subs that are being upgraded, has paid 2 and has received also none. As conseguence, the goverment has no debts to pay for”.
HyperionWhen Papanikolis was on sea trial in Germany, S. Korean navy submarine crews were also in that sub with Greek and they said they heard Hellenic Navy crews were pleased with the performance of her but all of sudden, they left Germany right after they got order from their country.
I guess i have to take your word on it, over Simeonakis, who was also in Germany (and also was commander of the submarine command of greek fleet too in his career) and refers also the opinion of the same greek crew. Or should i ask you… for a link…?
-Now, i have the german side, saying that the sub has been ready for delivery for years now.
-Then, the president says that there are (not were) some minor problems due to the fact that this is a prototype.
– I have the german test Captain saying they never interrupted the trials.
-Then the greek video shows the german document saying the exact opposite. What does this tell you about the coherence of the German Captain?
– According to the german test captain, the rolling of the sub is normal and the only thing you should worry about it having your cup of coffee spilling over. The German captain also admits that excessive rolling may cause spill over from the fuel cells, but “this has never happened on his sea trials”. (Let’s hope it doesn’t happened also in 30 years of service in Greece. But if it does happen, i guess it will be the Greeks’ fault again).
– On the other hand, Simeonakis says that the Germans were initially accepting that as a problem, tried to fix it lowering 21 tons of weight towards the lower parts of the sub to improve stability, but to no avail. After this, the Germans came up with the parametric rolling theory, to say that it is normal, which would agree with the “spilling your cup of coffee” theory and the “you won’t go at full speed” that the German captain says.
– Add to that that the HDW President, says that the greek gov has safety concerns.
– Also, Simeonakis, at the time of the video, is retired, he won’t be “promoted” to Admiral from our gov if he will lie. So what’s his gain again?
– In the video talks also the greek defence minister who made the deal (Tsohatzopoulos).
– The current Engineer of the navy (the overweight officer at the end of the video) who has to give the green light also says he couldn’t sign.
– The German press and HDW are trying since at least 2006 to deliver the sub as “ready”, yet, on October 2007, the HDW Pres, admits “minor problems”. What does that tell you about coherent statements?
From this, you deduce that all Greeks are lying while the Germans don’t. Fine. I beg to differ.
There was some problems in her but HDW had been fixed it.
I guess i will have to take your word for it.
we also built that U214 and there were just minor fixes during building and we have comissioned her. I don’t think U214 got serious design problem.
Forgive me if i am more prone to believe Simeonakis on that, unless something has changed in the meantime of course.
I think there are some political reason that they refused her. Maybe the price tag?
Athens refused to pay, and the shipyard group ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems refused to hand over the sub until the bill is payed!
Let me ask you something… If you go to buy a car, and the dealer admits that this car has “minor problems due to the fact that this is a prototype”, will you pay for it anyway? I wouldn’t. And exactly because we talk about million of euros here and not about 15000 euros that a car costs, i think i wouldn’t accept the sub either.
The Janes source ( one of the most renowned defence sources.) directly said that: “In spite of [the] client’s break of contract,” meaning that Greece simply doesn’t met its payment duties. There is no such thing than a 80 % payment, if so please provide a link.
The fact that Jane is renowned doesn’t mean that the article represents anything else than the already well known German position. After all Janes simply quotes a “german source close to the industry”, whoever that may be… The greek video quotes greek and german sources too, much more precise than that…
You don’t mind it being in greek, do you?… Anyway, here’s one from greek Eleftherotipia newspaper of 2006:
http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=112,dt=05.11.2006,id=49406412
“*Μέχρι στιγμής η ελληνική πλευρά έχει καταβάλει το 75% του ποσού “
“Until now, the greek side has given the 75% of the sum.”
This is the written summary of the SKAI TV’s documentary above:
http://folders.skai.gr/transcript.php?id=61&tid=58
“Το εξοπλιστικόπρόγραμμα στοιχίζει 1,7 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ και η Ελλάδα πληρώνει προκαταβολικά το 80% του τιμήματος, κοντά στα 1,4 δισεκατομμύρια.”
“The program costs 1.7 bln euros and Greece pays in advance 80% of the cost, roughly 1.4 bln”.
From Ethnos Newspaper:
“ύμφωνα με τον Β. Βασιλάκο, η ελληνική κυβέρνηση, αν μη τι άλλο, θεωρεί απαράδεκτη τη στάση τού εδώ εκπροσώπου της Thyssen, ο οποίος παραγνωρίζει το γεγονός ότι η εταιρεία του έχει ήδη πληρωθεί το 80% του προγράμματος κατασκευής των νέων υποβρυχίων χωρίς η Ελλάδα να έχει παραλάβει κανένα υποβρύχιο!!”
http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&pubid=111331
“According to Mr. Vasilakos, the greek gov, thinks, if not else, as unacceptable the behaviour of the local Thyssen representative, who is avoiding the fact that his company has already been paid for the 80% of the program of the construction of new submarines, without Greece having received a single submarine!!!”.
Note that while SKY is pro-govermental newspaper, Ethnos and Eleftherotypia are opposition newspapers, who under normal circumstances, would love to accuse the goverment.
I understand that the Thyssen position is that Thyssen gave the money for 4 subs out of her own pocket and still awaits for the day that will be paid, instead of forcing by legals means Greece to pay. Ok.
It is obvious that reading the same source, we come to different conclusions. I must say, that IF the German story IS the true one, they did an awful job of presenting it coherently.
In any case, at least from Karamanlis’ gov, i doubt Thyssen will see a contract again. Karamanlis lately met with the Navy Chief and talked about the subs too, both agreed that “we want them, but as they are supposed to be, not as they are”.
Regards
Hyperionhttp://www.janes.com/news/defence/naval/jdi/jdi080306_1_n.shtml
The source told Jane’s on 4 March: “A substantial three-digit figure in million euros [is] outstanding on this order,” adding: “In spite of [the] client’s break of contract, there has been no interruption of the work on the Type 214 submarines, nor on the Neptune II programme.
Nothing new here that i can see… Greek sources never wrote that we paid all the subs either. Calculate how much 20-25% of the entire program is and in deed a 3 digit figure will come out (1 sub costs about 450 mln). There is simply a divergence of opinions about who is in breach of contract. The Germans continue to say that the sub is within contract parameters, the greek navy says that it’s not.
I admire HDW though, for sustaining financial damage itself, instead of denouncing the breach of contract legally and sell the subs to another customer. I wouldn’t want HDW to go bankrupt just because she loved Greece so much. 😀
HyperionAnother interesting thing that vice Admiral Simeonakis says, is that after all failed attempts to correct the inclination, the Germans took it to another level. They tried to present this behaviour as perfectly normal. So they assigned the case to a Professor from the university of Hamburg, who came up with the “parametric rolling” theory, which he tried to “sell” to the Greeks. As he says, the Greek Navy, never accepted this theory as valid or normal and since then no further attempt to correct has been done and Papanikolis has been sitting at Kiel dock, waiting for the sun to come up every morning.
He also says that the German’s “solutions” to the inclination, is to “go at half velocity” when on surface. Simeonakis says that this is “operationaly unacceptable”.
Also at the question “If it were you to sign the acceptance, would you accept it?” Reply: “No, categorically no! If they were to give it to me anyway, well, i would try to always navigate submerged”.
HyperionTomorrow I’m quitting the job, opening a defence company and trying to sell something to Greek Government 🙂
Well, with a nice “tip” to the right politicians, you never know what contract you may take! (In these days we have the greek ramification of the Siemens scandal, great fun to watch how they were taking “tips” and then doing the money laundring).
But paying 80% of the whole project without taking delivery of the boat is a huge thing. Even that 80% was achieved step by step, it’s still a lot of money for nothing.
The amount is what the greek defence press and the SKAI documentary say. It was the only way to keep on the production, hoping that the problem would have been soon identified and corrected. Otherwise the delivery date of the last sub, would be something like 2020. I am not the accountant of the greek defence ministry, so i can’t say that we did give the 80% or less. I just wrote what the greek side is saying.
By the way, by the video, are you referring to the documentary aired on Skai TV? There was a female reporter and she made interviews wit an ex admiral responsible for the tests of Papanikolis, Skaramanga officials etc. There was also the periscope image during tests.
Yes, i added the link to my post. I had forgotten it. She interviewed retired vice Admiral Simeonakis, who described the issue and explained what the periscope image is (from the Arrianne recording system) and at the question if he would accept the sub he answers “no, because its behaviour on surface is unpredictable”.
IMHO, exactly because we have given much money and the delay is already enough, the solution will be political between the goverments, leaving the Navy and HDW outside and there will be some kind of “offset” in order to accept the deal. Maybe even the german proposal to scrap Neptune II and build more U214, is a step towards that direction (make a good price for the next ones).
As a historical note, both Collins Class subs and U214 were designed by Kockums shipyards (now part of HDW) and both presented problems (or maybe the Australians didn’t have money at the beginning so they feigned them).
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