TempestNutHawker Tempest II got to be close to being finished by now,
The Vulcan
P38
Lots of Gladiators and Hawker biplanes
TempestNutI believe MK732 shared a kill on the 6th of June . That was with 485 Squadron coded ‘OU-Q’
Thank you David. I will be a little more circumspect when giving my history lessons to the non aviation types that I drag to the occasional air shows :confused: especially those family from down in NZ that come for a visit.
TempestNutThis has been disputed, quite recently, on this forum, but nothing came of it for some reason…. :confused:
Ok first I have heard this. Any idea where this new information has come from? D Day was always going to be a chaotic day in many ways so it is entirely possible that ML407 would have a rival for this distinction, but were they both on charge with 485 squadron or was MK732 with another squadron and involved in another action? What ever if she is to project this part of her history then perhaps she’s in the wrong colours
TempestNutyour suggesting that a carburrated engine is more efficient than a fuel injected unit?the intercooled fuel injection units operated very efficiently and had an exellent reliability record, the merlin went through several mods and i agree it was a most potent unit ,however they did suffer in battle and ive seen plenty of battle used examples with blocks destroyed by the shock loading factor whilst most of the german units id examined seemed to fair better absorbing more damage, i dont intend to get into a merlin v the rest scenario but these engines werent blessed by god as it were, nor were the german units:cool: 😎 😎
It is no accident that the Merlin has been the most successful Liquid cooled inline engine used in post war racing. By the end of its development it was as bullet proof as current technology could make it. Part of how the Merlin got to this position can be explained by the excellent supercharging and associated parts of the intake system that all work together to take advantage of the supercharger. Having provided the means of producing more power the mechanical engineers rigorously strengthened every component. This is the essence of how the engine became so strong. Of course it did not happen all at once.
Much myth surrounds the German fuel injection, but most people don’t understand how it worked or that it bore more relationship to a diesel engine fuel system than any modern type fuel injection system that all inject into the intake of the engine. The system used by Germany during the war on their large aero engines was a metered direct into the cylinder injection system. It suffered at times from poor atomisation and this lead to detonation and lower power levels. As boost pressures rose, these problems became more difficult to resolve.
The humble carburettor on the other hand worked by the low pressure on the intake drawing fuel into the engine. It was soon realised that the traditional float chamber type had some serious drawbacks in combat, but it had better mixture control and atomisation as the supercharger added agitation. The injection carburettor replaced the more traditional type and overcame the operational issues.
Again as boost pressure rose and 2 stage superchargers were used the process of injecting the fuel into the eye of the supercharger could lower the air/fuel change significantly lowering the detonation level and allowing more power to be produced. This was the very effect that MW50 had.
TempestNutThe Merlin was 27 litres. It was the smallest capacity front line combat engine of the war. It started at 950hp, just, flew the Battle of Britain at 1300hp, by 43 it was at 1600hp and 2000hp reliably by June 44. In 44 it was cleared to 2200hp but not require at this power. These figures alone are not matched by any other engine.
The DB605 at 35 litres was the size of the Griffon, yet never matched the Merlin, and was way off what the 36 litre Sabre regularly ran at. The 605 was beset with lubrication issues as well as deficiency’s with its fuel system. Perhaps the Jumo 213 would have been the best German fighter engine but it was originally developed for bombers and the war had ended before its more advanced versions were produced in meaningful numbers.
The BMW 801 was roughly the same size as the R2600 and a bit larger than the Bristol Hercules. Again the 801 was not seen to be racing ahead of the other 14 cylinder radials on the block.
Forget the nonsense spoken about direct fuel injection. You lost as much as you gained and often more. One of the key features lost with the direct into the cylinder injection of the Germans was the important charge cooling they lost.
I don’t mean to burst the bubble but whilst the Germans had no end of good idea’s they did not have a monopoly on good ideas, and nor did they do the best job of getting all these ideas into effective production. War conditions had an obvious detrimental effect, but it doesn’t account for all that could have been done better.
TempestNutEngines
No matter how partisan you are there is only one answer. RR Merlin. By the way the BMW139 powered the prototype FW190, but was bigger and heavier than the newer 801
TempestNutCOUGH!! SPLUTTER!!! [GNASHES TEETH] 😮
As has been said on here already, RNHF’s policy is to operate the aircraft in as near original configuration as possible. The Centaurus was a very reliable engine in its day. Unfortunately VR930 has suffered from more than her fair share of engine problems, but this isn’t necessarily about the Centaurus in general.
Work is currently underway to remedy the situation once and for all, but she WILL fly again, and with the RIGHT engine fitted up front.
Lee you Guys must have a Friday afternoon engine down there. I once worked for a major engine manufacturer and its amazing what can be manufactured these days in relatively shorts runs at economical cost. Its just the one off setup costs and inevitable paperwork exercise that gets people down. Oh and you need an enthusiastic sponsor. Unfortunately for large Bristols the late Paul Morgan was that person.
I have a family friend who flew over a hundred combat missions with the Sabre in Typhoons, and then he did a tour on the Tempest II and he remembers the Centaurus as a reliable engine, but even the Sabre was OK as long as it was run flat out.
If anyone wants to read compelling tail of woe and company mismanagement, along with army procurement folly then read about the Wright R 3350. The Wright company did more to kill the B29 that the Japanese ever managed. It was only at the wars death when Paul Tibetts refused to fly the first atomic mission until his B29 was fitted with a set of 4 new fuel injected engines, with modified lubrication and other improvements did the B29 become reliable. I’m not sure of the exact facts but I’m sure I read somewhere that the engine was responsible for most B29 losses. Even with the only surviver FiFi they have given up the struggle and are looking to fit a set of four of the later commercial R3350’s from a Constellation I believe. Most US Seafury’s run with Skyraider R3350’s or ex Commercial engines.
Lee as an ex engine engineer I would be very interested in what the root cause of your Centaurus problems are.
TempestNutWas a very “animated” display @ Paris la Ferte:)
Will be good to see some footga e agin once she’s up. I wonder how many pilots on the mainland in Europe would be able to to take a 109 up?
I was lead to believe that there was a momentary loss of control during the display that resulted in a close call (or closer than it should have been) recovery. Lets hope they are a little more circumspect in its operation.
TempestNutSadly, it is the Firefly that left the need for careful moderation when subjects like this come up. There was quite a debate regarding what had been seen. In the middle of it, the brother of one of those killed joined the debate, which made people realise what he must have been going through. It is also important, when reporting details of the acident to the authorities, that what you believe you saw is not coloured by other peoples interpretations of the event. It is the only way that the authorities can come to a coherent conclusion.
The moderators have kept a close eye on this thread, and are grateful to you all for staying within the bounds of good taste.
Bruce (Moderator)
You are correct in what you say there Bruce, it was the Firefly that changed everything. However those that have followed that incident, and witnessed it, could see it coming before it happened and there was a lot of anger (possibly too strong a word) and frustration around about what we had witnessed. And the official findings did not in any way contradict what we had seen. I think this is what made this a turning point.
I was at Shoreham at the weekend but I’m not sure what I saw and thought it was 108 that had gone down, despite having better than 20 20 vision and looking in that general direction. It was also completely out of the blue, and by that I mean the routine appeared easy and open and no one was watching heart in mouth wondering but really just soaking up the sight and sound. And most others on the field I spoke to had not noticed what happened and I think this in part has contributed to the lack of speculation. The incident was quite a way off the field with action over the field at the time that would have held most people’s attention.
Overall I am personally against stopping people from expressing what they saw with the obvious caveats on those that stupid or offensive.
TempestNutYou know there is more oil out there than we have currently used up to this point in time and then some. I was told by a chap in the oil exploration business whom I travelled on the train with every day that some of the early oil fields only had 5% or less of the reserves removed due to the poor technology in use at the time. He said it is entirely feasible to return to many old capped oil wells and with modern methods extracted double or 3 times the original amount of oil. It’s all a matter of cost and technology. Any notion that we will run out of oil globally is not true.
What is barmy is that we waste oil in Power Stations when there are other viable fuels about whereas for transportation needs it fits the bill better than nearly every other method, and should be reserved for that need. On the matter of fuel for Warbirds I think that someone will be able to negotiate a one off run each year with sponsorship with one of the oil companies. They are always looking to save some tax!!!!!!!!!!!
TempestNutWe,for instance, make ethanol from the leftovers from the timber industry…which would normally be left to rot and release it’s CO² anyway. So; nil there. Eh..? No. Someplaces,yes,but not everywhere. We use the forests, the Yanks use corn that would normally,as I understand, become animal feed and come out as CO² and Methane.
But,as you say,the sun has a hand in the heat game. It was warmer in Greenland around year 1000 than it is now. That cannot be blamed on the industry/cars/aviation… Sometimes scientists are so narrowminded they can see through the eye of a sewing needle with both eyes simultanously.. like “gravitational forces between heavenly bodies makes earthquakes everywhere in the solar system…just not on Planet Earth,here it’s just connected to tectonic forces and nothing else. The Moon does nothing,nada,zilch. The quadrillion-ton-heavy ocean rises,but those forces doing that doesn’t touch the land”…riiiight… :diablo:
You raise a valid point about using waste products but I tried to keep the reply simple. Recycling, fuel economy, reducing pollution should all be perused with vigour of course, but as an alternate fuel and a way of reducing the “green-house” effect bio fuels are completely ineffective. No one has published the difference between an engine running on diesel and on bio fuel and shown the comparison charts. If they did the results would not make for good reading. And as all engines are certified running on a very specific fuel which bears no relation to bio fuel I shudder to think what the emissions are like. And fuel economy suffers as the calorific value and specific weights are so different. When they learn how to break down the cellulose waste that is real agricultural or forestry waste without energy input then bio fuel may be produced in sufficient economic quantities that would justify development special engines to take full advantage of the fuel.
TempestNutLook guys, all you have to do is write to your MP and ask some simple but searching questions. Read these links http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html and http://www.global-warming-and-the-climate.com/ and if any of you out there with even a modicum of University science still believe that CO2 is the issue then there is no hope for our education system. You should understand that the whole climate change thing is something we cannot control as change is the normal state of affairs and is being driven by the SUN as it always has been and always will be.
The question I ask is where are the tables of scientific data that back up the climatologists claims about CO2. I have been searching for 12 months now and no one will produce the numbers because the link with CO2 does not exist and the whole thing is based on flawed computer models. Not only those but all the assumptions about the effects of a warming are completely off the wall and not based on any form of fact.
And as someone who worked for the world’s largest manufacturer of diesel engines for 15 year on and off I can tell you all the alternative fuel business again is non scientific nonsense. There was a compelling case for running city buses and city delivery Trucks on gas or maybe duel fuel to control localised pollution levels, particularly NOx and particulates in city areas, but diesel technology has progressed so fast recently that it is easily the best fuel we have at present.
And before anyone yells bio fuel think about this. How much CO2 is produced to produce the bio fuel just to power the machines that produce the bio fuel that allows celebrities to publically ease their consciences and moronic councils and govt departments justify additional jobs. And all this at the expense of the world’s best agricultural land. What’s more the current crop of diesel engines that so much development had gone into to improve fuel economy and cut pollution, do not perform to the same levels on bio fuel, and maintenance issues are not being accurately reported either so operational costs are rising . So you have been warned. So the net effect is actually worse. Muddled non scientific baseless thinking I think sums it up. But of course you are not allowed to say this as you will be accused of ecological vandalism.
This will all come out in the wash in the next few years and especially in light of the extremely cold weather being experienced in the southern hemisphere, so I wouldn’t fret over historic aviation
TempestNutHaving made plans to attend tomorrows display (which I assume is cancelled, unless the power of ‘money’ makes it go ahead), then witnessing the news images, reminds me of so many past years! Fanatical, but wonderful souls investing untold effort and priceless airframes being written off.
I guess the power of the media will ensure a ‘bumper’ crowd on Sunday!
I love an Airshow, but it appalls me the attrition rate and the loss of life.
I salute yet another ‘fallen’ enthusiast who has died bringing pleasure to many of us and reflect on yet another life lost and an airframe sacrificed in the quest to remember our gallant history.
The show continued and is on tomorrow. The accident was way off the field and behind some high ground so had little direct effect on the show. It was announced the the pilot would have wanted the show to go on. I guess we do more to honour his memory by going tomorrow.
TempestNutThe Seafire will be arriving tomorrow (Saturday) morning – my first job of the morning is to help push it out of the hangar! We (Chipmunk) should be there about 1130ish.
This be you then
TempestNutAnyone going to Shoreham this Saturday? If so, look out for a 1939 Denis Fire Engine, and I’ll be on the back. You wont be able to miss me coz I’ll be the youngest by about 150 years :diablo: Bex
I’ll be there all going well. I’ll look you up if I spot the engine. Looks like it will be a nice show and the weather looks good as well. Spotted the B25 flying east along the coast this afternoon and what looked like a Griffon Spitfire (Seafire) yesterday.:D
Sign In
