Let me please correct the impression my perhaps poorly worded reply has left. My intention was first to show that fighting in the East preceded the normally acknowledged start of WWII by more years than the 5 that charliehunt mentioned, and that it didn’t really stop all the fighting as the end of hostilities with Japan left a lot of factions armed with nothing to do but peruse there own agendas. We see this in the Middle East today.

The other point I made was that the more time passes we can see that the sudden end of fighting with Japan by the use of the Atomic bomb is not as significant as people made out at the time and was more politically motivated to stop Russia. Roosevelt was besotted with Stalin and wanted Russia in 1943 to declare war on Japan and open up another front to take the pressure off there struggle in the Pacific. In 1943 Japan had the upper hand and when fighting in the Solomon’s there was precious little air cover from the sea and most of the ship to ship fighting was in favour of the Japanese. I have recently read up on this with newer accounts that have the benefit of released papers. The Great Marianas turkey shoot was in mid 1944 (two plus years after Midway)about the time of the great D Day invasion of Europe and American Sea Power was still only a third or perhaps a quarter of what it became by August 45. The B29 bombing campaign did not get going until well into 45 but by August 45 B29’s flew over Japan unmolested and unescorted. American Submarines didn’t have a decent torpedo until the end of 44 but once they did Japan was blockaded and getting no supplies from Indonesia within weeks. Any notion that the fanatics could have done more than just dent what was arrayed against them is pie in the sky.

Roosevelt’s deputy Harry Truman did not share Roosevelt’s enthusiasm for Stalin, who refused to declare war on Japan for fear Japan would attack. There had been previous skirmish’s started by the out of control lower ranks in the Japanese army with Russia that neither sides upper leadership wanted. As soon as the Bombs dropped Russia declared war and rushed into Manchuria and stripped out every industrial tool in the place before withdrawing, so sharing in the booty without earning it you might say. Some would say perhaps they earnt it on the Eastern front.

As for needing the bomb to stop the war without an invasion, I think enough is now known to dispel this. I’m not passing judgement and saying it was wrong to drop the bomb, as the 2 months of softening up that would have preceded the invasion would have killed far more Japanese than were killed directly or indirectly by the atomic bombs. And indeed several conventional B29 Raids were more destructive than either of the atomic raids.

The lighting in Hendon is poor whether you take photographs or not. I now find it poor and a little frustrating as in common with a lot of people who have had perfect eyesight all their lives, and I still have 20-20 vision, I now need reading glasses and I find the transition from good light to dark is where my eyesight shows its age. My black and white peripheral vision is still OK and I can still see things perfectly in daylight or in darkness as I have always been able to. My optician tells me eyesight is good (above average) but completely typical for my age, (not yet at retirement) and that many people don’t realise how their eyesight changes as they age. So before we dismiss the poor lighting at Hendon (and I’m not complaining just informing) as just a photography issue, think of the older people in the community, many who haven’t been blessed with perfect eyesight, and who’s actual eyesight degrades very quickly in that twilight type light in places such as Hendon. They don’t often complain because they don’t want to draw attention to the fact they are having difficulty seeing the exhibits. For some older people it completely destroys the experience as they have to concentrate more on where they are going than what they came to see We are not after all viewing 500 year old works of art that must be protected from UV, but machines that went to war, most of which have been repainted several times over, and currently wear dubious representations of their original colours.

Not meaning to offend anyone, but to me it seems totally daft to disassemble Spitfire P9374 take it to London, reassemble it and then disassemble it to go ????. Surely some who has the money and where withal to purchase this aeroplane doesn’t need to see it in London. Just a thought.

Game set and match! Is anyone seriously in doubt that this incident is extremely dangerous? Also, for Moggies benefit, I’m not at all confused but the fulminating that is going on here because I have had the temerity to be critical of Karwowski is showing that he and others are so tied up in the romance of flying that they are blind to the issues raised.

And again, Neil Williams was a great display pilot.

Regards

Orion You seem very confused to me. Do you have the benefit of any combat experience? I have personally known one Of Stefan Hunter Squadron mates most of my adult life, and my wife knew Stefan personally during the time he flew Hunters in the Middle East. The thing is when I watched him and others fly at air shows during the 80’s I never had that feeling of “oh god what’s he doing” I sometimes get at some of todays displays, despite all the regulations. They always looked totally in control. Yes accidents happen, but I have witnessed 2 accidents where so called display pilots lost control whilst turning at the end of the display line. And yes there were the Don Bullocks of this world who pushed large aircraft too far. But rather than fulminating some of us have a lifetime of watching air shows and rather know what we are talking about, or more precisely what we are looking at.

If the true casualty toll was around 6900 (probably nearer 22,500 to 25,000) then it changes somewhat what ‘Dresden’ has become today. The argument really is that bombing Dresden achieved nothing for the Allies except the pointless destruction of a beautiful city and the unnecessary loss of life.

The inference is, of course, that no harm was done to the German war-effort and that the war would have proceeded exactly as it did if Dresden had not been bombed; weren’t the Russians just outside the city gates anyway and just walked-in a few days later without any resistance?

Well, no; Dresden was still in German hands until the 8th May (after Berlin had fallen at a cost of over 80,000 Russian dead and 250,000 wounded) and was actually bombed several more times by the USAAF until the middle of April 1945.

Creaking Door On whose evidence do you think the casualties were 25000? Before my first post I pulled my copy of Dresden by Frederick Taylor, the only study of this raid that has had access to all the records. I didn’t quote his figure because I just knew everyone who has not read the only accurate account of this raid would jump down my throat. However when quoting numbers you have to be able to back up what you say with evidence, and the actual evidence suggests a far lower casualty count making the raid but a shadow of Hamburg and many others. It matters little what the “accepted” figure is, accepted is not actual.

Its time everyone got over Dresden, for you can’t say the other raids were justified but Dresden was somehow different. It wasn’t other than the raid was like a training mission in perfect visibility from 10,000 feet or less with no flak. That just 1 bomber group was able to destroy the target was not the fault of the RAF but as a result of all the sacrifice to get Germany to the point it was. As I mentioned before the main force comprising all but 5 Group bombed the industrial area not the briefed Target the railway station as the master bomber considered the primary target destroyed. Dresden has been used politically for the last 70 years and as a result 99% of what’s written about it has been bull of the most disgraceful kind.

Whenever the subject of Dresden comes up people invariably forget verifiable facts, they forget circumstance and the don 20-20 hindsight, which is not a particularly envied human trait. War is terrible and often pointless, perhaps always pointless. A soul lost in Dresden is worth no more or less that any of the casualties of any war.

Firstly the Dresden casualty numbers. No one knows the true number, but it is likely way less than all the wild estimates. German records were not that complete towards the end of the war, many original inhabitants had already left for one reason or another. The original source of the inflated figures was Goebbels, and this was followed up by the Russians who thought that they could may hay out of painting the allies as terror bombers and themselves as liberators. Idiots like Irving just repeated this misinformation and was in no way the source anything.

As for the raid it was identical to all the others carried out that winter on the eastern cities with several circumstantial differences that allowed very accurate bombing. Of all the raids on the eastern cities in 1945 this was the only one with clear skies. There was no flak, all the 88’s had been rushed to the eastern front then only a few miles away. There were no night fighters and as a result no defences for the city. The aiming point was the railway station as the object of the raid was to block troop and refugee movement.

The RAF split the raid into a 5 group only first wave with their own pathfinders, and then 1,3,4, and 6? Groups arrived with 8 group pathfinders some hours later and the master bomber shifted the focus of that raid to the industrial area. Because it was clear and there were no defenses the bomber descended to quiet low level to improve accuracy and concentration. 5 group achieved 100% of the raids objectives and the second raid was really not needed.

Most of those who could be classified as Dresden inhabitants suffocated in their basements because they were not schooled as the inhabitants of Western Germany were in not waiting for the all clear but listening for the first sign of Raid receding and getting out of their basements and into the attics with buckets of sand to put the incendiaries out. They were also subject to a curfew which Western Germans ignored. There were only 2 air raid shelters in Dresden, one under the Nazi Party HQ and the other under the Nazi Party Leaders house. Of those who were transient many perished in the fire but significant numbers took to the river. Many thousands fled the city and this is where the inflated numbers come from.

There is much more to learn about this raid, which but for some freak weather and no defenses could have been just like all the other winter 1945 raids.

I think the 2 Mossies’ and Blenheim flew together the day before the Biggin show but the B35 went technical for the show