TempestNutIs there any truth in a statement I heard the other day, that the Tempest II’s design was partly influenced by British engineers having access to a captured Fw 190.
Or is this an urban legend?
Airframe generally no, engine installation yes some, and in particular the close cowling and exhaust system. The Tornado did all the early testing of the Centaurus, the biggest issue being as with all the big Radial 18’s vibration. Beyond this it was obvious that having a traditional front collector ring for the exhaust was not particularly aerodynamic, and many issues were experienced with it including overheating and gas ingestion.
The Tempest prototypes initially flew with the Sabre as we know, but the preferred production type was the Tempest I with a Sabre 4 and close cowled engine and wing radiators. The Sabre 4 was not ready so the Sabre II with the same arrangement as the Typhoon was used.
Now the Tempest II did not have a direct copy of the FW190 engine installation, far from it. Remember we had access to aircraft such as the Corsair that superficially at least was of a similar arrangement to the 190 with its exhausts exiting to the rear and no heavy collector ring. But the real lesson of the 190 was the closeness of the cowl, the innovative oil cooler and the way the exhausts were routed to the rear so that they maximised thrust and aided cooling by helping cooling air through the cowling. It also had a cooling fan that increased the air pressure to improve cooling.
It must be remembered the Centaurus introduced innovations on how the cooling fins where cut into the cylinder barrels that allowed for more efficient cooling, and together with the extremely close cowling allowed the Tempest to have an installation that rivalled that of the best of the in-line engines for drag.
So the 190 influenced the Tempest, but there was little other than a superficial resemblance at the end of the day. Makes for a good story though.
TempestNutThe narative was pretty good I thought on balance. That said I found the “Churchill approved the Dresden attack” comment strange. Since the directive to hit either Liepzig, Chemnitz or Dresden came from him via Portal to Harris.
The decision to bomb Dresden was entirely political, at the behest of the Russians, which was mentioned in the program. I believe that Harris would not have bombed Dresden had he not been ordered to by Portal, with encouragement by Churchill. Harris however unjustly in my opinion gets all the blame, but I look at it this way. He was asked to do a dirty job, for which he accepted responsibility. He bore this responsibly like few other commanders during the war, and deserved more than the shoddy treatment from politicians. Some things never change.
The thing to remember about the Dresden raid was that there was nothing unusual about it from a planning point of view as compared with many other late war raids. Perhaps only that 5 group were by then operating as an independent force and bombed separately (earlier) than the main force using its own pathfinders. It was factors such as the local populations preparedness for a raid, and that there were only 2 shelters in the whole town, available only to party officials, that played a crucial role in the number of deaths.
For the RAF, the appalling weather in the 44/45 winter cleared over Dresden that night, all the AA guns had all been shipped to the Russian front, and the few night fighter still available were kept at bay, so the bombers were able to bomb from a lower level and concentration was achieved. It is a fact that 5 group had done the job and the rest of the main-force was unnecessary. However there was no means of ascertaining this fact in time to recall the main-force, let alone a mechanism for doing so. Even the number of deaths is exaggerated and the raid was nowhere near as destructive as those on Hamburg.
TempestNutAround the time of the Biggin Hill air show, and the weekend the first blenheim crashed at Denham. We were meant to get a three ship flypast but the B35 went technical
TempestNutAs mentioned above it is quite possible that the Germans chose the inverted V route on the basis of thinking that was what RR was going to do after seeing a mock up some time.
Despite popular myth that the DB was a superior engine it in fact was a strange mix of advanced tech – direct into cylinder fuel injection – and out of date design such as needle roller bearings on the big-ends. The DB605 in the 109G was 35 litres, and comparable in weight and size to the Griffon of 37 litres, rather than the 27 litres of the Merlin. The Jumo 211 and 213 especially were more advanced engines, both being 35 litres.
Truth be told the DB engines would have been better off being upright and not inverted. Amongst the many issue with the engine, was a weakness with the big-ends, and aeration of the oil causing big-end failure, a rod out the side of the block, and fire feed by hot oil. Quite a number of Luftwaffe pilots were lost to big-end failure, and resultant fire, and it has continued to this day in the DB605 powered Bouchons, fortunately without loss. Also the excessive oil splash from the big-ends was responsible for the asymmetric compression ratios. More oil would reach one bank due to the rotation of the crank and this would be enough to alter the detonation limit requiring a slightly lower compression ratio.
The direct fuel injection was also as much of a disadvantage as an advantage, in that the engines lost much benefit from the lowering of intake temperature buy having the fuel injected into the eye of the supercharger. This was why water injection was used to boost power below the rated altitude of the engine. The other method of ensuring no detonation was to make the mixture very rich. This lead to a trail of black smoke and many a combat report contains claims for damage or loss on this basis when in fact no damage was done. The direct fuel injection was not as efficient as the injection type of carburettor used in Allied aircraft reducing the range of the aircraft.
TempestNutI think you are getting confused. Tsunami was a purpose built racer that never had conta rotating props and took the life of its owner John Sandberg due to flap failure in 1991.
The crash that Steve Hinton survived was of the Red Baron in 1979, due to engine failure, and that was a modified P-51 with contra rotating props.Richard
I believe the Red Barron had a Griffon in it, hence the contra props.
TempestNutThe lack of fire may have been a combination of factors. As others have mentioned GG had an evaporation cooling system and ADI so carried a lot of water. The other factor was the foam in the tanks that is designed to prevent fire in the case of accidents. Some of the photos show this foam coloured blue has scattered far and wide well beyond the fatal zone. Many who where there report being covered in avgas and or water.
The other hard to quantify comments that I have picked up is that Mustangs have a reputation for not burning. We saw this at first hand this year at Duxford, but whether it is fact or not is for others with more knowledge to enlighten us.
What ever we must be thankful there was no fireball as that could have mad this tragic situation much worse.
TempestNutI don’t want to sound insensitive but why is this in the Historic?? there is already a thread in the modern military.
Not looking good for the poor guy…or gal 🙁
http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9207595.UPDATED__Red_Arrow_crashes_near_Bournemouth_Airport/
Perhaps also its because no one can get on that forum.
TempestNutThis forum is defiantly NOT the place to discuss the effect of radio active fallout or the effects of any form of radiation. After Fucushima I decided to gather all the information about this subject I could. I approached the subject with an open mind and decided I would make my decision based on factual evidence.
All I can say at this point is, we don’t understand radiation and its effects, except for high doses that cause immediate effects, low doses seem to be beneficial, although no one is prepared to say so, but it makes sense seeing as life evolved under a huge radiation ball. The safety levels for nuclear workers are often lower than you and I get in our every day lives. The rest of the information is either tainted with politics or rejected out of hand as not conforming with popular consensus, and therefore almost impossible to dig out.
So, much like just about everything else in our world today we can’t get to the truth and make progress because of dogma, and the fear that those that may have been effected by nuclear tests will sue the current generation for their problems. Maybe it will be children’s childrens generation that will finally start making progress again.
TempestNutMiss Helen has thankfully returned to the skies and recently appeared at the AAC Airday at Robs Lamplough’s home in East Garston.A short video of the day’s action can be seen on the following link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwgYAuEXtfQ.
That very good news. Lets hope they have no more serviceability issues with that Merlin.
TempestNutI thought that the Blenheim may have hit the fence/hedge first damaging its undercarriage.
TempestNutIf you had enough money a completely new Merlin or Griffon or Centaurus could easily be made. There are still plenty of manufacturers capable of doing it and they could produce it to exactly the same standards as the original. Just look where most of the F1 teams are based.
Today’s manufacturing processes are infinitely better at short runs, and also of a better quality than the past. A crank in an F1 engine at 20,000 rpm is under far more stress than a Merlin crank. Provided the Manufacturer can satisfy the CAA that the components are manufactured to the correct standards then why would they not certify it. All the hot highly stressed parts such as pistons,rings valves and bearings get routinely replaced with new manufactured parts, unless some one has a big fat stock of “new” old parts.
TempestNutIsn’t it the same merlin that’s in the shuttleworth hurricane? Has more of a whine? I’m not a Spitfire fan unless it’s griffin powered, really wish sum1 over here would bring back G-FIRE 😀 but having seen the mk1 up close it is a stunning job, really like the black/White undersides, has me really hoping the mk1 Blenheim has the really early scheme with the serial under the wings & the large yellow, blue, White & red markings on the topsides.
Hurricane Mk1 R4118 has a Merlin III. Not sure about the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane
TempestNutI think its the P & W engined example that performed here last year.
I think and stand to be corrected that this Seafury has the Wright R3350 which has until recently been the std replacement for the Centaurus. P&W R2800’s are not as powerful as the original Bristol or Wright
TempestNut131 pages and nothing new… come on guys either you love it and donate or hate it and keep your money…
Thank you Peter. Why oh why can’t we all just enjoy it whilst we can. The way things are going we may not have an airforce at all in a couple of years. 🙁
For those that moan, turn your energies into some constructive coherent thought and write to your MP about something that really matters. Lets leave the aviation board to those who try and enjoy this departure from our everyday lives.
TempestNutNice shots. So what will be the Legends weather ?? 🙂
Rain Saturday:(, Rain Sunday:(. So I guess it will be fine 😀
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