e-dogSounds like someone is trying to get people to help him figure out a way that a ship might see a Raptor at 150 miles. You do get bonus points for having read the naval order of battle for JTFEX 09-4, though.
Oh yeah sure! I’m working for the Russian and Chinese governments and my mission is to infiltrate this forum and use your intellect to find a way to detect the super stealthy F-22 Raptor from a naval vessle.
Talk about paranoia.
Yeah right, thanks for that part. Now it makes sense…
Are you trying to be funny too?
IT–
e-dogUSA becoming 2nd largest economy=imminent invasion ??
Sorry for missing the obvious but by what country if i mite ask ?
I did not say that the reason for a possible invasion will be an economical weakness.
And you are not missing “the obvious”.
It’s more of a feeling/intuition and I cannot support that with arguments. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m not. We’ll see what’ll happen in the future..
So sorry, I’m going to end this offtopic talk since it will only end in a flamewar/bashing.
Just disregard my previous post and please stay on topic 😉
IT–
e-dogHi “E-dog’ and Welcome to the forum !
Those are some of the nicest F-16 photos I’ve seen. #1 is beautiful and of course, being an American, I am partial to photo #3 showing the US flag !!
Thanks for sharing those.
FROGMAN
Thank you for the welcome FROGMAN! Have a nice day/evening 😀
Nice pics indeed, but…. as typed previously, (while small – within NATO – there are even smaller within) the KLu doesn’t meet the thread’s req’s – predominantly the obscure, smaller and underpublicised.
You are right, I apologize 🙂
Peru MiG-29
Those are some very very nice pictures. Thanks for sharing! Do you have more where those came from?
IT–
e-dogThey’re replacing/supplementing things as diverse as the A10 as well.
Keep in mind that maintaining total air dominance over a hostile nation is a lot different to defending from an invasion (that will never come). And the thousands of old F15’s and F16’s don’t exactly become useless, just less useful and likely to ensure a win. And no one else is near to fielding a realistic competitor to F35 either.
It is a gamble, but it is more likely that the US will not be fighting an opponent with very high tech. planes in large numbers in a large scale conflict any time soon, so the US govt. has decided to end production and save some money. Even the US doesn’t have infinite money.
Offtopic:
With all due respect Grim, You can never be sure that the USA will not be invaded.
TBH I can see WW3 happening very soon, especially with this financial crisis and the multiple Trillion USD debt that the USA has to China alone.
Another war in the middle east could escalate really quickly.
I dont think that Russia, China and Iran are really happy with the occupation of 2 nations very very very close to them.
Let me be clear, I HOPE IT NEVER HAPPENS< I LOVE the USA (Although I dislike its government) and I would hate to see something happen to it.
I know quite a few people from the USA and i dont care what people say about them, they are a very noble (And in my own personal experience) generous people.
But the fact is, an invasion of the USA seems very likely to me. The USA is losing its role as number 1 economical and military superpower in the world.
Just be prepared. I just hope The Netherlands (Where I live) will be on the GOOD SIDE if a war really erupts.
IT–
e-dogSo the LCF didn’t actually engage the 2 targets at anything like 150 miles, they did it within range of ESSMs and with only enough time to get 2 shots off?
And these LCFs are air defense frigates? Do they not have any longer ranged armaments to deal with targets towards the edge of detection range? It’s all well and good saying that they can detect things really far out if they can’t do anything about it until the enemy is right on top of them. How exactly can they defend a Carrier like that?
The LCF posesses 2 types of AA missiles if I’m not mistaking.
The ESSM (Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile), a Mach 4 missile, which has a range of about 50KM.
And the SM-2 IIIA (Rim-66) Which has a range of about 100-140KM. <— Correction, It seems that the range is between 74 and 170 KM.
Again I am not someone who has ALL the information.
At what range the F-22’s were engaged both times, at what range the F-22’s expended their ammo and at what range they got shot down are all unknown to me.
I also do not know what the exact scenario was at that exact time.
I don’t know who and/or what the LCF was engaging at that time (aside from the F-22’s), what possible malfunctions there were etc. etc.
But I think that the fact that the LCF used ESSM’s instead of SM-2’s indicates that the LCF did not achieve a (good) radar lock on the F-22’s at the maximum range of the missile. The F-22’s had to come closer than 50KM and I think that’s why ESSM’s were used and not SM-2’s.
Of course it can also be that the SM-2’s Semi Active radar could not achieve a lock and ESSM’s were used because their guidance also includes a datalink?
The LCF is a highly advanced air-defense frigate.
Its weapons include:
Anti Air Missiles
Anti Air CIWS system
Anti Ship Harpoons
Anti Ship Torpedoes
A 127mm Naval Artillery gun/canon
Electronic Warfare capability (ECM and I THINK, although Im not sure ECCM)
IT–
e-dogThat is one extreme weak reason to stop the production of the USA’s first line of defense in case of an invasion.
Very very bad judgment!
I really think that the F-22’s role will be an important one in the future.
Let’s just hope some people in DC get their heads out of the sand and make some good decisions for a change.
IT–
e-dogmaybe i’m not understanding the situation, but . . .
allowing planes within gun range of your boat = automatic fail
No, this is how it went… you kinda misunderstood (AND I REALLY HOPE I AM NOT SAYING TOO MUCH.. THIS IS CLASSIFIED AS FAR AS I KNOW!!! SO KEEP IT IN THIS FORUM PLEASE!!!).
The F-22’s approached the LCF with the intent to engage (Bombing-run? I think so).
The LCF fired 2 ESSM’s on the F-22’s but the Raptors managed to survive (Dont ask how. evade/chaff/flare, jam, fry, luck???).
The F-22’s deployed their munition on the LCF but they (The Bombs) were destroyed by the ships GOALKEEPER CIWS Gun System.
The Raptors turned around and made a pretty daring… Some would even call it suicidal move (Which it turned out to be).
Yes, they engaging the LCF with their guns. The LCF fired 2 ESSM’s again and this times the Raptors didn’t survive.
The simulated bullet impacts posed no real threat to the LCF, only a few rounds hit the ship.
Remember, the Nimitz and LCF were both engaged by multiple threats at the same time, and the LCF’s main objective was to protect the Nimitz Class from any areal threats. (Fighter jets, Missiles etc.)
But this is not the point, what I want to know is HOW the LCF detected the F-22’s 150 miles out to begin with?
IT–
e-dogNo offense, e-dog, but what exactly is your source for this, and how sure are you of its accuracy?
My source is an officer on the dutch LCF who participated in the exercise.
I am 100% sure that my source is not being deceptive. However, I cannot be 100% sure that the information he has received from his superiors is 100% accurate. but that’s a whole other thing.
The Information in this post was witnessed by him first-hand (Other things he has told me are maybe less accurate but as I said, that has nothing to do with this specific info).
IT–
e-dogThales makes such amazin radars, Very lucky to avoid 2 ESSM, Aster would hit a 100% record!
Yeah they are pretty good at what they do but I doubt everything Thales makes is 100% dutch :p
By the way, here’s some pretty interesting info I pulled from the web a while ago. Though I don’t know how accurate it is…
Western Fighter Tracking Capabilities (Radar)
APG-77 AESA(F-22A):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 35 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 112 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 200 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 300 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 355 km+CAESAR AESA(EF-2000 Tranch3, post-2015 with 1,500 T/Rs):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 18~21 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 32~38 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 104~122 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 185~216 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 278~324 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 330~385 km+APG-63 V2/V3/V4 AESA(F-15C/E/SG):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 14~19 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 25~33 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 81~104 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 144~185 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 215~278 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 255~330 km+APG-81 AESA(F-35A/B/C):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 28 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 160 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 240 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 285 km+APG-79 AESA(F/A-18E/F and EA-18G, Block 2 and 3):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 13 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 22 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 72 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 128 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 192 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 228 km+CAPTOR(EF-2000 Tranch 1 and 2):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 12 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 22 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 70 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 124 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 185 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 220 km+RBE-2 AESA(Rafale F4, post-2012):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 11~13 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 20~23 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 62~73 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 110~130 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 165~195 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 195~230 km+APG-80 AESA(F-16E):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 11 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 62 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 110 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 165 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 195 km+NOAR AESA(JAS-39 C/D PLUS, post-2013):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 10~11 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 18~20 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 56~62 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 100~110 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 150~165 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 178~195 km+APG-63(F-15C):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 9 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 51 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 135 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 160 km+RBE-2 PESA(Rafale F1/F2/F3):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 7~9 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 13~15 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 41~49 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 73~87 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 110~130 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 130~154 km+APG-73(F/A-18E/F, Block1):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 5~6 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 10~11 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 32~36 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 56~64 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 84~96 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 100~114 km+PS-05A(JAS-39 A/B/C/D):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 5~6 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 9~10 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 27~32 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 48~56 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 72~84 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 85~100 km+APG-68 V9(F-16 C/D/I)and RDY-2(M2000-5MK2 and -9):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 4~5 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 8~9 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 25~30 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 46~54 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 66~80 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 78~95 km+RDY(M2000-5):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 4~5 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 7~8 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 22~27 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 40~47 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 60~70 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 70~84 km+APG-68 V5(F-16 C/D):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 3~4 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 6~7 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 18~22 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 32~40 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 50~60 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 60~72 km+APG-67 V4(T-50):
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 3~4 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 5~6 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 17~20 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 30~36 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 45~53 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 53~63 km+
Also:
B-52 Bomber 100 m2 bomber range x1
F-4, A-10 25 m2 bomber x 0.71, fighter x 1.5
B-1B Bomber 10 m2 bomber x 0.56, fighter x 1.19
Tornado 8 m2 fighter x 1.12
Generic fighter 5 m2 fighter range x 1
MiG-21 3 m2 fighter x 0.88
F-16C/18C w. reduced RCS 1.2 m2 fighter x 0.7
F-18E, Rafale 0.75 m2 fighter x 0.62
Eurofighter 0.25-0.75 m2 fighter x 0.47-0.62
Exocet, Harpoon missile 0.1 m2 fighter x 0.38
JSF (‘golf ball sized’) 0.005 m2 fighter x 0.18
F-117, B-2, F-22 0.0001 m2 fighter x 0.07
F-117, B-2 F-22 also given as 0.01-0.001 m2, ‘marble sized’ or fighter x 0.12-0.21
F-22 RCS requirement was 1/1000th the F-15. This has probably be exceeded by a large margin. Even if the F-15 RCS is a large 25 m2, the F-22 is 0.025 m2 worst case (fighter x 0.26).
As can be seen ‘stealthy’ aircraft aim to reduce opposition situation awareness by decreasing detection range.
e-dogi could have sworn that the F117 was a good bit more stealthy than the F22, i thought the F22 was only supposed to have a 50/55% RCS reduction as opposed to the F117 which was closer to 80%?
I don’t know, from what I’ve read the F-117’s RCS is comparable with a small bird which is about 0.01 and 0.001m2.
The F-22’s RCS is comparable with a glass marble….
The range of the diameter for a glass marble is from 12mm to about 42 mm which translates to an RCS from 0.0001m2 to 0.0014m2,
I remember reading a very good article written by a retired engineer who used to work for the USAF, about stealth technology used in the F-22 and F-117 but I dont remember where I read it.
The article explained how the F-117’s stealth tech was outdated compared to the F-22 and there were some very interesting calculations and theories about the F-22’s frontal RCS in that article.
For example, he claimed that the F-22’s Front RCS was much smaller than 0.025m2 (which was the requirement for the F-22’s which is 1/1000th of that of the F-15).
This is all of course speculation since the real info we need is classified.
But I think it’s fair to assume that because of advancements in (stealth) technology, the F-22 has had some advantages in its build compared to the Nighthawk.
IT–
e-dogIts my understanding that the F22 isnt a full stealth aircraft and wasnt designed to be invisible as such, but rather an aircraft with stealthy traits that helped reduce its radar return?
something along those lines anyway 🙂 id imagine most decent radar systems would be capable of picking them up but be unable to identify the aircraft until it was too late??
You are right, Stealth does not mean Invisibility, It just means that your radar return will be very very very small if the object is far away (150 Miles is pretty far..)
But as far as I know, the Raptor should be able to slip into a country undetected, carry out its mission and get away safely…
I could be completely wrong though, since it’s primary goal is air superiority…
The F-117 has done its mission pretty well while it’s less stealthy compared to the Raptor.
If I’m not mistaking, the F-22’s RCS should be less than 0.015m^2.
It should not have been detected 150 Miles out, it makes me wonder what kind of frequency the LCF’s radars were operating on, to not only detect the F-22’s but also see how far out they were.
I’ve read that stealth is rendered useless in lower frequencies, maybe this was the method used? Or IRST?
IT–
e-dogThis is my first post on this forum although I have been lurking here for quite some time now.
I really like the discussions here so I decided to join.
Here are some Pics of Dutch F-16’s, Enjoy!
I didnt post the images as images because they are way too big, and they don’t resize automatically on this forum.
IT– Cheers
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