My two pennies worth: Picture of a wreckage in Serbia of an aircraft later identified as an F117 by two journalists from two different locations. One picture shows a tail clearly showing that it did not have F117 camo but looked very like an F15 tail… only one aircraft was admitted to have been downed by the US.

If you saw the image yourself then you need a course in aircraft recognition! The journalists couldn’t ident it either and this was the result in Le Parisien:

(It wasn’t photographed in Serbia, but in Bosnia)

The aircraft in the image is one of the two Yugoslav MiG-29s shot down on the 26 March 1999.

TJ

The J-10’s codename is Firefly.

It is still to be assigned an ASCC designator.

TJ

F-16 picture not a myth because the aircraft was indeed shot down your own words,

Sigh, It was simply a comment on the F-16 engine wreckage picture and a follow on from the MiG thread for continuity. Simple as that. Why did you even post it?

MiG-29 picture not a Myth because the original pictures came from the western Media claiming it as MiG-29 but the Serbians claimed no Serb MiG-29 has letters in English however Western Media claimed as a MiG-29 i said it was fake however i have no the complete image to say it was an F-15C Fuel Tank image or German MiG-29 wreckage to affirm any thing beyond what i read, in fact some reports claimed that the western Media assumed it was a German MiG-29 the only aircraft according to them that had letters in english.

The ‘Fake MiG’ picture is definately a myth. It has been used by countless individuals and groups who use it as proof of an F-15 having been shot down. They attribute the F-15 kill to Lt Col Peric on the 26 March 1999. The media are at fault because despite the video footage they couldn’t be bothered to take the time and get some confirmation on the wreckage they found. They just assumed that it was from the Yugoslav aircraft downed over Bosnia. It went out as that and so the myth started. CNN, Sky News still have the ‘Annual Inspection’ footage labelled as ‘MiG-29’ wreckage because they no no better. Also bear in mind that some exported Soviet aircraft do indeed have English stencils on them to further cloud the story. It simply snowballed from there. It wasn’t until first light the next day that one of the MiG-29s was filmed. Still individuals claimed that they were not even Yugoslav.

One of the reasons why it is a myth: Note how the creator even links in the F-15 venting fuel to the 26 March wreckage?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/fakemig.htm

I wonder where you got the ‘German MiG-29 wreckage’ idea from? Apologies if you didn’t, but here was another myth that started doing the rounds:

http://www.vojvodina.com/other-pages/natodown.htm

“Two more MiG-29s were shot down by NATO SAMs over Bosnia. The crash site of one of the two MiGs was shown on BBC. At least one of the two MiG-29s downed over Bosnia appears to have inscriptions in English on the fuselage, including an “Annual Inspection” sign. The two MiGs are believed to be of NATO origin (either American or German) used on some kind of special mission and shot down by friendly forces by mistake. NATO denies that this was a friendly fire incident but is very vague on providing any details of the incident. The whereabouts of the MiG-29 pilots are unknown.”

Flogger, when I get time I’ll post some further images of the F-15 fuel tank remains.

TJ

Hopefully we can put to bed the myths surrounding the ‘F-15 shot down’ and ‘Annual Insp C/W’ images that Flogger posted on the ‘MiG’ thread. Why do I feel like I’m banging my head against a brick wall? Goodness knows what Flogger will respond with?

Flogger wrote:

On the Pictures you can see an F-16 wreckage in Serbia, an F-15 shot down in Yugoslavia over Sarajevo Bosnia the story comes from the newspaper Vojska and a MiG-29 wreckage with writings in english what made many think this is just a fake

The image of the F-16 engine?

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=69713&stc=1&thumb=1

This is from F-16CG 88-0550. This was brought down by the 250th Air Defence Rocket Brigade on the 2nd May 1999. The remains of this aircraft are now in the Yugoslav Aeronautical Museum. The pilot was rescued from inside Serbia. The pilot nearly managed to coax 88-0550 out of Serbian airspace, but the combat damaged engine quit and he was forced to eject..

Image of the F-15:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=69714&stc=1&thumb=1

Flogger pick up a cutaway drawing of an F-15 and tell me where the fuel vent pipes are located on the wings. Have you ever seen an aircraft dump/vent fuel? That is exactly what you are seeing on this still. Only the likes of Venik can turn it into an aircraft on fire or blowing smoke!

Captain Spinetta of the 493rd FS takes up the story:

“Early in the crisis, news organizations, reported seeing two F-15 Eagles divert into Tuzla with ‘battle damage’. They reported seeing ‘smoke’ as the aircraft came in for an emergency landing. Quite untrue! Don’t believe everything you read in newspapers and magazines that covered the conflict. The two F-15’s (from my squadron – the 493rd Fighter Squadron, ‘The Grim Reapers’, based at RAF Lakenheath) were dumping fuel to reduce their gross weight so they could land because of a small mechanical problem. One jet made a precautionary landing because a back-up hydraulic pump had ceased to function. The other jet went along for mutual support. Fighters never go anywhere alone.

Because they wanted to deter any expansion of the conflict to Bosnia, the Army quickly pointed out to the news media that the F-15s were not flying combat missions out of Camp Eagle. The only folks stationed at Camp Eagle were ‘Stabilization Forces’ (SFOR). The Army stressed that their sole function was to ensure peace and stability in Bosnia. They were not involved with any fighting in Kosovo and did not want any hostilities to expand into their area of responsibility.

We flew maintenance troops into Camp Eagle to fix the jets quickly. I happened to be flying a combat air patrol mission overhead when they took-off. The Camp Eagle commander, an army general, wanted to give a morale boost to his troops so he encouraged our pilots to make a maximum performance take-off. To accomplish this, you accelerate on the deck to 400-plus knots before pulling the jet skywards. You stand the aircraft on its tail and watch the world get small as you accelerate in the vertical. The Army commander emphasized this was a ‘tactical’ departure. Occasionally, he said, tensions still flared up. You can never be sure that all shoulder-launched SAM’s have been removed from circulation. So, he ‘ordered’ the Eagle pilots to avoid the potential threat, the only option being a vertical climb to avoid flying over the base perimeter. The two Eagle pilots were happy to indulge the general’s request. As they executed their max performance takeoffs, each pumped out a string of chaff and flares. Apparently, the sound and light show was better than the last ten Guy Fawkes fireworks displays combined. I watched their take-off from my CAP overhead and can attest they were impressive.

Unfortunately, the flares started a small brush fire off the end of the runway. After all the Army’s hospitality, we paid it back by setting their base ablaze. One of the pilots felt guilty and called back to the base. Rather than being angry, the Army commander was ecstatic. He was happy his troops got a little entertainment. He said the fire crews needed something to do anyway to break up the monotony of peacekeeping. Someone of the ground took a few pictures of the takeoffs and converted them into screen-savers for their computers.”

‘MiG-29 wreckage with writing in english’:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=69715&stc=1&thumb=1

Flogger, that my friend is the remains of an F-15 external fuel tank (600 gallon) from the air combat that took place on 26th March 1999 over Bosnia. Captain Hwang flew F-15C serial 86-0156 and Captain McMurray flew F-15C, serial 84-0014. The two USAF F-15s were on a Deny Flight patrol over Bosnia when they detected two MiG-29s heading towards them from Serbian airspace. They engaged the two MiG-29s flown by Major Peric and Captain Radosavljevic (wingman). Captain Hwang flying 86-0156 was accredited with both MiG-29 kills with two of his AMRAAMs. Major Peric successfully ejected and escaped and evaded through the Republic of Srpska. Captain Radosavljevic was unfortunately killed in combat. Both MiG-29s came down in Bosnia. The more intact of the two airframes was threat evaluated by the US military. The cockpit/nose was near intact and both MiGs fell with their R-73s and R-27s albeit a bit bent. Part of one of the MiGs is now in the ready room of the 493rd at RAF Lakenheath, England.

As both F-15 pilots closed on the two MiG-29s they combat jettisoned their external tanks. A Reuters news team found at least one of the combat jettisoned tanks and produced a near 4 minute video. Unfortunately the footage ran around the world as being wreckage from a MiG-29. It wasn’t until first light the following day that the same Reuters team filmed the first of the MiG-29s that came down in Bosnia. The English stencil is simply “ANNUAL INSP C/W” (Annual Inspection) (C/W stands for Complied With). The video is near four minutes long and shows close ups of the tank fins, vent/feed pipes and manufacturers welded plate stating ‘600 US gallons’. That single still went all round the Internet on some web sites as ‘proof positive’ that an F-15 had been shot down. Venik still has this one single still on his webpage and refuses to upload any other images from the video that shows nothing more than a 600 gallon fuel tank. He even gave an F-15 kill to Major Peric. Major Peric gave an interview in which he divulged that neither he or his wingman fired any missiles during the engagement. I even offered to Venik a copy of the tape a few years ago. Not surprisingly he didn’t take me up on the offer. He even ignores the existence of Lt Col Peric’s interview.

From Captain Hwang’s account:

“About this time, both Boomer (TJ note; Boomer is Captain McMurray) and I got good ID on the target in our own cockpit and, with threat hot towards us inside 30 nm, decided to blow off the AWACS/clearance-to-engage restriction and go for it! Target was now inside 30 nm, and I directed Boomer to target the single group. I broke lock and went back to search in 40-nm scope and 120 sweep. The target check turns towards northwest (about 14L aspect) and descends to high teens. Boomer and I checked about 30¡ left to northeast for cutoff. This check turn slung me aft in the formation, so I stroke it up to full AB to get more line abreast. I called “Combat 1, arm hot” and saw Boomer’s wing tanks come off with bright flames under the wing. Pretty impressive! I was well over the Mach when I punched my tanks off, and the jet jumped up abruptly (you can see it in the HUD). Took a quick look back to see if my stabs were still intact,…. “

TJ

Rather than thinking about the military difficulty of striking Iran for the Israeli AF, you may want to consider the political difficulty.
They’d have to go through US-controlled Iraq. Who would either resist the strike (and that is one difficulty: whether it can be done or not, Israel does not want to kill US troops) or would be “an accomplice” to the strike. And that is a bigger difficulty.

IMO if the strike happens, it will be cruise missiles from the recently-modified subs.

But then again, to make sense, it would prolly have to be a nuke strike. Well deserved and all, maybe, but still raising other political difficulties…

The West probably no longer has the balls to eliminate its enemies. It will cost freaking dear someday, but that’s where we’re at.

You are forgetting that the Israelis could force their way through Saudi airspace. This is more likely than using Iraqi airspace.

TJ

Ehem.

IIRC, there WAS an exercise in which F-16’s with AWACS faced MiG-23’s. The soviet fighters sneaked on the merrikans planes throught EOS (russian IRST) and “shot them down”.

We’ll need a bit more than ‘IIRC’ for such a story!

TJ

At the same time it could be interesting to see captured aircraft pictures!!!
In an old issue I saw a B/W picture taken at ex-Ramenskoye showing a Phantom and a Mirage III tested by Soviets during cold war!

Do you have something similar???

Those were more than likely mock-ups rather than fully operational aircraft. That image was discussed shortly after it appeared in publication.

TJ