TJIf anyone wants an even bigger laugh then visit the following:
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2000/0700kosovo.asp
And see how NATO claims that it destroyed 120 tanks, 220 armored personnel carriers, and 450 artillery pieces. The article even claims that the Serbs made an elaborate attempt to hide all the evidence of the hundreds destroyed tanks by repairing them before inspectors had a chance to asses teh damage (I wonder how they did that when some of the factories which built the M-84 tanks are located in Croatia and Slovenia).
I guess when some amateur aircraft enthusiast like Venik makes bogus claims, it’s a real hoot. But when NATO spokesmen make equally bogus claims, no one notices.
How can destroying mock ups and decoys be considered making up claims? The decoys altered the BDA figures. In some cases UAVs caught damaged AFVs being removed on low-loaders. In any case the Yugoslavs declared the following:
The Yugoslavs admitted to losing the following after rejoining the accords in 1999 post conflict:
18 (eighteen) MBT
136 (one hundred and thirty six) AFV
50 (fifty) fixed wing combat aircraft.
(This included the 11 MiG-29s lost to all causes. The MiG-21 fleet suffered the worst loss by type)
11 (eleven) combat helicopters
The following are snippets from 2001 interviews highlighting Yugoslav Air
Force losses:
“General Pavkovic believes the Yugoslav military was successful overall
because it suffered relatively few casualties and managed to hold on to many
of its weapons systems. The lone exception, he said, was the Yugoslav air
force, which “suffered considerable losses.”
Yugoslav air force Col. Radovan Rakovic:
“All our airports on the ground suffered great damage,” Rakovic said.
The Yugoslav air force, he said, lost about 30 percent of its combat
equipment and 40 percent of its combat systems.
TJ
TJIf anyone wants a laugh then visit the followng:
http://www.warinfo.org.yu/natodown.html
This was one of Venik’s original webpages. The one with the F-4s shot down and the MiG-29s in Bosnia not Yugoslav but German/US!
TJ
TJHey TJ,do you have that newspaper article in the original size?If it is too big you can send it to my email!
THanks a lot!
You can find Part 2 on the following website. Part 1 link is dead – sorry about that.
http://website.lineone.net/~tommyjo/
TJ
TJThis is part 2 of the picture interview that Lt. Col Peric gave. Part 1 is missing from my files.
TJ
TJok now, here we go again :rolleyes:
regards tuzla here is tread
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34208
please explainI did not say it was but please how could You explain that pictures
bosnian serbs did not have mig 29I mentioned mig 29 movment if You wanted to know where it were hidden I could tell You some locations.
but I realy, realy been there, and I know what I was talking about for that mig 29
TJ If You realy are what you say you are then you know about fake mig 29 at batajnica airport and why do you thing it was so dificult to hide mig 29 when there was many places to hide it by daily bases, here is picture of it and url.
http://dragan.freeservers.com/agresija/m18.htmregards
Mwolf wrote:
“I did not say it was but please how could You explain that pictures
bosnian serbs did not have mig 29″
Mwolf have you never read the interview with Lt Col Peric, the surviving pilot of the engagement on the 26th March 1999?
Both aircraft were armed with R-27s and R-73s and carried no air-to-ground ordnance. Neither were they escorting any strike force. At this point I’ll let the Peric interview stand:
“Lieutenant colonel Slobodan Peric, Mig-29 pilot, tells for the first time
how he was shot down three days after the aggression in a conflict with NATO aviation, while his comrade Major Zoran Radisavljeviæ was killed
We Ascended to 7000 meters from low level fast flight, passed through the
clouds, where a NATO swarm awaited us
Friday, March 26th 1999. The third day of NATOs aggression.
The mighty engines of two -29s thundered in the late afternoon on the
(military) runway of the Batajnica airfield. Two hawks from “The Knights”
squadron took off: Lieutenant Colonel Slobodan Periæ Buca (39) and Major
Zoran Radisavljeviæ (34). They bravely went towards the black NATO phantoms. There were, it is said, ten to one.
The resolute pilot Periæ did not “live through” his second conflict with
the aggressors. His Mig-29 was hit, shortly after takeoff over the river
Drina. The experienced knight, fortunately, survived!
But he will never celebrate March 26th as his second birthday. On this day,
every year, he will light candles on the Le¹æe cemetery. A few minutes
before he was shot down, “The Knights” squadron lost its first pilot. His
comrade, Major Zoran Radosavljeviæ, went to heaven (Periæ and Radosavljeviæ were awarded the Medal for Bravery).
Lieutenant Colonel slobodan Periæ talks about the drama above the river
Drina, exclusively for “Svedok”, after 359 days.
Two of our colleagues who were at alert the whole day needed replacing. I
said: “I’ll go. Who’ll go with me?” At that moment Zoran received a call
from his sister Sne¾ana, with a mobile phone, who told him that Lieutenant
Colonel Iljo Arizanov is alive! We didn’t have any information about him for
two days. We was shot down. Zoran said: “I’ll go with you. I haven’t flown
in a while. It’s better that I fly by day than by night”. He hadn’t flown in
a Mig for several months because of an English course, and almost a year has
gone by since he last flew by night.
We got the alert signal at 16:40, through his mobile telephone. We took off
a few minutes before 17:00. We were ordered to fly north, across Banat. I
decided that we should fly extremely low, around 15-20 meters, so we’ll be
harder to notice. Zoran followed me. When we were over Zrenjanin, the
guidance officer ordered: “Turn south!”.
In the vicinity of Fru¹ka Gora, at about 200 meters, I noticed that my
radar was malfunctioning. My aircraft was unusable in combat.I couldn’t fire
any missiles with a longer range than the IC-missiles. I depended on Zoran.
I told him to watch carefully and to tell me if he sees anything.
I asked the communications officer where”blue” (NATO airplane) is, which he
told us is running west from Valjevo. He gave us a distance of 14
kilometers. There were several fighters around us, which we couldn’t
visually see at that distance. By what was happening, I conclude that
Zoran’s radar was malfunctioning as well.
“Let’s go up!” I gave the order to Zoran.
From low level flight we ascended to 7000 meters at 950 kph, and passed
through the clouds. The guidance officer told us that “blue” is in from of
us, at the same distance. I told him that we’ll cross the “line” (border) if
we continue to chase it. We needed 50-60 kilometers to reach him, but we
were around 30 kilometers from the “line”. We didn’t get an answer!
As we neared the border, Zoran radioed me that the intruder is on our right
side. I thought he had it on radar. I ordered: “Excellent, pass, launch, I’m
behind you!” He said : “No, at spo!” That meant that we were illuminated,
that the NATO fighters have detected us. I commanded: “Break left!”. We lost
them, and then resumed our old course.
The guidance officer radioed us: “It looks like someone from that group
went after you!”
I saw four white trails as they headed towards us. I thought they were
“Tomahawks” and planned to shoot them down with IC missiles. However, the
white trail soon disappeared.
(TJ note: Both F-15 pilots combat-jettisoned their external fuel tanks. The streaming venting fuel from the tanks was probably what Major Peric witnessed. The F-15s were up at approx 20,000ft at this point. )
I knew they had fired missiles on us. I ordered: “Run, missiles!”.
He replied: “I’m running for the clouds!”. Those were the last words I
heard. I made an anti-missile maneuver, turned the plane on its back, turned left, then right. The first missile missed me, but the second one hit my right
engine, in the hind part of the Mig. I attempted to make a break for our
territory, but the stick didn’t react. My Mig started to lose altitude. Air
started streaming into the cracked cockpit. I hung by the belts in the
plane. I was at around 7000 meters. I pulled the eject handle. I fell
through the clouds so long that I froze!
When I was at around 4000 meters I saw where I was. I recognized my
birthplace, Loznica, Ugljevik, the lake… I didn’t know where I was going
to land. I was afraid that the Muslims will capture me.I saw the burning
plane hit the ground and the explosion that followed. Below me- oak woods.
What if I get stuck in a tree? Some 50 meters from the ground, something
turned me for 180 degrees, towards our territory. I hit the ground with my
102 kilos, which is what I weighted then. I go the wind knocked out of me,
but luckily didn’t get hurt. (Periæ landed near the Serb village of Donja
Krèmina, in the Republic of Srpska, while the plane fell into a minefield on
the Muslim side of the hill, behind the village Laza).
I discarded my chute, and started uphill, with my helmet still on, towards
our territory. I was around 10 kilometers from the river Drina. I wanted to
swim across it. But, two groups of armed civilians approached me. Luckily, I
didn’t make a break for the woods, where the Muslims waited. I was chased by
the Serbs and the “Turks”; both thought that I was an American!
I avoided the first group of civilians. I couldn’t do so with the second,
which contained 15-20 peasants. They were very close. They walked with some
20 meter gaps between them straight at me. if I started to run, they
would’ve cut me down. They all had “kalashnikovs”.
I decided to call out to them and yell; “Hello boys!”
They all stopped. Three or four children were with them, that ran towards
me. They started to yell: “Stop, he’ll kill you all!”
“I said: “don’t be afraid, I don’t kill children!”
The bravest one approached me and asked for some identification. I didn’t
bring them. The VJ marking on my flight-suit don’t help. he asks: “Who are
you?”
What am I supposed to say!? I don’t know if they’re Serbs or Muslims!
“I’m one of us!” I say
“Who us?” he asks
“A Serb!” I reply
Somebody from the group says: “See the aggressor, SOB, he knows Serbian!
“The main man” asks: “What have you got in your pockets?”
I take out my gun, and he says: “Yes, our gun, CZ-99!”
The other one finds 200-300 dinars in my pocket and yells: “He is one of
us, the SOB. If he were an American, he’d have more money!” I proposed that
we go to the nearest house, so I can make a phonecall to convince them of my
identity. I was afraid that apaches” will come and pick me up. They agreed.
I didn’t want to call my wife Vera in Belgrade right away. I gave them a
number of a relative across Drina, but they seemed to mix up the digits. A
medical orderly from the next village took the call. I know the man. After
much dragging, I told them who I was.
They started to apologize, to offer me food and drink. I refused
everything. I asked for transportation so I could leave as soon as possible.
I called my wife in Belgrade: “Listen Vera, I was up, now I’m down. I’m
alive and well, near to my birthplace, on the other side of the “line”. I
wanted her to call my squadron and tell them I’m alive.
They gave me a tight worker’s outfit, put me into a car and drove me. After
a kilometer or two, the police came by.
“Where is the pilot?” they asked
“Here he is, this one!” they point at me.
“What kind of a pilot is he?”
“One of ours, Serbian!” my rescuers reply
The policemen say: “Mother of…, it’d be better if we hadn’t found him”,
and leave. They all thought that they caught an American.
Soon they transferred me to another car. Guys from Bjeljina took me over.
They waited for the night to fall, for two hours they led me around the
village and showed me to their uncles, aunts… and then at the Bjeljina
bridge handed me over to “state” RS. They took me to Raèa.
I called my wife again and told her to tell where I am. Soon a general
called me and asked: “Did you do anything smart?”. I replied that I didn’t
fire any missiles, and he retorted: “Sit there and keep quiet!”
Time went by. When the policemen in Raèa saw that my back was hurting they
called our “Securityman” in Sremska Mitrovica, but couldn’t reach him. They
got the duty officer, and he says to them: “Don’t we have a vehicle for
something like this?”
I was brought to Batajnica by the Batajnica police. Nobody asked me
anything. I told what had happened. Soon General Ljubi¹a Velièkoviæ came,
greeted me and said: “You were lucky, but Zoran Radosavljeviæ wasn’t!”
That’s when I found out that my Pavo, as we used to call him, was killed.
My heart hurt! What am I to say to his mother, sister, girlfriend?! It
seemed that Zoran sensed the tragedy. That day, while we drove to the unite
he said: “See Buco, you’ve left something behind you, you have two children.
Now I’m sorry that I didn’t marry, that I have no children. I should have
married Tanja, so at least something should remain to her.”
Captitioned texts:
Grandpa killed by a German
I’m form Raðevina, near Loznica. I grew all over the ex-SFRJ, but grew up
and matured in Dalmatia. I’ve worked at Batajnica since 1983. My ancestors
were hearty. There would be a lot more Periæs if there weren’t two world
wars. I don’t have a single ancestor that, during the first world war, died
of natural causes. All of the 5 brothers died. My grandpa was killed in
1941. Some say he was in the Partisans, others in the Chetniks. But he
didn’t wear a kokarda, or a star! he was killed by a german!
Pay 300 DEM (German marks)
I opened up a private shop, which brings better money than my pilot’s pay.
Lieutenant Colonel, the pilot of a supersonic fighter makes around 300 DEM
in dinars, of course. At the time of the aggression, our pay was around 200
DEM. I have two children, daughter Maja and son Luka. he was born on Saint
LUka, and my grandpa was named so. I’m supposed to get a three-room
apartment, but I got a Two-room one. But I solved my habitation question. I
bought the apartment next to mine and expanded! In these hard times I can
float, because I am, as they say, resourceful. I always had the support of
my Vera. It means a lot to me!”
TJ
TJok now
that does it
As I remeber i did not write any loses and shot downs, only I wrote were that I think that someone in future will tell that there were some other planes which was downed in not near future, so do not put that was not my words
so, that was it. read my post and you should see it for yourself
but someone get injured even by these words so where is smoke there is fire perhaps. I know that evryone are over protected for theres country.
If You want to know where i been during the 1999 i served military at airport, I could tell that they were precise during bombing our empty bildings, and miss runway by a little, but still were operational, in next several day’s our planes going up with bomb loads, returning empty….
I saw even mistakes from nato planes as they mised or be fuled by hiting fake targets, rockets were shot down daily, I saw that with my one eye’s.
I even survive some by chance (becouse we just go from one place to other), what were hit several hours later. We had loses, we had reports of smoking planes etc. Someone will ask what’s airport name where I were, I will say central Serbia . Who knows what airport i meant he knows. We even hide 1 mig 29 during the war all over landscape. That was propaganda story but I did not believe it becouse i did not trust that goverment, but What i saw during fighting aircrafts I believe that might be some planes shot down or heavy damage. SO I think case is closed at first I only wanted to share some picture with this comynity becouse they can not see it with there on eye’s in person, and only I saw was that someone do not aprove it, and were afended by that. That was war time will tell who was wright and who was not (do not post about it, this is not the place for it). So I am interested as civilinan from military people othere for how long did you planed to bomb Yugoslavia (1 week, month, Year) I realy wanted to know.
Those images that you posted are well known ever since the Yugoslav Aeronautical Museum put on display the NATO displays. The images have been available through Venik’s website and the Yu Model Club for many years. Along with the images from the Yugoslav Aeronautical museum the Kalemegdan museum images of NATO wreckage have also been available on-line.
To be totally fair to these guys at the Yugoslav Aviation Museum I have
never seen or heard them fall into the Belgrade government propaganda mode.
One references that I have was the Sky News interview of Drasko Kostic during 2000 (named as a curator). Drasko Kostic informed the reporter (Tim Marshall) that there are parts of 25 cruise missiles here along with 8 pilot-less aircraft, or drones, and the 2 jets that were shot down. So far 4000 people have been to visit in just 3 weeks.” Another individual also
named as a curator, Cedomir Janjic, announced that more destroyed NATO
weapons will be soon added to the collection in a new wing of the museum
dedicated to the airstrikes. Details were released that the museum held over
1500 fragment of NATO’s military hardware. In a UK aviation magazine a
museum member gave details as to how search parties were organised to
collect these fragments. Not one mention was made to any pieces of manned
aircraft being collected or recovered other that the two USAF aircraft shot
down. On the other hand the Belgrade propaganda machine was in full swing
after a government official visit to the Yugoslav Aviation Museum.
In an interview to the Associated Press Yugoslavia’s Minister for Science and
Development, Cedomir Mirkovic, said “It is truly amazing how many aircraft
and drones were downed with the relatively modest and primitive equipment. “
Mirkovic refutes Western claims that Yugoslav air defense downed only the
two planes. “We shall prove we have more,” he said, without elaborating.
Yes, Mr Mirkovic we are all still waiting!
Mwolf, what you witnessed during the conflict did not result in any manned aircraft other that 82-806 and 88-0550 being destroyed or written off. These were the only two airframes lost to enemy action. Several aircraft took nicks and scratches and others combat-jettisoned their external fuel tanks while evading SAMs, but no aircrew ejected as a result. Hard for you to believe, but these are the cold hard facts. The same went for thousands of missions over the No Fly Zones of Northern and Southern Iraq despite countless claims of shoot downs by the Iraqi forces over the years.
TJ
TJok now
that does it
As I remeber i did not write any loses and shot downs, only I wrote were that I think that someone in future will tell that there were some other planes which was downed in not near future, so do not put that was not my words
so, that was it. read my post and you should see it for yourself
but someone get injured even by these words so where is smoke there is fire perhaps. I know that evryone are over protected for theres country.
If You want to know where i been during the 1999 i served military at airport, I could tell that they were precise during bombing our empty bildings, and miss runway by a little, but still were operational, in next several day’s our planes going up with bomb loads, returning empty….
I saw even mistakes from nato planes as they mised or be fuled by hiting fake targets, rockets were shot down daily, I saw that with my one eye’s.
I even survive some by chance (becouse we just go from one place to other), what were hit several hours later. We had loses, we had reports of smoking planes etc. Someone will ask what’s airport name where I were, I will say central Serbia . Who knows what airport i meant he knows. We even hide 1 mig 29 during the war all over landscape. That was propaganda story but I did not believe it becouse i did not trust that goverment, but What i saw during fighting aircrafts I believe that might be some planes shot down or heavy damage. SO I think case is closed at first I only wanted to share some picture with this comynity becouse they can not see it with there on eye’s in person, and only I saw was that someone do not aprove it, and were afended by that. That was war time will tell who was wright and who was not (do not post about it, this is not the place for it). So I am interested as civilinan from military people othere for how long did you planed to bomb Yugoslavia (1 week, month, Year) I realy wanted to know.
Mwolf,
You are not thinking logically here. Earlier you stated
“Lets stay with Facts, You see that mig were kiled near Tuzla, but did You heard something about airstrike from Yugoslavia to that location in Bosnia during 1999 …”
There was no Yugoslav airstrike against Tuzla airbase / Camp Eagle. Just the same as there was no airstrike against Rinas, Albania.
the following 127th lae pilots were awarded Bravery Medals and promoted
to higher ranks:
Major Nebojsa Nikolic
Major Slobodan Peric
Major Predrag Milutinovic
Major Iljo Arizanov
The following 127 lae pilots were killed in combat:
Kapetan I klase Zoran Radosavljevic
Pukovnik Milenko Pavlovic, commander of 204. Fighter Regiment.
If like you stated an air strike took place on Tuzla the why is there no unit or pilot citation in regards to your claimed raid? This is a simple question that requires an answer from yourself.
Mwolf, you mentioned a MiG-29 movement in your last post. Are you aware that 11 MiG-29s were lost to all causes during the conflict? You might not be aware, but at the end of 1999 the Yugoslavs rejoined the Dayton Agreement and Vienna Document and admitted their losses suffered during the conflict. The total number of Yugoslav combat aircraft lost during the conflict was 50 airframes. Since rejoining Yugoslavia has hosted several verification inspections. Of note on the first inspection during 2000 was the 127th operating the 4 remaining Fulcrum As and the sole Fulcrum B. To make up the squadron to full strength the 127th was operating Fishbed alongside the remaining Fulcrums.
TJ
TJI was there to witness the. I went to several crash sites, Predator UAV, F-16, F-117A, and A-10A.
Ok I am sory if it isn’t USAF who operates Apache… Is it US Navy, or US Amry? What a big difference.
I can’t tell a difference from German or British Tornado in the skies, but according to some verified facts we can tell that it was a German one.
The British Harrier I mentioned above managed to land in Bosnia being heavily damaged.
About the F-15 I am not talking of the one from Venik’s site, but of one which fell down on approach to some airport in Albania, being perviously hit by a SAM.Who wants to believe it, believe it, who doesn’t forget it, but facts will remain facts forever.
Mwolf and Khrushchev,
Your postings so far are no better than that coming from the Yugoslav Government officials during the conflict. Let me remind you of their ramblings on the subject of NATO losses. This is exactly how you are coming across in your posts on this forum:
” The world press more often and more openly writes about enormous
NATOlosses in their complete failure called “air strikes campaign”. As the
Day when the aggressor will have to give an accounting and inform the
Families of their killed soldiers and pilots is inevitably approaching, the
Strategy experts of this alliance are trying to resort to some cheap tricks.
However, the facts which reveals not only the world media, but the Russian
intelligence too, are more than painful and tormenting. The Greek
daily “Atinaiki”, whose writing NATO never impugned, wrote ten days ago
about at least 88 killed alliance soldiers and 32 downed aircraft. Other
European newspapers also wrote about these and similar losses of the aggressor.
The clandestine role of the 424th American hospital in Thesalonika is
secret no more, and neither is the fact that metallic coffins are coming every
day into the British base in Cyprus. These and similar “unpleasant”
information, the alliance has been trying to conceal these days in a
very awkward way. In the morning news, Radio Toronto recently reported the
crash of a NATO aircraft ‘in Israel’ (!?), when the pilot and ’22
parachuters’ were killed. Allegedly, those were amateur parachuters who had come from America to train for some sort of a championship. The news would have been swallowed if only 72 hours earlier the news had not leaked on the
crash of a helicopter ‘in Japan’ (three killed), then another crash of F-15 over
‘Puerto Rico’ (one killed), then new helicopter accidents ‘in Kentucky’ (eleven killed) and Arizona (12 killed). The only connection to Kosovo was made by an American TV reporter when she was talking about the ‘Kentucky’ accident, but it was only said that they had been ‘training’ for their September schedule in this Serbian province.
However, even the laymen know that these fabricated reports are only the attempts for creating such a situation, suitable for sending messages to the hundreds of families about “tragic losses during military drills”. Even the tragic-comic comments have been heard that CNN and other spokesmen of the alliance could launch the news that “three newly-trained pilots” have died. NATO knows very well that four F-4 aircraft of the German Airforce did not come back from this monstrous mission over Yugoslavia. According to the information of the Russian Ministry of Defence, one two-men crew died when the aircraft exploded in the air, while other three crews were found and captured by the Yugoslav Army. In the air combat on March 26, seven kilometers to the South of Pancevo, a Yugoslav MIG-29 downed an American F-16C, whereas another four bombers of the same type were downed by the Yugoslav anti-aircraft defence. Two Canadian F/A-18C were shot down and
destroyed together with their pilots 11 kilometers to the South of Ruma, and
because of that the American northern neighbour sent additional aircraft to
Italy on March 30. Yugoslav MIG-21 managed to blow up an American two-seater F-15E on March 27, which the BBC reported the same day.
At least one “Tornado IDS” was downed between March 24 and 26. This two-seater was completely blown up in the sky on the South of Pancevo. Another German “Tornado” was downed on March 29, but the pilot managed to eject himself. According to Yugoslav and Russian sources, one British “Harrier” was down on March 30, and Another one on April 17. A large group of multi-purpose fighter aircraft found themselves in the cross fire of the light anti-aircraft artillery and had to leave the Yugoslav sky with lots of damage. On April 15, agencies reported about the sad end of so-called “Warthog”, American specialized fighter aircraft for anti-tank fighting A-10A. The greatest success of the Yugoslav Army is definitely, demystification of the carefully kept secret of the “Stealth” technology. The invisible fighter F-117A was shot down into the plough-lands of the village of Budjanovci, hit by the earth-to-air missile. Soon after that, Radio Zagreb reported the forced landing of another Stealth aircraft at the Zagreb airport. According to Reuters, and some other media houses, there is a real possibility that even a third “invisible” aircraft faced a similar sad destiny. On April 6, an
aircraft which bombarded the oil refinery in Novi Sad that night, was shot down above Fruska Gora mountain early in the morning. NATO did not have better luck in its helicopter missions, in which a large number of commandos lost their lives. One HH60-G helicopter with two pilots and 12 commandos came down between Bijeljina and Tuzla on March 28, and only a day later, the
same destiny hit another two helicopters of similar type. According to
Russian sources, a NATO aircraft and two CH-53/53E helicopters were shot down at about 200 kilometers to the South-West from Belgrade, on April 2, with 58 CREW members, who are all believed to have died in the accident.
The Yugoslav air defence shot down a considerable number of aircraft, not
identified yet, so that the list of the dead aggressor’s soldiers is
not final yet. In any case, it is becoming bigger and bigger every day in
this aggression on Yugoslavia. Therefore, it no wonder there is a panicky
fear of NATO from facing the families of the dead soldiers and ridiculous
attempts to hide the truth. Belgrade, 01/06/1999 (MPA)
The Deputy Secretary of Information of the Serb government, Radmila Visic, claimed that Yugoslavia has shot down more than 190 NATO aircrafts since March 24, when the Alliance launched air raids against the country, in her interview at the Macedonian Press Agency. Mrs Visic accused NATO of concealing the actual number of its losses during the two-month war in Yugoslavia and reassured that when the hostilities are over, the Alliance will be forced to informfirst of all the mothers of the dead pilots, who still don’t know the truth. “Of course Americans and the rest of the NATO allies do not admit that they lost 190 aircrafts and they will not admit it in any of their
briefings. However, even in the Internet, in NATO’s web-site there are data that confirm this number and verify the claims of the Yugoslav army”, said
Mrs. Visic. “I am certain that when this is all over, then the International public opinion and especially the American one will face the Vietnam
syndrome and then the mothers of the pilots of the shot down planes
will be informed that their sons where killed in the raids against Yugoslavia”, she stressed. When asked about why the Yugoslav authorities do not present
photos or videos that confirm their allegations of having downed 190
planes, the Serb minister noted that even NATO itself has admitted that
Yugoslavia has a remarkable strategy. “It is part of our tactics, not to show
them. I, like a good soldier, will not give more information on this. However,
the fact that NATO has announced that it will bring another 1.200 planes
against a country with small air force, doesn’t that mean something to you?”.
TJ
TJwhat about I have seen thing ?
I know that our americans friends do not wish to tell evrything so …
but the truth is not on there’s side not even on our’s nor the betwen
so do not waste any more word’s to it, it is not woth it, but like someone said it PROVE IT!!!!!, so if You do not have any proof (material, written, pics…) not propaganda, but for information Yugoslavia isn’t big so if someoone is damage he or she could pass the border and what then so we all have our word against theres, as I recall America did not even whan’t to approve f177 lost till pictures go all over the world … so if I could close this tread I would but i can not 😀
The operation to rescue the pilot was underway despite the pictures being broadcast. Until the pilot was rescued and safely out of Serbia there was no confirmation.
TJ
TJI was there to witness the. I went to several crash sites, Predator UAV, F-16, F-117A, and A-10A.
Ok I am sory if it isn’t USAF who operates Apache… Is it US Navy, or US Amry? What a big difference.
I can’t tell a difference from German or British Tornado in the skies, but according to some verified facts we can tell that it was a German one.
The British Harrier I mentioned above managed to land in Bosnia being heavily damaged.
About the F-15 I am not talking of the one from Venik’s site, but of one which fell down on approach to some airport in Albania, being perviously hit by a SAM.Who wants to believe it, believe it, who doesn’t forget it, but facts will remain facts forever.
“I was there to witness the. I went to several crash sites, Predator UAV, F-16, F-117A, and A-10A.”
So you went to A-10A crash site. What did you find there? The starboard engine nacelle is now in the Belgrade Military Museum. Inside the starboard engine nacelle is a construction plate. It was videoed by the Serb military and news agencies. If you were there you would have noted the construction number. The A-10 in question, 81-0967, was hit by a SAM and shedded its engine nacelle. The aircraft in question recovered to Petrovec, Macedonia and was patched up before recovering back to its operating base in Italy. The aircraft in question still serves today.
“Ok I am sory if it isn’t USAF who operates Apache… Is it US Navy, or US Amry? What a big difference.
I can’t tell a difference from German or British Tornado in the skies, but according to some verified facts we can tell that it was a German one.”
And where did this Luftwaffe Tornado come down?
“The British Harrier I mentioned above managed to land in Bosnia being heavily damaged.”
No Harrier was written off from the inventory due to any combat damage.
“About the F-15 I am not talking of the one from Venik’s site, but of one which fell down on approach to some airport in Albania, being perviously hit by a SAM.”
Absolute non-sense. No F-15 was written off from the inventory.
What you have described is aircraft suffering minor combat damage. Several NATO aircraft suffered minor combat damage during the course of the conflict. None of them were written off from the inventories nor suffered such damage for the aircrew to eject.
Some of the following links might be dead.
A number of NATO manned aircraft took combat damage during the conflict.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May1999/t05281999_t0528asd.html
‘Q: You mentioned several aircraft had been hit during this operation. Do
you have a rough number of times this has occurred?
Major General Wald: I think it’s probably been about five to ten or
something like that. I’m not sure. Don’t quote me on that, because there may
have been some that took a little nick… (Laughter) Okay, quote me on this.
About five to ten. How’s that? Less than ten, more than five.
Q: And two have been downed. Two were down or…
Major General Wald: Two have crashed. The F-16 and the F-117. The F-117 we already told you we’re not going to talk about why. The F-16 was an engine problem. We’re not sure if it was because of AAA or a SAM ingesting into the engine, or it was just an engine failure.
Q: (inaudible)
Major General Wald: There was an A-10 that landed that had been shot with a SAM that hit one of his engines, a hand-held SAM.’
The following are the pieces that were blown off an A-10 that took combat
damage over Kosovo on the 2nd May 1999:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/a10downphotos01.htm
The Serbs filmed the pieces and claimed that the aircraft had been shot
down: They could show nothing else but these pieces. No ejection seat, no cockpit nose section, no remains of the main fuselage, no captured pilot.
This is the photograph of the aircraft after it was repaired in Macedonia:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img002/a10a-81-0967repaired02.jpg
Another A-10 took combat damage over Kosovo on the 11th May 1999. The SAM ripped off an antenna from the underside of the fuselage:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img003/a-10-81-0984-may-11-1999-01.jpg
Further evidence of combat damage:
Lt. Col. Stephan J. Laushine who led both rescue missions into Serbia to
rescue the pilots of the two aircraft shot down during Operation Allied
Force (F-117A, serial 82-806 and F-16CG, serial 88-0550) revealed during a
TV interview that all three choppers (MH-53 and MH-60s) were hit by small
arms fire during the mission. Two took hits to the rotors and another took a
hit in the aft cabin section. The MH-60G ‘Pave Hawk’ that picked up the F-16
pilot sustained significant damage as revealed by the following:
http://www.hurlburt.af.mil/commando/archives/000211/000211-001.html
16th Special Operations Wing Public Affairs
‘The MH-60G dispatched to pick up the downed pilot sustained significant
damage from small arms fire’
Again, none of those aircraft/helos were written off from the inventory. No aircrew died in combat and no aircrew ejected due to combat damage received.
TJ
TJPeople in here just seem to be to ignorant to understand that US Army isn’t perfect and that not only the F-117A was downed during war in 1999. I was there to witness it.
At least four F-16 were downed, one A-10, one F-117A was downed and one crash landed in Croatia and was beyond economic repair, a HH-60G Blackhawk, a F-15, a British Harrier, and German Tornado IDS. One of the F-117’s was hit by R-73 launched from a Yugoslav MiG-29.
The actions in Tuzla and Rinas did happen, and you can try to cover this up as much as you want but it were USAF aircraft stationed in Tuzla, and USAF Apache helicopters in Rinas.
I see you are getting your info from Venik’s website.
The F-117 landing damaged was a radio April Fools joke. This was picked up and broadcast as real by the Yugoslav Ministry of Information. Your F-15 you picked up from Venik’s webpage. The picture of the F-15 venting fuel over Bosnia and the remains of the 600 US gallon F-15 external fuel tank combat jettisoned on the 26 March 1999. Both Hwang and McMurray combat-jettisoned their externals fuel tanks before tangling with the two Yugoslav MiG-29s.
No Yugoslav pilot fired any air-to-air missiles nor claimed any NATO aircraft downed in air-to-air combat. The Yugoslav Ministry of Information ghost writers manipulated the post combat reports and interviews. Pilots of the 127 lae were most upset that this was done in their name.
The Rinas and Tuzla air raids were fabrications. No Yugoslav units acknowledge or were citated for any of these raids. Just for your records the USAF doesn’t operate the AH-64. The raids were part of the disinformation campaign, good for internal consumption (I see you bought it hook line and sinker) but it doesn’t quite stand up to any detailed investigation. Whoever made up the story and created the webpage for these fantasy air raids failed to take in the fact that Tuzla AFB has a Russian Colonel based there with his SFOR liaison staff. The aircraft just popped over the border and destroyed numerous ‘NATO aircraft’ without being pursued by CAP. Whoever conjured up the story on the Tuzla raid also claimed that one Orao was shot down by a NATO SAM.and the pilot killed. So, NATO is hiding its shootdown claims now?! And what was the killed Yugoslav pilot’s family told?
Task Force ALBA was the name given to the operation by the Swiss Defence Department. The force consisted of 50 personnel made up of military pilots, ground personnel and soldiers. Three AS 532 Cougars, serials T-315, T-322 and T-312 , were deployed to Rinas and by the 9th of April they were fully operational. The Swiss also used a hired Spanish Air Force CASA CN 235 for re-supply flights between Switzerland and Albania. The Swiss Defence Minister, Federal Councillor Adolf Ogi, Chief of the General Staff, Ulrich Scherrer and Lieutenant General Fernaud Carrel visited Rinas during the summer and expressed their satisfaction with the work carried out by the Swiss Task Force ALBA.
Isn’t it strange that not one member of this humanitarian mission, which was stationed at Rinas before Task Force Hawk arrived, reported to these chiefs that Rinas or the local area had come under air attack from the Serbs? Just who do you think was co-coordinating the Swiss helicopters? Alonside the Swiss was also a contingent of Austrian Air Force Bell 212/4s. Both nations are non-aligned.What are they all part of the cover-up?
Not to mention all the humanitarian agencies based at Rinas plus news agencies and nobody witnessed an air-raid being carried out?
TJ
TJNo Coment
Awww, You let me down! Let me know when the “Pentagon” release the details of all those substantial manned aircraft losses.
TJ
TJWow,even 3 years after the conflict,the Mig remains were still there?I was thinking they might be taken away or people might have taken some “souvenires”.:)
As i recall each Mig managed to dodge several AMRAAMS but eventually were shot down.
Parts of, I think Peric’s aircraft, are in the ready room/crew bar of the 493rd at RAF Lakenheath. They use it in some crew room ritual involving a baseball bat. Beat the MiG scenario. literally!
TJ
TJi was there you were not so …. end of that, i saw what you can only dream and woke up all wet, so … pictures talk more than 1000 word, can I just remind you that “someone claim over 200 tanks killed at Kosovo but only 15 were found and half of that were fake…
so do not tell me about propaganda please
I told You to wait and they will tell but it will not be so soon …
Lets stay with Facts, You see that mig were kiled near Tuzla, but did You heard something about airstrike from Yugoslavia to that location in Bosnia during 1999 …
and one more thing what production lines are You talking about, first several day they killed almost everything that could be used for production of some wepons, we could not produce aircraft Years ahead, and Tanks only in Former Yugoslavia could be made, becouse factories were all scaterd all over the ex Country we lived in, bu ammuniton and light arms we had and have … but this is the fact. /sorry for my bad english but i Hope You all understand what i had to say 😀 )
“What did they do – secretly re-open the production lines to replace the aircraft lost? “
That remark was in regards to all those NATO manned aircraft that you and many others claim were shot down. Explain to me how all those losses of manned aircraft are being covered up? I’ve heard them all before, but please enlighten us all on this forum? I’m all ears!
“i was there you were not so …. end of that”
Really. I served during Allied Force. Explain to me why a CAOC (Combined Air Operations Centre) did not know about all those manned aircraft being shot down, pilots ejecting and aircrew dying?
“I told You to wait and they will tell but it will not be so soon …”
Oh right, not that old story. Since 1999 and no-one is talking about these undisclosed manned aircraft losses? Would you care to enlighten me about the nationalities of those undisclosed aircraft? President Clinton is already on the record about no combat losses of personnel so how come no one has popped up to say “What about my son, Mr President?”
Did you serve in the military during 1999? If not what age were you back in 1999? On your visit to the Yugoslav Aeronautical Museum did you speak to the staff? They are on record about their role in collecting NATO exhibits for the museum. The recovery team interviews have appeared in UK aviation magazines over the years. They are on record as having collected approximately 1,500 pieces of debris/parts/wreckage during the period. Not even they claim to have anything that confirms your story of losses.
You talked about propaganda. Have you read up on what Bojan Bugarcic said in 1999? Bugarcic, was an advisor to Milosevic. Bugarcic revealed in interview:
“He [Bugarcic] said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their forces were mounting a spirited defence. “Using the state broadcaster, unofficial ‘Russian intelligence’ web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled. My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting ‘pure lies,’ his explorations on the
Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft. “He was devastated when he learned the truth.”
“Lets stay with Facts, You see that mig were kiled near Tuzla, but did You heard something about airstrike from Yugoslavia to that location in Bosnia during 1999”
Why not add the claimed air raid on Rinas as well?
Whoever conjured up these stories failed to take into account the fact that
a Russian SFOR liaison team was based at Tuzla and Swiss, Austrian military
humanitarian helicopter detachments were based at Rinas during these claimed attacks.
Wake up and smell the coffee! None of those air-raids took place. The people who made up these stories also claimed that some of those attacking aircraft were shot down and pilots killed. What about the surviving pilots and aircraft that returned after the raid. Why has the unit not been rewarded like the 250th Rocket Brigade? Why no citations for the aircrew?
Many questions, but I would dearly love to hear your explanations?
TJ
TJHow old was Hwang’s Oregon Air National Guard F-15?
It’s probably not crap even though they might be F-15Cs from 1979 and onward, but the Guard does get seconds from the USAF.
The F-15Cs in that engagement were 493EFS/48FW.
Hwang was flying 86-0156 and his wingman, McMurray, was flying 84-0014. 86-0014 already had a kill from 1991 (Iraq). Both Yugoslav MiG kills on the 26 March 1999 were given to 86-0156.
TJ
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