toanHAL launched LCA programme in 1983.
The first TD plane of LCA came out of the factory in 1995.
The first Prototype of LCA made its maiden flight in 2003.
IAF declared the IOC for LCA Tejas on Jan. 10, 2011.
What is your definition of 17 years from start of project to IOC ??
Has HAL begun to build the TD plane or the prototype for AMCA right now ??
toanThere is simply no guarantee that PAK-FA can be ready to enter FOC after 2020 ~ Just look the mess of F-35 project, what can make IAF so sure that the similar things (delay, delay, delay, and over-budget, over-budget, over-budget….) won’t happen to PAK-FA once again??
Not to mention AMCA ~ IAF hopes that it will be able to enter service at the time of 2025. However, if it takes LCA project almost 30 years to reach FOC, how IAF can be sure that the much more advanced and complicated AMCA will be ready with just half of time that Tejas needed ??
IAF needs to retire 150-plus MIG-21bis before 2017, and around 80 MIG-27 before 2020. Moreover, it wants to increase the number of operational fighter squadrons from 34 today to 42 at the time of around 2020. In total, it needs no less than 350 brand new fighters before 2020, and both PAK-FA and AMCA can’t help this requirement.
Tejas MK2 shall be smaller and lighter than Gripen NG, I guess that IAF doesn’t think it can do the all jobs that IAF wants MMRCA to do.
I think the only possible, reasonable, and practical replacement for 126 to 189 MMRCA for IAF right now should be producing more Su-30MKI. However, since IAF doesn’t want its own fighters to be “Russian takes all”, then……
toanAgreed, but can you point me to some links about these or other ROCAF/ROC programs? I have always been pretty interested in ROC systems, which appear fairly credible and often more sophisticated than PRC counterparts (apart from the surprising lack of ROC interest in tanks or land systems).
I don’t now if you can read the traditional Chinese words, because the links you want are often written / discussed in traditional Chinese words, not English….
Anyway, let me provide some links about the stories of original F-CK-1 and its upgrading projects:
http://www.tnu.edu.tw/mt/EDUS/military%20olosy/IDF.pdf
http://www.wretch.cc/blog/luke822/20527144
http://www.wretch.cc/blog/luke822/20528186
http://www.wretch.cc/blog/luke822/20529392
http://www.wretch.cc/blog/luke822/20530557
http://www.wretch.cc/blog/luke822/20531691
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-CK-1%E6%88%B0%E9%AC%A5%E6%A9%9F
http://forum.acewings.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5181&whichpage=1
toanToan, how goes ROC’s domestic weapons program including Golden Eagle enhancements, A2A missiles, SAMs and PGMs? Are there domestic radar programs also?
Cant they compensate..
F-CK-1 upgrading is something like Indian MIG-29UPG / Mirage UPG / Jaguar Darin, which can reduce the numbers of fighter that are needed to replaced right now, but you still need to introduce the new fighters to replace the outdate old fighters that have no more upgrading value (F-5E/F for ROCAF, just like MIG-21 and MIG-27 for IAF….)
toanWell, if even the mighty USA has to succumb to the political pressure of Mainland China, why blames the disloyalty of Pakistan ??
toanYour government right now is no better than Pakistan ~ It refuses to sell F-16C/Ds to Taiwan for the reason that Viper’s secrets may be leaked to China, but on the other hand, it has sold the latest editions of F-16C/D, AIM-120C7, HARM, JHMCS, and Sniper pod to Pakistan……
If Pakistan can let Mainland China to see and analyze the secrets of USA’s stealth Helo wreckage right now, why can’t it let Mainland China to see and analyze the secrets of F-16C/D Block 52+, APG-68V9, AIM-120C7, HARM, JHMCS, and Sniper pod one day ??
Your government offers generosity to the most loyal partner of Mainland China, and treats the one of most loyal friend to USA in the Asia like a dump of shxt. Time will tell USA if it is wise enough.
toanThe bad things always come together, and nothing goes right when the lock is bad…….
Raptor’s accident and grounding.
–> Boeing lost MMRCA competition.
–> Boeing lost commercial airplane sale to Airbus during the Paris Airshow.
–> New problem and delay for F-35 project.
–> US debt crisis and S&P downgrade.
–> USN will lose one operational aircraft carrier group (From ten to nine).
–> USAF loses prototype hypersonic bomber.
–> The Pentagon is facing 350 billion USDs defense cut in the next ten years……
toanWell, it seems that Boeing, MIG, and SAAB all hope that EF and Dassault will be stupid enough to offer the unacceptable prices for their own products to Indian AF……:D
toanFighters of Indian Airforce during 2020~2025, personal estimation:
New fighters:
* FGFA (PAK-FA): 10 ~ 50.
* Su-30MKI: no more than 270.
* MMRCA: 126 ~ 189
* LCA: 140
* In total: 546 ~ 650
Upgraded fighters:
* Mirage-2000 H/TH: 51
* MIG-29 UPG: 63
* Jaguar DARIN-III: 68
* MIG-27 UPG: around 120 today, but I wonder how many can still be remained in the service at time of 2020~2025.
* In total: 180 ~ 300
toanBut its rather funny how a few weeks ago, Indian officials said during a article posted on another thread: ‘Why? By time these upgrades are finished the airframes will be nearing the end of their service life’…(Something along those lines anyway) And it must be said, they do have a point. Then all of a sudden they seem to be all for it…
The article is just the opinion of some people of Indian officials, not most of them.
Point? IAF wants near 900 manned fighters for its own squadrons at the time of around 2020, and it has only less than 700 fighters right now, while more than 150 MIG-21 Bisons need to be retired before 2017….The gap in number (more than 350) is so huge that even LCA, MMRCA, Su-30MKI, and FGFA projects all progress well from now on, IAF still need to upgrade Mirage, MIG-29, and Jauger for another 15 to 20 years service life in order to reach this extremely ambitious goal…..
toan1. The higher the altitude is, the less thrust the engine can offer.
2. The hotter the temperature is, the less thrust the engine can offer.
3. The faster the speed is, the more thrust the engine can offer.
4. The design of air-intake can also affect the thrust performance in certain range of speed ~ MIG-29 were declared to be able to reach the T/W ratio of 1.5:1-class in a limited range of speed and altitude long time ago.
Actually, I am not surprised that EF-2000 and MIG-35, the two fighters which have the most complicated design of air-intake for supersonic flight performance among the five MMRCA competitors, have the best T/W ratio performance in high speed.
However, as many people said in this forum before, the static T/W ratio is far away from everything for the fighter’s flight / combat performance ~ Without CFTs, F-15C and F-15E shall have the better static T/W ratio performance than any MMRCA competitor and even the Raptor, but this doesn’t make F-15C/E to be the best A2A fighter nowadays….
toanSo, the successor of Typhoon / Rafale / Gripen shall be named Eurofighter 2040 or 2050 ~ Is it really wise enough for RAF to begin to retire Typhoon at the time of post-2018??
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=7226552&c=EUR&s=AIR
Asked what the significance was in selecting Dassault as supplier of an interim MALE UAV, Edelstenne said the choice showed a determination to maintain a French national capability in building combat aircraft, as the next manned fighter jet would not enter service for another 30 to 40 years.
The negotiations would determine what sensors and communications payloads would go on the Israeli Aerospace Industries’ UAV air vehicle, which is intended to provide an interim solution until the planned Anglo-French new generation MALE UAV enters service, expected in 2020.
IAI has agreed to disclose technical information on the Heron TP, which will be adapted to French requirements, including the ability to carry weapons, Edelstenne said.
The interim MALE UAV could have a service life of around 10 years and could overlap with the new Anglo-French air system, a company executive said.
toanEurofighter Typhoon:
1. Lightning-class acceleration and climbing performance.
2. Tornado-class striking range and weapon payloads.
3. Tomcat-class A2A dectecting / tracking range and multiple targets’ engagement capability.
4. Better than Eagle-class supersonic flying capability and supercruise.
5. Better than Viper-class subsonic maneuverability and agility.
6. Near Raptor-class supersonic maneuverability and agility.
7. And all of the requirements / performance mentioned above are integrated into a fighter with Hornet-class size, whose empty weight is around 60% of the empty weight of Su-30 series…..
toanA fleet of 500 heavy Su-30mki would mean terrible operational costs – v.expensive.
A: And will the price, operating cost, and maintenance cost of Typhoon or Rafale be cheaper than Su-30MKI ? Will the whole life-time cost of the fleet of 272 Su-30MKI + 126 ~ 189 Typhoon or Rafale really be cheaper than the whole life-time cost of the fleet of pan-Su-30MKI with the same number ??
Rafale and Eurofighter are not less expensive than Su-30MKI, and the training, equipments, spares, and maintenance are completely different between Su-30MKI and Typhoon / Rafale. You have to pay the price to build up two completely different supporting and training systems for the two fighters, and I’m highly suspected that money can be saved in this way comparing with one supporting and training system for just one fighter.
Consider a batch of 4 Super 30MKI with Bars II + conformal L Band AESA acting as AEW for 2 X A2A equipped sniping Rafales/EF (Meteor/R77SD/MicaIIR?) and 2 MKI + 2 Rafale with strike packages (brahmos + scalp).
A: Why you need two different kinds of fighters for this mission ? Why Super 30MKI can’t take all of the roles in this scenario ?
toan@toan
Not according the IAF which will base its decision on the lowest bidder with the commercial bids to be opened soon.
Then IAF must believe that both Rafale and Eurofighter are good enough in performance, capability, and future potential, so that the price is the decisive factor for the final winner.
In other word, no matter how good the A2A capability of Eurofighter is, it is not good enough for IAF to accept a higher price and cost for it.
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“Generation ahead” has no globally accepted definition, and it is not necessarily that a fighter of late generation must be vastly superior to the earlier generation fighter in any aspect. For example:
1. Harrier is a fighter of 1960s, but it has TVC, and in gun-fight scenario, it has successfully slaughtered the fighters that are even two generations ahead of it during the exercise.
2. F-4 is a generation ahead of MIG-21 by some fighter’s generation classifications. However, what the exchange ratio was between them during the Vietnam war ?
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However, I would like to ask a question: If Su-30MKI is a so perfect and satisifying solution in performance, capability, and future potential for IAF before the era of 5th Gen fighter comes, then why IAF starts MMRCA competition ?? Why not just buy more Su-30MKI with future upgrading ?? Is there any unique (and important enough) function, capability, or requirement for IAF that can only be achieved by Typhoon / Rafale, but not the upgrading Su-30MKI ??
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