toanRevised according to Mr. Eagle and Scorpion82’s honorable opinions…
1. The maximal external fuel load of Rafale and Eurofighter today:
* Rafale: 2,000 L tank*3 + 1,250 L tank*2 = 8,500 L
* EF2000: 1,000 L tank*3 = 3,000 L
* Rafale has around 55.4% more internal + external fuel than EF2000.
2. The maximal possibile future external fuel load of Rafale and Eurofighter:
* Rafale: 2,000 L tank*3 + 1,250 L tank*2 + 1,250 L CFT*2 = 11,000 L
* EF2000: 2,000 L tank*2 + 1,000 L tank*1 + 1,500 L CFT*2 = 8,000 L
* Rafale has around 18.4% more internal + external fuel than EF2000.
3. The external fuel load of Rafale and Eurofighter with heavy A2G striking configurations (with two Storm Shadow / Sclap-EG or two 2,000 Ib class A2G weapons) today:
* Rafale: 2,000 L tank*3 + two Scalp-EG –> 6,000 L external fuel.
* EF2000: 1,000 L tank*1 + two heavy A2G weapons –> 1,000 L external fuel.
* Rafale has around 63.8% more internal + external fuel than EF2000.
4. The maximal possible external fuel load of Rafale and Eurofighter with heavy A2G striking configurations (with two Storm Shadow / Sclap-EG or two 2,000 Ib class A2G weapons) in the future:
* Rafale: 2,000 L tank*3 + 1,250 L CFT*2 + two Scalp-EG –> 8,500 L external fuel.
* EF2000: 1,000 L tank*1 + 1,500 L CFT*2 + two Storm Shadow –> 4,000 L.
* Rafale has around 40.2% more internal + external fuel than EF2000.
toan1. IAF shall decide the final winner of MMRCA in December, 2011.
2. The manufacturer who offers the lower whole life-cycle cost of 40 years for its product will win the final competition.
3. The initital batch of 18 MMRCAs shall begin to be delivered to IAF from the original manufacturer in December, 2014.
4. The following 108 MMRCAs shall be produced by HAL in India ~ The first fighter built in HAL should roll out in December, 2016. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end.
toanAs I had mentioned in my previous post, “The maximal possible external fuel load of Eurofighter in the future”:D ~ and 2,000 L external fuel tank and two more heavy stores (enough for carrying Storm shadow) are both the “possible choices” in the future according to the Typhoon GmbH’s previous publication.
However, I’m not sure if Eurofighter today can carry 1,000L tanks*3 + 2,000 Ib LGBs*2 ~ Some imaginary pictures declare it can, but I’ve never seen the real provement…..
toanWell, even the humble T-38 has the records of defeating the mighty F-22A during the low speed gun fights, what is so surprising for F-16 to have the records of defeating Typhoon during the low speed gun fights ??
However, if the PAF pilots used F-16A + AIM-9L/M to defeat the RAF’s Typhoon with HMD and ASRAAM in 3 v.s 3 engagement, then it would be surprising enough:D
toanSo , why India is apparently thinking that the Typhoon is a potential buy ? :confused:
If we leave the technical evaluation aside , I would happily bet my hat that the Typhoon will win the contract .
Why ?
India is moving ahead with the M2000s upgrade and since they don ‘t want to put anymore all their eggs in the same basket , they might decide to go with the Eurofighter .Which in my eyes is a nonsense . 😎
Cheers .
1. India is a member British Commonwealth of Nations.
2. If India buys Rafale, it will only make France happy and appreciating; and if India buys Eurofighter, it will make British, German, Italy, and Spanish happy and appreciating……:D
3. India has already signed some new and big weapon deals with France (Scorepene SSK, Mirage upgrading etc), and for those deals, France doesn’t offer the satisifying price to India.
toanIf IAF can believe the development and deployment status of AESA radars for Rafale (not formaly entered the service yet) and Eurofighter (at the status of prototype) is as good as APG-79 for F/A-18E (which has formally entered service for five years), I see no reason why it can’t believe that the technological development of EF-2000 will be able to catch up the Rafale in the foreseeable future.
The only question is: How much money will Eurofighter Gmbh ask India to pay for this (A real ominrole Eurofighter with AESA radar and complete A2G capability) ??
The final winner shall be the one who can offer the better price and discount to India ~ Not just for the fighter’s procurement cost, but for the fighter’s whole life-cycle cost.
toanMirage 2000 and F-16A, the two fighter with very similar empty weight and internal fuel cpacity.
At sea level, the static A/B thrust of F100-PW-220 is about 10% superior than M53-P2.
However, at the height of above 20,000ft, the T/W ratio of Mirage 2000 is superior than F-16, and the faster the fighters are, the bigger thrust difference between them.
The EJ-200 has also been declared to have the better medium to high altitude supersonic thust performance compared with the conventional turbofans for traditional fighters, just like M53-P2.
toanThe reasons why Japanese MOD decided to give up the following production of F-2 project during 2005~2008:
1. F-2は開発の遅れなどで、1機当たりの価格が当初予定していた約80億円から、主力戦闘機F-15と同等の約120億円に増加した。
The unit cost of F-2 became as expensive as a F-15J/DJ (whose cost is three times the price of American F-15C/D) in 2004. And with that cost, JASDF only got a pure CAS fighter (weapon choices: SRAAM, ASM-1 / ASM-2, and 500 Ib iron bombs) with no BVR combat capability at all at that time.
2. F-15が近代化改修で性能向上を図っているのに対し、F-2は機体が小さく性能向上の余地が少ない。
Because the F-2 is much smaller than a F-15J/DJ, the Japanese MOD thinks its upgrading room and potential are also much less than a F-15J/DJ.
3. F-2は機体が小さく、ミサイルなどの装備数にも限界がある。
The smaller the fighter is, the fewer euipments / weapons it can carry.
toanI still don’t understand why Japan did not considered this (F-2 or Super F-2) options.
Because the F-2 today (A CAS fighter with no BVR combat equipment and capability) has already cost Japan 120 million USDs per unit.
With further modification (enlarged airframe, bigger radar, bigger main wing, more internal fuel, more powerful engine like F119 or F135, incorporating new weapons….), it is true that the modified F-2 may offer what Super hornet and Typhoon can offer. However, just how much more money will Japanese have to pay for it, a Japanese F-16 that is already three to four times more expensive than the late F-16C/D Block50/52 today, in order to get the capability that Super hornet and Typhoon can offer??
toanI don’t know if it’s true or not. But factor in a good number of Scalps and Mica, and the upgrade of a Mirage costs less that a Mig 29K, unless you think that R73/R77 will come cheaper than Mica IR/EM & Scalp.
I don’t know how people can compare deals when they don’t know what’s included in them.
Last but not least. A Mirage 2000 much more expensive than a Mig 29? Oh boy talk about a surprise :rolleyes:
Nic
1. As I’ve mentioned before, even IAF decided to buy 400 MICA + 100 SCALP-EG for its Mirage 2000 upgrading plan and no Russian missile under the MIG-29UPG project, the unit upgrading cost of Mirage 2000 is still more than the two times of the upgrading cost of MIG-29UPG.
2. And don’t forget: Both MIG-29 UPG and Jagaur DARIN-III upgrading plans have integrate the brand new engines, whose unit cost shall be no less than the unit cost of SCALP-EG (especially when each upgrading fighter needs two engines…..), while it seems that the Mirage upgrading plan has no new engine for it.
3. It is not news that the brand new Mirage 2000 is much more expensive than the brand new MIG-29. But if the unit upgrading cost of old Mirage 2000 (without incorporating new engine) is almost as high as a brand new MIG-29K, or two to three times of the unit upgrading cost of old MIG-29 (with the price of incorporating new engines), then it should be still astonishing enough for any potential foreign customers of French fighter.
4. By the way, it seems that the permission for IAF’s Mirage 2000 upgrading plan has been delayed once again, and anyone here wants to guess the reason why ?? 😀
http://expressbuzz.com/nation/price-rows-delaying-iaf-upgrade-plans/262417.html
toanMaybe Dassault overpriced the bid to try and help the sale of Rafales to the UAE (so that they could sell their Mirages to India)?Nic
1. The UAE airforce has decided to keep its Mirage 2000-9 for more years now.
2. And if that is true, I would say that Dassault took very dangerous, or even very stupid, tactics to try to export its Rafale. Any potential foreign customer will ask: “If I have to pay 44.0 million USDs per figher, which is more than enough to buy a brand new MIG-29K or Tejas, to upgrade my old Mirage 2000 today, then how much shall I have to pay to upgrade a Rafale 20 to 25 years later?? A price that is enough to buy a brand new F-35??”
toanScalp isn’t that expensive, and neither is the Mica……
Then the question is just bigger: Even IAF procures 400 MICA and 100 SCALP-EG (which should be very, very luxury for upgrading 50 Mirage), the cost for these weapons should be less than 500 million USDs. The upgrading cost of Mirage 2000 itself is still no less than 34.0 million USDs per fighter.
toanDoes the price include Mica missiles or something?
Nic
One MICA is around 1 million USDs per missile, and one SCALP-EG is around 1.8 million USDs per missile ~ And how many MICAs and SCALP-EGs will IAF need for upgrading just 50 Mirage ?? 😀
toanLet me get this straight:
The IAF says $2,2 bn is too much to bring 50 M2K to -5 Mk2 standard, but they are about to pay $5,2 bn to upgrade 68 Jaguars? :confused:
Dude 😮
Nic
Sorry, it should be 523 million USDs for upgrading 68 Jaguars…..:p
toanA. 5th Generation：
1. FGFA（PAK-FA／T-50）：
* Heavy weight (30 ton class) 5th Gen Russian-Indian stealth fighter.
* IAF plans to invest 6 billion USDs for its R&D.
* IAF hopes to get first productional FGFA in 2017.
* Final goal: around 25 billion USDs for introducing 200 ~ 250 FGFAs.
2. AMCA：
* Medium weight (20 ton class) 5th Gen Indian stealth fighter.
* 5th Gen stealth design.
* Supercruise capability.
* TVC design.
* AESA radar + NG sensors / cockpit / EWS / weapons + Net-centric capability.
* Maiden flight of prototype: around 2020.
* IAF hopes to get the first productional AMCA around 2025.
B. 4th and 4.5 Generation：
1. Su-30MKI：
* 15 billion USDs for 272 Su-30MKI.
* 2012: 44 Su-30MKI for integrating Brahmos-A.
* 2016 MLU plan (initial plan for 50 Su-30MKI ): NG cockpit, AESA radar from FGFA project, and integration of some new weapons.
2. MMRCA：
* 10.8 billion USDs for 126 MMRCA.
* Candidates: EF-2020, Rafale F3-O4T, Gripen NG, Super Hornet International, F-16IN, MIG-35.
* The final winner shall be decided in September, 2011.
* The order may be increased to 189 MMRCA if necessary.
3. MIG-29K：
* 2 billion USDs for 45 MIG-29K.
4. LCA Tejas：
* 8 billion USDs for around 200 LCA Tejas.
* IAF, LCA Tejas MK1: 40 fighters for 2 squadrons before 2015.
* IAF, LCA Tejas MK2: 100 fighters for 5 squadrons (plan in 2009) +/- possible procurement of another batch of 100 fighters.
* Inadian Navy: 40 fighters (Most of them shall be MK2 configuration, plusing a few MK1 fighters for training).
C. Upgrading plans：
1. MIG-29 UPG：
* 964 million USDs for upgrading 63 MIG-29.
* Around 15.3 million USDs per fighter.
* RD33 Serise 3M engine (Life: 2,000 flight hours).
* Bark-88 full digital control system and KSU-941UB remote control system.
* BTsVM-90／BTsVM-486-2 central digital computer system.
* Zhuk-ME radar.
* Others：K-36D-3.5 ejection seat, Sh-3UM-1 HMD, KOLS FLIR unit, upgrading navigation and communication systems, and IFF from Thales.
2. Mirage 2000 H/TH：
* Frenchmen ask 2.2 billion USDs for upgrading 50 Mirage 2000 H/TH.
* Around 44.0 million USDs per fighter (which is more than enough to buy a brand new Tejas MK2).
* The cost is too high for Indian government and IAF to accept up to now.
* Life extension for 20 years.
* RDY-2 radar.
* Cockpit and EWS upgrading.
* MICA AAM.
3. Jaguar DARIN-III：
* 523 million USDs for upgrading 68 Jaguar.
* Around 7.7 million USDs per fighter.
* Elta EL/M-2032 radar.
* NG cockpit.
* F-125IN engines（9,850 Ib*2）.
* The upgrading shall be accomplished before 2017 ~ 2018.
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