toanIt is always stupid to predict what will happen 10 years after.
The UK government believed that the era of manned fighter had been near end in 1957, and the UK would never develop another manned fighter. What has happened since then ??
Never say never, only god knows what will happen in the unforseeable future.
toanRAF, GAF, and ItAF had all used the incapable or outdated fighters like Tornado F3, F4F, and even F-104 to fight against the new Russian 1980s threats like Su-27, MIG-29, and MIG-31 for 20 years (from 1985 to 2005). I think they shall be able to do something like this once again from 2020 to 2040 without problem….. 😀
toanEach of the two fighters has its own advantages for air-defence mission. It all depends on what kind of advantanges you think are more important for your mission requirement, and if I were a Fleet Air Arm commander, I might also think that Superhornet is a better air-defense choice for my requirement comparing with the Typhoon today.
Eurofighter Typhoon:
1. It has better supersonic speed, energy, and maneuverability for BVR combat with other top rank air-superiority enemy fighters.
2. It has better acceleration, climbing performance, and supersonic flying capability for emergent interception missions which need to intercept the approaching targets (hijacked commercial airliners, enemy bombers, cruise missiles, or even the ballistic missiles in the future) as soon as possible.
3. It has better specific excess power and lower wing loading for dealing the high speed and high G A2A maneuvers.
F/A-18E/F Superhornet:
1. It can carry more and bigger external fuel tanks (up to five 1,800L external fuel tanks comparing with Typhoon’s three 1,000L external fuel tanks) for the longer range of A2A missions or longer loitering CAP missions.
2. It can carry more AAMs (up to 14 AAMs comparing with Typhoon’s 8 to 10AAMs) to deal with more A2A or anti-cruise missile engagements.
3. The AESA radar should have the better performance for multiple targets’ engagement and the better resistance to deal with enemy fighter’s tactical maneuvers and ECM.
4. It has better low speed and high AOA flying performance, which is very important for carrier landing.
5. Finally, it is a cheaper and “matured” carrier-based fighter comparing with Typhoon ~ which should be the most important factor for a RN Fleet Air Arm commander:D
toanThe UK has been flying UCAV demonstrators since the 1990s, is it really going to take 40 years to field something?
I have the tremendous confidence that any UK’s or European big military project will become time-delaying, over-expricing, and repeated reorganization (which has always caused more delay and expenditure) ~ Just see the previous examples and stories of NEFA/EFA/EF-2000, NFR-90/Horizon CNGF/Type 45, FSC/VSC/Type 26, Astute class SSN project and so on. All of these products didn’t reach their IOC formally until 15 to 20 years after their developing and manufacturing plans had formally begun. What make you so confident that the UK-owned productional UCAV will be able to enter service after 2020, when the UK and RAF even haven’t start any developing and manufacturing plan for a productional UCAV right now ??
The USAF and USN have begun their future productional UCAV developing works and plans (X-45/X-47/J-UCAS) since the end of 1990s, and we still have no idea just when the productional UCAV from these works and plans will be able to enter USAF and USN services formally in the foreseeable future. And you wish the bankrupted UK government can do this better than USA??
But of course, if UK decides to “Buy American” finally, then it shall be able to get the UCAV much more quickly comparing with choices of Self-developing or European cooperation.
toanUCAVs are the future, the future after 2030.
The problem that RAF will face soon shall hapen at the period of time between2018 to 2030, and during that period, the RAF may have no more than 100 Typhoon and less than 60 (or even no more than 40) Tornado GR4 / F-35C to do all its fighter’s jobs.
toanThe Turkey today has the same class of defense budget as Southern Korea with a lower personal cost. It should not be surprising that Turkish men would like to try something that Southern Korean people have already tried.
The design of F-35 is mainly for A2G striking mission. I think that is the reason why Turkish men want their new national and original 2020 fighter to be designed for A2A mission.
I think the Turkish F-4E shall be replaced by F-35 finally after 2015, and the F-16 will be replaced by this “TF-X” after 2020 to 2030……
toanAs for the future development of HAF’s main opponent…….
Turkey to build ‘national, original’ fighter
Thursday, December 16, 2010
ÜMİT ENGİNSOY
ANKARA – Hürriyet Daily News
Turkey’s top defense procurement committee decided late Wednesday that Ankara would develop and manufacture its next air-to-air fighter aircraft, either by itself or in cooperation with another country, Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said.
Gönül told reporters after a meeting of the Defense Industry Executive Committee that the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, Turkey’s procurement agency, would start talks with Turkish Aerospace Industries, the country’s main aerospace company, for a “conceptual design” of a fighter aircraft and a jet trainer to be built after the year 2020.
“This … effectively is a decision for the making of Turkey’s first fighter aircraft,” he said.
Committee members include Gönül, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Chief of the General Staff Gen. Işık Koşaner and procurement chief Murad Bayar.
Gönül also said Turkey has rejected an offer by the Eurofighter consortium for the sale of Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. “The Eurofighter is off Turkey’s agenda,” he said.
The minister said Turkey may cooperate with South Korea, but implied that this is a small possibility. “We can manufacture the new fighter aircraft with them, we don’t rule this out. But the decision we have taken now calls for the production of a totally national and original aircraft,” he said.
The Eurofighter consortium, the Italian government and Italian companies had recently stepped up efforts for joint development and sale to Turkey of up to 60 jets. Italian Deputy Defense Minister Guido Crosetti in October said Rome wanted to develop a fighter aircraft with Turkey.
Seeking equal partnership
Separately, Turkish and South Korean officials earlier have said that Turkey, South Korea and Indonesia jointly may develop the South Korean-led KF-X fighter aircraft.
But Turkey is now stepping back from this option. “What we need is a true and equal partnership for the development of a fighter. The problem is that South Korea is not likely to agree to an equal partnership,” a senior Turkish procurement told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review, speaking on condition of anonymity.
Turkey already has selected the U.S.-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II as one of its next-generation fighter aircraft types. It plans to buy about 100 F-35 aircraft worth nearly $15 billion. Many Turkish companies are members of the Joint Strike Fighter consortium of nine Western countries, and are producing parts for the aircraft. Turkey also will receive 30 modern F-16 Block 50 fighters from Lockheed Martin as a stopgap solution until F-35 deliveries begin around 2015.
Minister Gönül said Turkey’s newly designed fighter aircraft “would be a next-generation type, would replace the [U.S.-made] F-4Es and would function well with the F-16 and the F-35.” He therefore confirmed that the new aircraft mostly would be meant for air-to-air fighting.
toanAnother European 5th Gen fighter’s hope after PAK-FA ??
Turkey to build ‘national, original’ fighter
Thursday, December 16, 2010
ÜMİT ENGİNSOY
ANKARA – Hürriyet Daily News
Turkey’s top defense procurement committee decided late Wednesday that Ankara would develop and manufacture its next air-to-air fighter aircraft, either by itself or in cooperation with another country, Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said.
Gönül told reporters after a meeting of the Defense Industry Executive Committee that the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, Turkey’s procurement agency, would start talks with Turkish Aerospace Industries, the country’s main aerospace company, for a “conceptual design” of a fighter aircraft and a jet trainer to be built after the year 2020.
“This … effectively is a decision for the making of Turkey’s first fighter aircraft,” he said.
Committee members include Gönül, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Chief of the General Staff Gen. Işık Koşaner and procurement chief Murad Bayar.
Gönül also said Turkey has rejected an offer by the Eurofighter consortium for the sale of Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. “The Eurofighter is off Turkey’s agenda,” he said.
The minister said Turkey may cooperate with South Korea, but implied that this is a small possibility. “We can manufacture the new fighter aircraft with them, we don’t rule this out. But the decision we have taken now calls for the production of a totally national and original aircraft,” he said.
The Eurofighter consortium, the Italian government and Italian companies had recently stepped up efforts for joint development and sale to Turkey of up to 60 jets. Italian Deputy Defense Minister Guido Crosetti in October said Rome wanted to develop a fighter aircraft with Turkey.
Seeking equal partnership
Separately, Turkish and South Korean officials earlier have said that Turkey, South Korea and Indonesia jointly may develop the South Korean-led KF-X fighter aircraft.
But Turkey is now stepping back from this option. “What we need is a true and equal partnership for the development of a fighter. The problem is that South Korea is not likely to agree to an equal partnership,” a senior Turkish procurement told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review, speaking on condition of anonymity.
Turkey already has selected the U.S.-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II as one of its next-generation fighter aircraft types. It plans to buy about 100 F-35 aircraft worth nearly $15 billion. Many Turkish companies are members of the Joint Strike Fighter consortium of nine Western countries, and are producing parts for the aircraft. Turkey also will receive 30 modern F-16 Block 50 fighters from Lockheed Martin as a stopgap solution until F-35 deliveries begin around 2015.
Minister Gönül said Turkey’s newly designed fighter aircraft “would be a next-generation type, would replace the [U.S.-made] F-4Es and would function well with the F-16 and the F-35.” He therefore confirmed that the new aircraft mostly would be meant for air-to-air fighting.
toanThe American may lose the Brazilian F-X competition.
And it is the job for Lisa Kubiske-Charge dÁffairs A.I. U.S. Embassy Brazil to give the reason why American may lose the competition to the European competitor.
And apparently, “It is because that the American fighter is the inferior one” won’t be the ideal answer for Lisa Kubiske-Charge dÁffairs A.I. U.S. Embassy Brazil 🙁
“It is because of the devil plot from the evil Frenchmen and the corruption of Lula that make the innocent and honorable American Boeing’s Superior Hornet lose this unfair game!!!” is much more politically correct and acceptable…….:D
Even if the most possible winner of Brazilian F-X competition today is not Rafale but PAK-FA/T-50, I think Mrs.Lisa would still give the same or similar reasons why American may lose the competition.
toanThe Frenchmen have sent more than 3,000 troops and some of their best equipments (Rafales + AASM, Tigre HAPs, and so on) to the Afghanistan for supporting American military action there, and now what payback they get ?? The USA military commander’s comment of “The outdated army with yesterday’s techonology” ??? What a thanksgiving.
I really think the France should withdraw its “yesterday’s troops” away from the Afghanistan right now, and just let American “tomorrow’s army” do its own job alone.
toanhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/232927
US embassy cables: Bahrain king says Iranian nuclear programme must be stopped
(S/NF) BAHRAIN AIR SHOW AND NUCLEAR ENERGY: King Hamad asked General Petraeus for his help in encouraging U.S. aircraft manufacturers to participate in the inaugural Bahrain Air Show, scheduled for January 2010. He said that France was pushing the Rafale and would be there in force, although he agreed with Petraeus that the French fighter was yesterday’s technology. Warming to the subject of French commercial diplomacy and referring to President Sarkozy, King Hamad said, “The UAE will give him a hard time soon,” over France’s proposed deal for nuclear reactors. “They’re not happy with the project he’s offered them.”
toanIt takes no job away from the French workers ~ This plan can not become the truth until the French government finally decides that it simply has no enough money to formally the start PA2 project. And if the French government decides to cancel the PA2 project finally, the French workers won’t be able to get any new jobs from this cancelled project, no matter UK sells the unwanted CVF to the French navy or not.
toanThe France or Italian government doesn’t have to pay the original price for a CVF, because the UK government has to procure the two CVFs at first according to the contract with BAES.
The price and the contract that the future UK government sells the unwanted CVF to French or Italian navy can be negotiate, which may in the end become something like:
“I (UK) pay the price for building this ship, and I sell it to you (French navy or Italian navy) with a representative cost (such as 1 Euro dollar or so), you pay the main costs and manpower for operating, maintaining, and upgrading this ship, and my airforce and navy should have the right to co-use this ship when my own CVF is unavailable……..”
toanWhy not just sell the unwanted CVF to French navy for replacing the expensive PA2 project, or to the Italian navy for replacing the Giuseppe Garibaldi ??
The UK can sell it to French or Italian navy with a price that is much cheaper than designing and building a completely new air-craft carrier. In exchange, the RAF and RN shall have the right to co-use this ship when they need it, and the French navy and / or Italian navy also has / have the right to co-use UK’s CVF when its / their carriers are unavailable.
toanhttp://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aw/dti0108/index.php?startpage=38
The original Aster-30 Block1 has been declared to have the capability for engaging the Ballistic missile of 600 km class.
The future Aster-30 Block2 shall be an ATBM with dual-rocket accelerator, maximal speed of seven Mach-class, kinetic hunting vehicle of PAC-3 style, and the ABM capability for engaging the ballistic missile of 1500 to 2000 km class.
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