dark light

toan

Forum Replies Created

Viewing 15 posts - 526 through 540 (of 909 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • in reply to: Modern fighters combat radius; #2387583
    toan
    Participant

    Declarations and Estimations of Combat Radius for Some Modern Fighters:

    1. With internal fuel only:

    F-35C:700 NM/1,300 km (AIM-120*2 + 2,000 Ib JDAM*2).

    F-35A:600 NM/1,100 km (AIM-120*2 + 2,000 Ib JDAM*2).

    F-35B:450 NM/830 km (AIM-120*2 + 1,000 Ib JDAM*2).

    EF-2000:350 NM/650 km (MRAAM*4 + SRAAM*2 + 7,000 Ib AG weapons, lo-lo-lo).

    F/A-18C/D:350 NM/650 km (2,000 Ib AG weapon*2).

    JAS-39C/D:350 NM/650 km (1,000 Ib AG weapon*3, lo-lo-lo).

    F-16C/D:260 NM/480 km (2,000 Ib AG weapon*2).

    AV-8B:250 NM/460 km (1,000 Ib AG weapon*2).

    2. With external fuel tanks +/- CFTs:

    RAFALE:more than 800 NM/1,480 km(2,000 L tanks*3 + GBU-12*4 or SCALP-EG*2 + AAM*4;Another 15~20% increase in combat radius with the help of CFTs).

    F-16IN:918 NM/1,700 km(3,300 Ib weapons + The help of CFTs).

    EF-2000:800 NM/1,480 km(1,000 L tanks*2 + 1,000 Ib LGB*4 + AAM*6).

    F-16C/D:450 NM/833 km(2,000 Ib AG weapon*2 + The help of 1,400 L tanks).

    JAS-39C/D:450 NM/833 km(1,000 Ib AG weapon*2 + external fuel tank*1, lo-lo-lo).

    in reply to: Rafale News IX #2391991
    toan
    Participant

    1. RAFALE F3(2008 ~ 2012):
    A. The first real omnirole Rafale.
    B. New weapons and equipments:RECO-NG, DAMOCLES, ASMP-A, AM-39, GBU-24, and laser-guided rocket pod.
    C. RBE-2 PESA radar(AESA upgrading in future)。
    D. FSO or FSO-IT.
    E. ROVER capability.
    F. Every in-service Rafale in France has become F3 configuration after Feb, 2010.

    2. Rafale F3-O4T(2012 ~ 2017):
    A. The first productional fighter with AESA radar in Europe.
    B. New weapons and equipments:Damocles XF, new members of AASM family.
    C. RBE-2 AESA radar.
    D. FSO-IT.
    E. DDM-NG.
    F. SATCOM data-link.
    G. Spectra EWS upgrading.
    H. Possible upgrading choice: HMD.
    I. M88 TCO upgrading.

    3. Rafale UAE(2013 ~ ):
    A. Possibly the first member of Rafale with thrust enhancement.
    B. New weapon:Meteor BVRAAM.
    C. The main electronic equipments should be the same as Rafale F3-O4T.
    D. GMTT mode.
    E. New M88 engine with thrust enhancement (20,000 Ib class).
    F. RCS reduction.
    G. Improvement in weapon load capability at tropic area(SCALP-EG*3 + 2,000 L tank*2 + AAM*4)。

    4. Rafale Batch 5(2018 ~ 2023):
    A. Possibly the first member of Rafale with active stealthy techonology.
    B. New weapon:Meteor BVRAAM.
    C. Upgrading RBE-2 AESA radar(GaN??)+/- side-looking airborne radar antenna.
    D. GMTT mode.
    E. OSF-NG(Techonology of laser radar image??).
    F. DDM-NG upgrading.
    G. Upgrading for Data Fusion/SATCOM.
    H. Upgrading for SPECTRA EWS.
    I. Other possible upgrading choices: Active stealthy techonology, LDIRCM, HMD-NG etc…..

    5. Rafale MLU (Post-2020 to 2025…..):
    A. Mid-life upgrading for another 20 to 25 years.
    B. Completely new radar and other sensor systems.
    C. New M88 engine with thrust enhancement.
    D. CFTs for combat range enhancement.
    E. Major improvements in fighter’s stealth, EWS, and combat survivability.
    F. Remote controller of UCAV.

    in reply to: Yet another F-35 thread #2409251
    toan
    Participant

    1. F-22A Raptor:

    A. Fly-away cost:142.6 million USD(2009).

    B. Estimated unit productional cost in 2010 ~ 2015: 173.0 ~ 227.0 million USDs (RAND’s estimation, supposed the USAF is allowed to buy another 75 new Raptors in the next five years).

    C. Unit total cost:355.2 million USD(2008).

    D. Estimated unit cost for exporting: 290 million USD (Estimated R&D + fly-away cost for F-22J).

    2. F-35 Lightening II:

    A. Fly-away cost: Can’t be determined until it enters the stage of full-speed production after 2016.

    B. Anticipated unit productional cost:
    * From 2007 to 2010: 248.3 million USD (58 fighters).
    * From 2007 to 2015: 172.4 million USD (420 fighters).
    * From 2007 to 2034: 111.9 million USD (2,443 fighters).

    C. Anticipated total unit cost: 132.3 million USD (2,443 fighters).

    3. EF-2000 Typhoon:

    A. Fly-away cost: 70 ~ 80 million USD.

    B. Unit productional cost: 55.0 ~ 69.3 million GBP according to different kind of sources (2008).

    C. Anticipated unit total cost: > or = 82.0 million GBP.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmdfence/572/57206.htm

    The in-service date for Typhoon (defined as the date of delivery of the first aircraft to the RAF ) was achieved in 2003—some 54 months late. The current forecast cost of Typhoon is £19,018 million, compared to £16,670 million approved at Main Gate. Typhoon is being produced in three tranches. Contracts for the production of the first tranche of 148 aircraft, of which 55 are for the RAF, were signed in 1998. Future production orders would commit the UK to 89 and 88 aircraft for tranches two and three respectively.

    D. Exporting costs (RSAF, 2007):
    * Unit exporting cost of initial contract: around 120 million USD per fighter.
    * Estimated total life time (25 years) unit cost: around 264 million USD per fighter.

    4. Rafale:

    A. Fly-away cost: 65 ~ 75 million USD.

    B. Unit productional cost: 101.1 million Euro / 135.5 ~ 141.5 million USD (2009).

    C. Anticipated unit productional cost:
    * From 1997 to 2030 for 286 fighters: 142.3 million Euro / 190.7 ~ 199.2 million USD (2009).

    D. Exporting costs (BrAF FX-2 in 2010):
    * 36 fighters for 8.2 billion –> 6.2 billion USD (228 –> 172 million USD per fighter, including the costs for logistic / support / training…).

    5. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet:

    A. Fly-away cost:
    * 54 million USD in 2007.
    * May be reduced to less than 50 million USD if USN buys more.

    D. Exporting costs (BrAF FX-2 in 2010):
    * 36 fighters for 5.7 billion USD (158 million USD per fighter, including the costs for logistic / support / training…).

    6. JAS-39NG Gripen

    A. Declared to have the price of 1/2 of the Rafale, and the operational cost of 1/4 of Rafale(BrAF FX-2 in 2010).

    D. Exporting costs (BrAF FX-2 in 2010):
    * 36 fighters for 4.5 billion USD (125 million USD per fighter, including the costs for logistic / support / training…).

    7. F-16C/D Block52:

    A. Fly-away cost:40 ~ 45 million USD.

    D. Exporting costs (Egypt AF in 2009):
    * 24 fighters for 3.2 billion USD (133 million USD per fighter, including the costs for logistic / support / training and some weapons).

    in reply to: Yet another F-35 thread #2409354
    toan
    Participant

    Costs for a fighter:

    1. Fly-away cost: the price of buying fighter itself.

    2. Unit production cost: Fly-away cost + costs of productional facility and tools + costs for logistic / support / training + national tax etc……

    3. Unit total cost: Unit R&D cost + Unit production cost.

    4. Unit total life-time cost: Unit R&D cost + Unit production cost + Unit service cost for 20-25 years.

    5. Unit exporting cost: Fly-away cost + costs of logistic / support / training / weapon / techonology transferring +/- unit service cost for 20-25 years.

    in reply to: Yet another F-35 thread #2409439
    toan
    Participant

    Now divide it by 187 and what do you get? All of a sudden that Rafale’s looking iridium plated.

    The R&D cost of F-22A (class of 30 ~ 35 billion USD) is nearly two times of the R&D cost of Rafale, and the anticipated productional number of Raptor today is less than 2/3 of the anticipated productional number of Rafale.

    * Unit fly-away cost of F-22A in 2009: 142.6 million USD.

    * Unit total cost (including the R&D cost) of F-22A in 2008: 65 billion USD / 183 fighters = 355.2 million USD.

    in reply to: Yet another F-35 thread #2412033
    toan
    Participant

    If i’m reading it right and they are the same year dollar, the rafale is 199 mil and the f-35 is 133 mil…….

    That is mainly because the R&D cost of JSF is divided by 2,443 fighters, while the R&D cost of Rafale, although much less than JSF (PS), is divided by 286 fighters, which makes the average R&D cost per fighter for Rafale nearly three times of the average R&D cost per fighter for JSF.

    PS:

    The estimated R&D cost for Rafale: (142.3 million – 101.1 million) * 286 = 11.8 billion Euro, or around 16.5 billion USD in 2009.

    in reply to: Yet another F-35 thread #2412074
    toan
    Participant

    The last time that UK MoD officially reported the unit productional cost for Eurofighter was 69.3 million GBP per fighter in 2008. Since then, the UK MoD keeps the cost of Typhoon as an unspeakable secret.

    PS: The price of GPB changed dramatically (from 2.1 USD per GPB to 1.5 – 1.6 USD per GPB) during 2008 because of the world financial crisis. Therefore, I think it is very hard to evaluate the price of Typhoon at the basis of USD at that time.

    in reply to: Yet another F-35 thread #2412169
    toan
    Participant

    F-35:

    1. Average unit productional cost from 2007 to 2010 for 58 fighters: 248.3 million USD per fighter.

    2. Anticipated unit average productional cost from 2007 to 2015 for 420 fighters: 172.4 million USD per fighter.

    3. Anticipated unit average productional cost from 2007 to 2034 for 2443 fighters: 111.9 million USD per fighter.

    4. Anticipated unit average R&D + Productional cost from 2007 to 2034 for 2443 fighters: 132.3 million USD per fighter.

    Rafale:

    1. Average unit productional cost in 2009: 101.1 million Euro per fighter –> Around 141.5 million USD in 2009 or 135.5 million USD right now.

    2. Anticipated unit R&D + Productional cost from 1997 to 2030 for 286 fighters: 142.3 million Euro per fighter –> Around 199.2 million USD in 2009 or 190.7 million USD right now.

    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/tab1-18-02-10.jpg

    in reply to: Yet another F-35 thread #2414351
    toan
    Participant

    So “major development” will end in 2012, but “full speed production” will not start until 2016? I am still a bit puzzled by this.

    Anyway, it still looks pretty good for the partners. 🙂

    Sorry, wrong typing…..

    in reply to: Yet another F-35 thread #2414589
    toan
    Participant

    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10382.pdf

    GAO’s report for JSF project of USA in 2010:

    1. The time for the end of major development:
    * Initial plan in 2001:2012 April.
    * The newest plan today:2016 April.

    2. Time for full-speed prodution:
    * Initial plan in 2001:2013, October.
    * The newest plan today:2016, April.

    3. R&D cost:
    * Initial plan in 2001:34.4 billion USD.
    * The total R&D cost for JSF today:49.8 billion USD(+45%).

    4. Productional cost:
    * Initial plan in 2001:196.6 billion USD for 2,852 fighters –> 68.9 million USD per fighter.
    * The newest plan today:273.3 billion USD for 2,443 fighters –> 111.9 million USD per fighter(+62%).

    5. Total Cost (R&D cost + Productional cost):
    * Initial plan in 2001:231.0 billion USD for 2,852 fighters –> 81.0 million USD per fighter.
    * The newest plan today:323.1 billion USD for 2,443 fighters –> 132.3 million USD per fighter (+63%).

    6. The total procurement cost and number of JSF:
    * 2007 ~ 2010: 14.4 billion USD for 58 fighters –> 248.3 million USD per JSF.
    * 2007 ~ 2015: 72.4 billion USD for 420 fighters –> 172.4 million USD per JSF.

    in reply to: Rafale v Typhoon and the F22… #2421150
    toan
    Participant

    AFM 2010, April:

    Two articles for 2009 ATLC in UAE, UK/American view and French view:

    1. During the 40-day deployment, the six F-22A flew 86 sorties, including 36 DACT sorties (all WVR dogfights) with other airforces.

    2. The pilot of F-22A insisted that the six Raptors had been undefeated during the whole DACT sorties and had blown the competition out of the water.

    3. Raptor pilot’s comment to the opponents:

    * To PAF/F-7PG: “Battle hardened pilots with eagerness to learn ; and F-7PG is an interesting asymmetric threat aircraft.”

    * To UAE AF/Mirage 2000-9 and F-16E/F:

    “Highly professional and respectable warriors, the highly maneuverable (especially close-in) Mirage 2000-9s + UAE pilots with 3,000 hours experience gave a real challenge to the young Raptor pilots”

    “The avionics of F-16E/F is awesome.”

    * To French AF/Rafale: “An impressive and good fighter that combines avionics and maneuverability. It is on a par with our F-15s and F-16s, at least.”

    4. The commander of EC 1/7, Lt Col Fabrice Grandclaudon’s response to UK/American claims for ATLC exercise:

    “The victory of Raptors over Rafale during six BFM encounters was not an overwhelming one. Not like the one we claimed against the Typhoons after exercise in Solenzara, Corsica during September, 2009 (9 set-up: 8 to 1 for Rafale).

    “The scenario for Rafale’s two proud victories (4:0 and 3:1) over Typhoon that I have mentioned was:
    * The continuous training slot between FAF and RAF.
    * Red team: two Rafales (perhaps plus two Typhoons…..).
    * Blue team: four Typhoons.
    * The two Rafales of red team stimulated Russian MIG-29 or Su-27 + AA-10C at that time, so they were limited to shoot only at one target at the same time, and they had no fire-and-forget capability ~ That is why Lt Col Fabrice Grandclaudon is so proud for this two victories.”

    However, according to the article, the number of DACT exercise between RAF and FAF during this continuous training slot (which last for more than 3 weeks) should be much more than just two times. Therefore, it seems that Lt Col Fabrice Grandclaudon didn’t tell the complete story and the whole truth……..

    in reply to: Rafales for Brasil #3, Cachorro-quente! #2427292
    toan
    Participant

    A good reason / excuse for Lula not to buy from USA…….:rolleyes:

    If you have done something that make Uncle Sam unhappy, then even you are the best and most loyal partner (like UK) for USA, and even your product has just used the minimal technology from US (like Eurofighter), you and your product will still suffer the punishment from the mighty Uncle Sam…..

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7aec17a6-2b1a-11df-93d8-00144feabdc0.html

    US grounds BAE export applications

    By Sylvia Pfeifer in London and Stephanie Kirchgaessner,in Washington

    in reply to: Hot Dog Typhoon thread III #2432302
    toan
    Participant

    http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4499912&c=EUR&s=AIR

    Selex Deal Will Put AESA Radars on RAF Typhoons

    By Andrew Chuter

    Published: 16 Feb 2010 08:04

    1. The Royal Air Force could be test flying an active electronically scanned array radar on a Typhoon fighter within three years following a deal between the British Ministry of Defence and Selex Galileo to develop and build the key new sensor as part of a technology demonstrator program.

    2. Selex Galileo, an arm of Italian-based Finmeccanica, has signed a 19 million pound ($29.8 million) contract with the MoD to lead a demonstrator program likely to run for up to five years as the British look to de-risk the technology ahead of a likely fielding on Eurofighter-built Typhoons, said an MoD source.

    3. An MoD spokesman confirmed details of the deal with Selex Galileo on Feb. 16. A formal decision on whether to push ahead with an AESA development program is expected from the Eurofighter nations in the next couple of months.

    4. The British development will use Selex Galileo’s so-called swashplate architecture, which allows the radar’s angled antenna to be rotated. Other AESA radars developed in the U.S and France use fixed antenna.

    5. Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini told reporters at the Dubai air show last year that a number of technology options were being looked at, but he believed the partner nations would go down the swashplate route.

    6. Prior to that, analysts here say similar technology was flown by the British in a program known as Advanced Radar Targeting System (ARTS). Launched in 2006 ARTS was led by Qinetiq and involved Selex Galileo’s AESA radar with the aim of upgrading Tornado GR4 capabilities. The program was eventually shelved for lack of funds.

    toan
    Participant

    GRIPEN.

    toan
    Participant

    With the exception of the Rafales using their radars, which means a quick death by Raptors, what surprise you inside that report ? There is nothing new.

    First thing that is new to me:

    The previous report said that there had been no BVR game between Raptor and Rafale during the ATLC, and this article said that there had been BVR games between the two fighters during the exercise.

    Second thing that is new to me:

    The previous French declaration said that Rafale had only been locked by Rafale once during the six dogfights. This article said that Raptor had killed Rafale twice at least during the dogfights without much difficulty.

    Third thing that is new to me:

    Many previous reports and articles suggested that the non-real stealthy fighters might be able to held their own to against the real stealthy fighter with the help of IRST, advanced EWS localization, passive triangulation and so on…..And according to this French article, I see how functional the advanced EWS localization and passive triangulation are ~ to let the real stealthy fighter kill the non-real stealthy fighters even more easily and stealthily without the need to switch on its LPI radar.

    Fourth thing that I am awared of:

    I see no provement of the anti-stealth capability of IRSTs declared by some manufacturers before during this exercise.

    Fifth thing that is amazing to me:

    Such article is published by a French magazine, not by a American or British one…….:D

Viewing 15 posts - 526 through 540 (of 909 total)