toanFair enough, but they were also beating AESA equipped F-15s and Super Hornets. Were the aircraft fighting the Typhoon so equipped? Just curious.
I think the most of, if not all of, the Eagles that the Raptors have defeated in the past few years during the exercises are the Eagles from aggressor squadrons, which should have no AESA radar equipment.
Actually up to now, I’ve never heard any official or public report that Raptor(s) has (have) defeated the Eagles with AESA radar equipments (APG-63v2 or APG-63v3) and several times of quantitative advantage during the exercise(s). I would be very gratitude if you can offer me one…..
toanSferrin.
Typhoon wipes the floor with F-15K or F-16E/F.
Sintra.
Toan was implying that we had whined and moaned when Rafale ‘beat’ Typhoon (he doesn’t seem to get it that we were pointing out that such a claim was wrong), and that now that F-15 had similarly been ‘beaten’ the F-15 supporters would do as we had supposedly done.
1. Do you mean that Typhoon wiped the floor with F-16E during the ATLC exercise ???
2. All I know is that you have declared that the declaration of French side (Rafale wiped the floor with EF-2000 in the two courses of 4 v.s 4 exercise with the final exchange ratio of 7:1 during the ATLC exercise…..) as a wrong one, but I don’t see what was really happened between Rafale and EF-2000 during the ATLC exercise, according to your English side of information……
Do you mean that the fight between the EF-2000 and Rafale never happened during the exercise, so the declaration of French side is completely wrong ??
Or do you mean that although the fight between the EF-2000 and Rafale had been happened during the exercise, the final result of exchange ratio was not what the French side declared, but something else ???
Or do you mean the RoE was extremely unfair to RAF side when fighting with FAF, so any kind of exchange ratio between the EF-2000 and Rafale during the ATLC exercise was simply meaningless ???
toanA simple question I would like to ask (although I guess it may have no answer here….) :
“Had the eight USAF’s F-15 been allowed to do their best to fight with the Typhoons, before the seven of them were declared to be killed by the two SpAF’s Eurofighters ???”
toanAm i missing something or is this 35 year old aircraft the same one that the F22 has been stomping all over which then resulted in all the puff about the F22’s abilities…? :rolleyes:
Well, when the Eagles with four times quantitative advantage are slaughtered by Raptor(s), this is the best evidence to prove the Almighty of F-22A.
But when the Eagles with four times quantitative advantage are defeated by Typhoons, this proves nothing but F-15 is a fighter of 35 years ago.
What an esoteric American philosophy:D
toanSo they’re bragging about beating an aircraft that entered service 35 years ago? Um,…wow? :rolleyes: That’d be like bragging that the F-15 stomped all over a flight of Me 262s. Do it against F-22s and I’ll be impressed. :diablo:
I think the F-22A pilots / manufacturer / supporters have also made this kind of bragging for many times since 2004. If you don’t think beating the Eagle with four times quantitative advantage as an achievement, you should criticize Raptor’s advertisements at first……:D
toanI think it is time for American yelling:
“Such kind of training exercise is totally not a big deal and entirely unrepresentative.”
“Show me the ROE !!! I bet it must be extremely unfair to the Eagles’ side!!!”
http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/10231950/8216We-will-shift-workload.html?pg=2
Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, EADS Defence and Security:
“Looking at the official reports of the exercises that have been done by the four European air forces in exercises with other air forces, in all cases that I know in the last two years, the Eurofighter was the winner. All other aircraft were the losers. They beat everything.”
================================================== ================================================== ================================================== ==================================
Once, again, when Typhoon wins, the Typhoon’s supporters declare:
“This is because Typhoon is a much superior and formidable fighter compared with any fighter other than F-22A today.”
“The Eurofighter is the winner. All other aircraft are the losers.”
And when Typhoon lose, Typhoon’s supporters say:
“The RoE may be unfair for Typhoon.”
“The training results is not a big deal and entirely unrepresentative.”
How fair and justifying you are……..
toan1. French MoD signed the contract of Commande Globale n° 4 (Global Order n° 4) on Dec 31, 2009.
2. The new order includes 50 Rafale B/C and 10 Rafale M, plus an option to upgrade a number of French navy Rafale F1s to the latest F3 standard.
3. As of the end of 2009, Dassault had delivered 82 Rafales (54 for the air force and 28 for the navy), of which three have been lost in accidents. Deliveries in 2010 are due to total 11 aircraft (8 for the air force, 3 for the navy), and will bring the total number of Rafales delivered by end 2010 to 93.
toanRaptor and Rafale had played six 1 vs 1 cannon dogfighting games with each other during the entire ATLC exercise. Raptor won one of these games, while the other five were even.
1. It seems that they didn’t play any real and complicated BVR +/- EW game with each other during this exercise.
2. I’ve heard some information that F-22s often executed their own missions with two 2,270 L external fuel tanks under their main wings during the ATLC 2009, and I wonder if the Rapor still carried its super large external fuel tanks when playing dogfighting game with Rafale……
toanToan,
I take the AdlA claims about F-22/Typhoon in ATLC with a grain of salt not because I don’t know about RoE, but because they’re wrong.The first thing was that they sounded wrong. They sounded unexpected and exaggerated.
Then what is the truth ??? Up to now I still see no English explanation or description to what had happened between Typhoon and Rafale during the ATLC exercise.
You said the French / FAF declaration for this event is not right. Then what is the English / RAF explanation / description for this event ???
toanAny ideas / reasons / excuses that have been mentioned is this thread to argue the fairness of Rafale’s victory over Typhoon during the ATLC 2009 can also be used to question the English and Germany reports of Typhoon’s victories over F-15C / F-15E / F-16C / Mirage / Rafale / Su-30MKI and so on during the international exercises since 2004.
If you take the Rafale’s victory this time with a grain of salt because of no ROE revealed publically, you should also take the reports for Eurofighter’s A2A achievement during international exercises in the past few years with a grain of salt ~ Since we also have no idea if the Typhoons of RAF / GAF / ItAF / SpAF really defeated the opponents that had done their best and then created the exchange ratio like 49:1 or 7:0………
toanCan anyone tell me why the EF wasn’t shortlisted in Brazil? Were there any official statements, or any requirements that it wasn’t able to fullfil?
The price and maintenance cost that are no less than Rafale + Extremely slow pace for upgrading A2G capability and multifunction ~ For example, according to the upgrading plan today, Typhoon may not be able to formally equip long-range smart A2G weapons (such as Storm Shadow / Taurus cruise missiles, SPEAR, SDB and so on….) until 2015 ~ the capability which Rafale has had since 2006.
Of course you can say that the foreign customers can acquire such capability earlier if they really want it on their own Typhoon ~ but who will have to pay the necessary costs for such early incorporation ??
It is true that many of the Gripen NG’s capabilities are still not proven either. However, the price and the maintenance cost that SAAB has promised to FAB is much lower than Eurofighter……
toanNow, there is the real gift for the Rafale’s supporters………
New Version of Air Force Report Pleases [President]
(Source: O Estado de Sao Paulo; published Jan. 8, 2010)
(Published in Portuguese; unofficial translation by defense-aerospacce.com)
The final report of the [Brazilian] Air Force Command on the FX-2 program, which involves the purchase of 36 fighters in a deal estimated to be worth over 10 billion Brazilian reals, has satisfied the Presidential Palace. The document indicates that the Rafale aircraft made by the French company Dassault, and the F-18 Super Hornet made by Boeing, have technical and military capabilities that rank them above the Swedish Saab Gripen NG.
The Ministry of Defense confirmed the delivery of the final evaluation report, which comprises 390 pages. A close aide to President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva has also had access to the document.
The contents of the new report – modified under government pressure, and which now states the French Rafale as the best competitor – contrast with the previous version, in which the Air Force ranked the Gripen NG on top of the list.
Rafale, which is the favorite of Lula and Minister of Defense Nelson Jobim, was ranked in third place by the Air Force, due to its higher costs. The publication of the conclusions by the Folha de Sao Paulo earlier [last] week angered the Presidency, which considered it as an attempt by the Air Force to force through its own choice in the final round, and which was described by government officials harmful to “national security”.
“I do not think it’s good to leak to the public a report from Defense. It affects national security. It may not cause problems today, but they may become more visible in the future,” said the Lula aide, who had access to the report’s final version.
The new document does not rank the three finalists, as did the previous one. But it details the advantages of the Rafale and F-18 Super Hornet fighters as facts, since these aircraft are in production, tested and have two engines. The Gripen NG must be developed and is single-engined.
toanhttp://www.livemint.com/2009/08/10231950/8216We-will-shift-workload.html?pg=2
Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, EADS Defence and Security:
“Looking at the official reports of the exercises that have been done by the four European air forces in exercises with other air forces, in all cases that I know in the last two years, the Eurofighter was the winner. All other aircraft were the losers. They beat everything.”
========================================================================================================================================================================================
FAF officially declared that Rafale had defeated Typhoon during the ATLC exercise of 2009, and RAF has no comment for this declaration up to now.
The supporters of Eurofighter inquire if Rafale defeated Typhoon under a fair ROE, that’s a natural and understandable response. But here I would like to ask to all of you: “Did you have the same suspicious spirit for the Typhoon’s victories during the international exercises in the past few years??”
When Typhoon had won, you declared:
“This is because Typhoon is a much superior and formidable fighter compared with any fighter other than F-22A today.”
“The Eurofighter was the winner. All other aircraft were the losers.”
And now Typhoon has lost, you say:
“The RoE may be unfair for Typhoon.”
“The training results is not a big deal and entirely unrepresentative.”
How fair and justifying you are……..:D
toanSukhoi had declared the frontal RCS of Su-47 as 0.3 m2 class ~ I think it would not be reasonable if it declared a bigger frontal RCS for FGFA…….
toanAFM, Jan, 2010
Typhoon Over Spain
by Ian Harding, Chris Lofting, and Keith Chilton
1. Before the end of 2009, Spanish AF has acquired 26 EF-2000s in total (19 Tranche I and 7 Tranche II).
2. The experience of Spanish AF’s pilot for the flight performance of EF-2000:
“A fighter that is born for flying supersonically ~ even at the height of 10,000ft (3,048 m), flying Typhoon at speeds below Mach 0.9 is not good for the aircraft.”
“The supersonical tendency of Typhoon causes problem sometimes to slow it down, especially during the flight of high AoA. There is no idle speed.”
“Typhoon performs just as well configured with extra wing and centreline fuel tanks plus weapons. The only noticeable difference is the extra 10 kts required for rotation.”
3. During a recent international exercise, two Spanish Typhoons had engaged eight F-15s in one stimulated A2A mission, and the two Typhoon scored hits of seven Eagles finally.
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