toanYes, but will the Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen NG even be in production in another 10 plus years??? Personally, I have my doubts unless they win a big order like the MMRCA. Which, I believe will go to the Super Hornet.
1. Even without any foreign order, the production of Rafale should still be able to be remained to the period of 2020 to 2025 at least, unless the future French government decides to cancel the any further domestic requirement for Rafale after Rafale F3-O4T.
2. EF-2000 may be able to maintain its production for around another 10 years, if UK/German/Italy can find more foreign customers (such as Saudi Arabia) to digest their Tranch 3B orders.
3. Gripen NG may have the most difficulty to maintain its long term production, since the Switzerland airforce today has more than 100 redundant 2nd-handed GRIPENs for sales……
toan1. According to the plan right now, the France will still have at least near 300 fighters (180 plus Rafales and 100 plus Mirage 2000 series) before 2020.
2. The cut of Eurofighter’s orders in European countries may not be a good news for F-35, since the orders are cut not because the customers want to buy more F-35, but because of the severe financial crisis of the European customers, which will also theaten the exportation of F-35.
toanRAF:
* EF-2000: 232 –> 160
* F-35B: 138 –> 50
GAF:
* EF-2000: 180 –> 143.
* No confirmative plan for buying F-35 up to now.
ItAF and Navy:
* EF-2000: 121 –> 96 (without Tranche 3B).
* 109 F-35A (for airforce) + 22 F-35B (for Navy) after 2014.
SpAF:
* EF-2000: 87 (No plan for reduction up to now).
* No confirmative plan for buying F-35 up to now.
toan…Silence…
Apparently F22 canceled ATLC, in the last minute.
Anyone?
What is the original source of this information ??
toanhttp://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4384702&c=AIR&s=TOP
Germany To Cut Eurofighter Order, Seek Exports
By THOMAS NEWDICK
Published: 19 Nov 2009 12:45
BERLIN – Germany’s coalition government has confirmed that the Luftwaffe will not receive its final batch of Eurofighters. To date, Germany has firmly committed to 143 aircraft; now Tranche 3B, covering the final 37 jets originally planned for the Luftwaffe, will instead be made available for export.
Faced with penalties for non-acceptance of the 37 remaining aircraft, the German government has decided to put these Eurofighters up for sale, under an agreement issued by the new coalition government. The decision may appease Eurofighter officials, since there will be no reduction in the original 180-aircraft German order.
toanEurofighter / SELEX: “The Captor-M is second to none of the first generation AESA radars today !!!”
Potential foreign customers: “Sure…..just give us a god damn practical AESA solution, or we will go for another fighter / radar manufacturers who offer it.”
DATE:18/11/09
SOURCE:Flight International
Selex: Eurofighter partners near agreement on AESA radar
By Craig Hoyle
The Eurofighter partner nations are moving towards an agreement to integrate an active electronically scanned array radar with the type, as discussions over Tranche 3A production near a conclusion.
“We are talking at great length, and there is a gradual coming together,” says Bob Mason, vice-president marketing and sales for Selex Galileo, prime contractor and design authority for the Eurofighter Typhoon’s current mechanically scanned Captor radar. “A lot of things are pulling E-scan to the fore, and we expect some sort of agreement within two to three months.”
Selex, which produces over 50% of the Captor system at its facilities in Edinburgh, Scotland and Milan, Italy, believes the addition of an AESA array will be a vital step towards the Typhoon securing additional sales with nations such as India and Japan.
“The Typhoon needs an E-scan radar, or it will not export,” says Mason. Rival types such as the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Dassault Rafale are already being offered with AESA systems.
A prototype of the company’s Vixen 1000E/Raven ES05 is also now in flight test with Saab’s Gripen Demo airframe, with this viewed as a de-risking activity for a possible larger version for the Typhoon.
“E-scan was previously looked at as risky and potentially costly. Now the risk of doing nothing is worse,” says Alastair Morrison, deputy senior vice-president radar and advanced targeting for Selex Galileo. “It’s in everyone’s interest to make this work.”
Selex says an AESA array could now be produced for the same cost as a mechanically scanned system, but deliver a five- to 10-times increase in mean-time between critical failures, reducing maintenance and other through-life support costs.
The new technology also brings advances in detection range and performance, for example by operating “virtually instantaneously” in both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes. Selex has also developed a “swashplate repositioner”, which enables the normally fixed AESA array to be moved laterally by +/-100°. “Germany now believes a repositioner of some sort is desirable,” says Mason.
Separately, Mason says Selex is now investigating wider uses for AESA radar technology, including possible communications and electronic attack modes. “We are looking at all applications,” he says.
toan🙁
what are the army and navy doing for cuts?
Royal Navy:
F-35B: 138 –> 50 (?)
SSBN: 4 –> 3.
SSN: 12 –> 6 to 8.
Type 45 destroyer: 12 –> 6.
Type 22 and 23 frigates since 1999: 26 –> 17.
toanPerformance of climb rate for different western fighters:
A. Eurofighter Typhoon
* Clean configuration, from brake-off to 40,000 fts: 60 to 70 seconds.
* QRA configuration (six to eight AAMs + two 1,000L tanks), from brake-off to 40,000 fts: 90 seconds.
B. Rafale M F1
* QRA configuration (four AAMs + one 1,250L tanks), from brake-off to 40,000 fts: Within 2 mins.
C. F-16C Block50
* Clean configuration, from brake-off to 40,000 fts: Around 2 mins.
D. F-15E (F100-PW229)
* Clean configuration, from brake-off to 30,000 fts: 1 min 20 secs.
E. JAS-39C Gripen
* Clean (?) configuration, from brake-off to 31,800 fts: 1 min 40 secs.
* Clean (?) configuration, from brake-off to 45,900 fts: 3 mins.
toanhttp://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091115/NATIONAL/711149818/1010
UAE closely studying details of French jet
Mahmoud Habboush
Last Updated: November 14. 2009 11:40PM UAE / November 14. 2009 7:40PM GMT
DUBAI // UAE Air Force officials are patiently hammering out the details of a deal to replace their 63 ageing Mirage 2000-9 fighters with the top-line Dassault Rafale multi-role aircraft, experts said yesterday, but the implications for the nation’s security could be huge.
Retired Gen Khalid al Buainnain, the former chief of the UAE Armed Forces, said the deal could be in place by early 2010, with the first aircraft arriving in 2013.
The deal is expected to be worth between €6 billion (Dh32.2bn) and €10bn.
A key requirement for the aircraft is “interoperability” or the capacity to work with other systems and weapons platforms such as the US-made F-16 Block 60; the UAE ordered 80 F-16s in 2004. Experts say inter-operability is a technical requirement that most defence contractors can handle.
Gen al Buainnain called the deal “very complex”.
“It … is connected to a lot of operational and technical details, therefore there is no rushing for signing a deal because the capability of the Mirage 2000 and the F-16 is very strong,” Gen al Buainnain said.
Riad Kahwaji, the chief executive of INEGMA, said that if the French jet met all the standards the UAE laid out for it, it could serve the UAE Air Force for the next 20 years.
“This is a new, almost fifth-generation fighter, and that’s exactly what the UAE is asking for. It’ll help them cover their needs for the next 20 years and be a good backing for the F-16.”
“US technology [for example] falls under certain rules for exports; France doesn’t have that,” said Dr Theodore Karasik, director of research and development at Inegma.
Another issue that makes European suppliers more attractive than the US is parliamentary restrictions.
“The UAE understands how the French operate and that they can sell them whatever system they want without having to go through the Congress or the lobbying groups” as in the US, Dr Karasik said.
Gen al Buainnain, who has direct knowledge of the negotiations, said France would be responsible for taking the 63 outdated Mirage fighters off the UAE’s hands.
That could be difficult, Mr Kahwaji said. “The French government needs to find a solution for the Mirage 2000 in order for the UAE to be able to purchase the Rafale,” he said, adding that Oman or Eastern European nations could be potential buyers.
“There are a number of countries that could be looking for a good fighter like the Mirage,” he said.
Gen al Buainnain said he did not expect the issue to be a sticking point.
“One of the conclusions that the French government reached was that the Mirage 2000 are advanced enough that the French air force wants to keep them; that’s one of their best available options.”
toanSo how come the F-35 will have a HMD?
F-35 must have a HMD, because it won’t equip HUD.
toanIn the recent Flight article it says “a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012”.
I assume this would then be F4? Is that correct?
A: Actually Rafale F3-O4T ~ the code name of France for its Batch 4 Rafales.
The most important 2012 new sensor will presumably be the AESA; but what will happen to the other sensors? Any details on those?
A:
1. RBE-2 AESA.
* 30 ~ 50% improvement for detective / tracking range.
* Horizontal scanning angle: +/-60 degrees –> +/-70 degrees.
* 4 times improvement for scanning volume.
* Average output: 10 kWs.
* Massive improvement for calculation.
* SAR mode with sub-metric resolution.
* MTBF for Antenna: > 1000 hrs.
* Potential for future upgrading.
2. FSO-IT or FSO-NG (post-2015).
* FSO-IT: New generation of TV module with cancellation of IR module.
* FSO-NG: FSO-IT + next generation of IR module and possibly the techonology of laser radar.
3. DDM-NG.
A “form, fit, and function” replacement for the original DDM, and is based on a staring array sensor with a long range, a very large field of view and with sufficiently high angular accuracy to be compatible with DIRCM systems. Advanced algorithms will ensure a very low false alarm rate.
4. Damocles XF.
5. Integration of Meteor BVRAAM.
toanhttp://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=31530
Our take-off mass was 16.1t (10.8t basic and 5.3t fuel) carrying one supersonic fuel tank centreline.
Rafale B with a full 1,250 L fuel tank = 16.1 tonnes.
Fuel = 4,340 kg (internal fuel of Rafale B) + 1,250 L*0.8 = around 5.3 tonnes.
Rafale B with an empty 1,250 L fuel tank, two pilots, and possibly 125 30 mm shells –> 10.8 tonnes.
I think it should be reasonable that the empty weight of Rafale B today is around 10.3 t, or maybe a little more, according to the statement of the UK test pilot.
toanDATE:09/11/09
SOURCE:Flight International
FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale – Rampant Rafale
By Peter Collins
The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional load, above its own empty weight, into combat.
Our take-off mass was 16.1t (10.8t basic and 5.3t fuel) carrying one supersonic fuel tank centreline. Take-off was in full afterburner from the brakes and with a rotate of 125kt that came about 9s after brake release. Gear was retracted immediately after lift-off and afterburner cancelled at 250kt.
Q: Is 10.3 tonnes the empty weight of Rafale B or Rafale C??
In air-to-ground DFCS Stores Position 1 (ST1) at 350kt, mild buffet was encountered at +4.5g with 4t of fuel. In full dry power, a wind-up turn showed that the aircraft could maintain 350kt at +5.0g with just 10° of nose-down pitch.
Later in the sortie at the lower fuel weight of 2t and 500kt, with the DFCS Stores Position set to air-to-air, the aircraft was pulled rapidly and effortlessly through to +9g and could be held there over a significant speed range.
A final level acceleration from 200-500kt in full afterburner at 5,000ft and 1.8t fuel weight can only be described as brutal, with the aircraft increasing speed at about 30kt/s…..
A: The same class of level acceleration as the one declared by RAF pilots for their own EF-2000 Typhoon.
The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly.
The final handling manoeuvre was to complete a low-speed loop in full afterburner starting from 170kt and maintaining 16° AoA. The loop was simple to fly and control and I used just over 2,000ft vertically to complete it: don’t try that in a Panavia Tornado.
A:
The low-speed loop performance of EF-2000 in 1998:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPOOldlZymw
We shut down after a sortie of 1h 25min with 470kg of fuel.
A: A good reference for Rafale’s combat flight endurance with clean configuration.
toanI would like to figure out what would be the supercruising speed of the Mirage IV with two 3 5,000-pound-thrust-class F119 PW-100 on it?
2 Snecma Atar 9 K 2 x 6 600 kgp
2 F119 PW-100 <> x 15.875 kgp
Empty weight: 14 000 kg
Designed for sustained M 2.0.
Can we have another one please?
a:
The data you offered is the maximal static thrust on the ground for F119 and Atar 9K. We simplely have no idea of the thrust performance for F119 and Atar 9K at the speed of 1.5 to 2.0 mach+ in high altitude.
Atar 9K is a turbojet, which make it have mediocre thrust performance at the subsonic and transonic range compared with a turbofan. However, once the fighter’s speed is more than Mach 1.5 and approaching to the Mach 2.0, the thrust performance of a turbojet will become better and better…..
toanHence the reason why the MOD is going after UCAVs and UAVs in a serious way. Those guys arent completely daft you know!
A:
1. The BAE’s UAV and UCAV projects are also the candidates for cancellation next year because of the financial crisis.
2. The costs for developing and procuring a productional mordern UCAV (and the controlling system / datalink for it) are no less than the costs for developing and procuring a manned fighter like EF-2000 or F-35, and it seems that the UK government won’t make the formal deal for developing and buying such equipment(s) in the foreseeable future.
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