toanTwo points
a. If according to RAF chief, clouds influenced the outcome in favor of the raptor, this clearly indicates that an IR device for BVR sensing was used by the other part. Or else clouds would have blocked both opponents. Right?
b. In the recent Defendory exhibition that was held in Athens, last month, a Eurofighter Consortioum spokesman, stated that even if CEASAR will not be incorporated, the PIRATE is able to search and track stealth targets. Up to 70nm away.
c. In a question of http://www.defencenet.gr, referring to the ability of the EF-2000 Typhoon to counter the stealth technology and future potential opponent F-35, the answer we got was that thanks to the passive search and track IR system PIRATE, the advantage of the low H/M return, cease to exist!
A:
a. Not necessarily, EF-2000 is a much smaller fighter than F-22A, which should make it more difficult to be viewed by eyes in the WVR dogfight. However, in the cloudy weather, this advantage for EF-2000 may also be diminished.
b. and c.
Such advertisements that have also been declared by Russian, Frenchman, and even the American of Boeing who wish to sell more F/A-18E before.
toanAs was pointed out however this was WVR so stealth doesn’t matter.
Actually, the main advantages (range, speed, energy…..) of ASRAAM over AIM-9M today is in the condition of BVR range. If the WVR exercise begins within the effective range of AIM-9M (No matter it is because of the F-22A’s stealthy capability, or because that the rule of engagement is to let the two fighters begin their dogfight in that range), then the advantages of ASRAAM will also be minimum.
toanhttp://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/sprucemoose/images/15973/11-sqn-typhoon.jpg
Typhoon in Nellis. Looks like it’s got Pirate to me
Yes, but we can’t make sure:
1. The Typhoon fighter(s) with PIRATE(s) has/have fought with F-22A.
2. Even if it/them has/have had some exercises with Raptor, it/they may not be allowed to use its/theirs PIRATE(s) to against F-22A.
toanThe “claim” tells us nothing new. It didn’t say the F-22 lost, it said it won- in close combat- against a Typhoon that has HMCS, AIM-132, and Pirate, while the F-22 doesn’t even have AIM-9X or a HMCS. So what do these claims REALLY tell us? That in the best situation a Typhoon could hope for (IE the F-22’s stealth not being a factor because it was WVR) it still lost.
A:
1. Typhoon has not equipped HMD yet, and it hadn’t equipped PIRATE formally until the Tranche I, Block5 fighter entered service in 2007. It is very possibile that Typhoon still hasn’t use PIRATE to try to against Raptor up to now.
2. ASRAAM is predominant over AIM-9M in speed (3.5 Mach vs 2.5 Mach), effective range (25 km vs 8 km), G-loading (50G vs 35G) and seeker’s view angle (+/-90 degrees vs +/-30 degrees). However, the stealthy capability of F-22A may be good enough to eliminate this advantages ~ As you said, if F-22A can approach its target close enough (such as 5 NM / 9 km) without being found, then the advantages of ASRAAM mentioned above may be useless until it gets the assistance from PIRATE and HMD.
toanBut the heart of PIRATE/IRST is a Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector (QWIP) and not a simple IRST. PIRATE/IRST has a detections range for a subsonic targets of 50nm. A Raptor with 1.7Mach generate a shock cone with a stagnation temperature of 188 deg. F that make it to a very hot target.;)
As I mentioned above: It is true that modern fighter IRST systems like Pirate and FSO can detect several dozens of target at the range of 50 to 70~80 nm if the weather is ideal enough. But in this kind of condition, the pilot can only see several dozens of light spots on his screen. He can’t tell which light spot(s) is/are Raptor(s), not to mention measuring its speed, range, and precise flight path, which are important for finding the proper time to fire.
If you want to use modern fighter IRST systems to do the works of identification (not just light spot, but target’s image), range measuring, and so on alone without the help from radar, then:
1. Even in the ideal weather, its effective range is within 30~55 km.
2. It can only handle one target in one time ~ If there are several dozens of possible light spots needed to be image identified and range measured, the modern fighter IRST systems today can only identify / measuring them one by one within a very limited effective range mentioned above, which shall be very time consuming, and still let Raptor(s) have enough time, space, and chance to do the job of “first find, fist lock, first shoot” without being identified and locked.
toanhttp://www.4tforum.gr/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9939&start=2430&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p1333260
Κατ’ αρχή σε κλειστές αερομαχίες τα τάιφουν ΠΑΝΤΑ υπερίσχυσαν των φ-15/16 (μάλιστα μια φορά 1 τάιφουν νίκησε ζεύγος από φ-15/16, ποτέ δεν θυμάται είπε περίπτωση και σε άλλες ασκήσεις φ-15/16 να έχει καταρρίψει τάιφουν) ενώ από τα ράπτορ έχασαν με μικρή διαφορά (narrow win), κυρίως όταν είχε σύννεφα δεν μπορούσαν να τα εντοπίσουν εγκαίρως λόγω στελθ, ικανότητα που όμως χάνεται εάν το α/φος φέρει εξωτερικο οπλισμό ή έστω και ένα ατρακτίδιο ή δεξαμενή, συνεπώς το ραπτορ πλεονεκτεί καθαρά μόνο εάν φέρει αποκλειστικά τον περιορισμένο εσωτερικό του οπλισμό και σε μάχες πέρα από τον ορίζοντα διότι ανιχνεύεται δύσκολα από τα ραντάρ α/φων και (ενεργών) πυραύλων (πέραν του ότι είναι πανάκριβο για αγορά, δύσκολο, απαιτητικό και ακριβό και στη συντήρηση, μόνο 120 θα πάρει τελικά η usaf ενώ προγραμμάτιζαν… 500 και επί του παρόντος δεν υπάρχουν σκέψεις για εξαγωγή ούτε καν στο ισραήλ, επίσης το θέλει και η ιαπωνία). Το ράπτορ συνολικά κρίνεται καλύτερο από το τάιφουν αλλά υστερεί σε συντελεστή κόστους/αποτελεσματικότητας.
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt
According to the translations from the website mentioned above. The Greece post said that F-22A had only gotten a “Narrow Win” over Typhoon in “Closed air combat”, not in the condition of BVR combat.
And personally, I don’t think this kind of result is suprising, especially when you consider the difference of WVR weapons that F-22A (AIM-9M) and EF-2K (AIM-132) use nowadays……
toan1. French airforce acquires 42 Rafale B/C from 2003 to 2008, which is equal to acquiring 7 fighters per year in the past six years.
2. In 2009, French airforce will get 12 more Rafale B/C, while French navy will get 2 more Rafale M.
3. French airforce and navy have already got 35 Rafale B/C and 23 Rafale M in early 2008 ~ It seems they will get 65 to 72 Rafale in total before the end of 2008.
toanI know. But i really wonder why we did not order this missile sooner. 2018 !!! Is it such a costly weapon ?
A:
1. It is said that the estimated unit cost of Meteor had already reached one million USD per missile at the beginning of 21th century ~ It shall be much expensive when European countries really buy it in the period of post-2015 because of the inflation.
2. Although Meteor BVRAAM has much better effective range / NEZ performance comparing with AIM-120C and MICA, it is more and more questionable if its capability is useful in the BVR combat of post-2015 ~ 2020, especially when the possible future opponents’ RCS will likely to be lower and lower, and rules for air combat engagement becomes more and more strict………….
toanThere’s still no order for the Meteor, which is seen as critical for the export markets, because Typhoon and Gripen may certainly get it before the Rafale. However, it should only be for 2018 ! :mad::mad::mad: What is wrong with this missile ???
A:
The document that you gave has offered the answer:
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/pdf/budget/plf2009/a1202-tV.pdf
Page 32:
Un premier tir dans le standard de production est prévu début 2009
pour une qualification fin 2011 et une livraison du premier missile de série fin
2012 pour le Royaume-Uni.
À la signature du contrat en janvier 2003, seul le Royaume-Uni s’était en
effet engagé dans la production des missiles. En 2007, l’Espagne a fait connaître
son intention de commander un lot de missiles sans pour autant en préciser le
nombre. La France, de son côté, n’a pas encore notifié de commande. À l’origine,
la quantité envisagée était de 300 missiles, avec des premières livraisons en
2015/2016, mais en raison des contraintes budgétaires, la cible visée par la
prochaine LPM devrait se limiter à 200 missiles, à livrer à partir de 2018.
Translation:
A first shooting in the standard of production is envisaged at the beginning of 2009 for a qualification at the end of 2011 and one delivery of the first missile of series at the end of 2012 for the United Kingdom.
With the signature of the contract in January 2003, only the United Kingdom was in effect committed in the production of the missiles. In 2007, Spain made known its intention to order a batch of missiles without to specify it number. France, on its side, did not notify yet of order. At the origin, the quantity considered was of 300 missiles, with first deliveries in 2015/2016, but because of the budget constraints, the target aimed by next LPM should be limited to 200 missiles, to deliver as from 2018.
toanFrench Rafale should have had some BFM engagements and DACT exercises with the Eurofighters from RAF, ItAF, and GAF since 2006. However, the results of these BFM / DACT are never reported publically.
I think these endless and meaningless argues over the topic of “Rafale versus Eurofighter, who is the better one?? ” should be paused, until somebody could offer the information for the precise results of BFM engagements and DACT exercises mentioned above one day.
toanThere was a report in a greek forum, that during DACT exercises between RAF and USAF, the Eurofighters won every battle with F-15/F-16s and against the F-22s, the raptors only got a “Narrow Win“.?
A: What DACT exercises in which year??
According to the same officer the score of the eurofighters could even become better against the raptors, if the weather was better (less clouds) as the formers were using the PIRATE/IRST to spot the F-22s……
A:
The IRST today is still more a complement for radar (helping radar to cue and identify the target that radar has found and picked out) than a completely independent sensor to search, track, identify, range, and lock the target by itself in the long range. A modern IRST like Pirate can detect 200 targets at the same time. However, in this kind of situation, the pilot can only see 200 light spots on its screen that is impossible to tell which target(s) /light spot(s) is / are the real bad guy(s), not to mention gathering the necessary information to shoot it / them down.
If the pilot wants to use IRST to do the jobs of tracking, identifying, and ranging, then it can only handle a single target at one time within a very limited effective range (around 30 ~ 55 km), which is still not good enough when considering that the combination of Raptor + AIM-120C6/C7/D has the BVR capability to attack more than six targets at the range of 80 to 100 km+ away……
And even if the pilot of EF-2000 identifies and locks F-22A successfully with the help of Pirate IRST, then what kind(s) of weapon(s) shall Typhoon be able to use to shoot Raptors down?? The active seekers of BVRAAMs like AIM-120 or Meteor are much less powerful than modern fighters’ radars today, which are highly unlikely to be able to lock Raptor successfully. Modern WVRAAMs with IIR seekers like ASRAAM or IRIS-T may have more chance, but their effective range is much less than AIM-120C6/C7/D, especially when the later is fired from the F-22A with high speed (1.5-1.8 M) supercruising…..
toan1. The SFC data you use is the performace of EJ-200 in the static ground test ~ It may change a lot when the fighter flys into the sky with the different speed and altitude.
2. The engine thrust (AB / Max. mil: 90 / 60 KNs) you use is also the performance of EJ-200 at static ground test ~ It will also be varied a lot at different speed and height.
toanThe greatest global financial tsunami since 1929 may offer an excellent-than-ever chance for SAAB to export GRIPEN, since many foreign airforces shall have to take new fighter’s price and operational cost into consideration at first right now.
Well done, Wall Street and Little Bush government…….:D
toanAFM, 2008/11, Page 34 – 39:
“French Rafale on the Teddy” ~ The special report of Rafale M F2’s performance during the JTFEX exercise, 2008.
1. In Page 37, a photo shows a Rafale M of 12F flew with an F/A-18F from the Blacklions Squadron, the first frontline squadron of Superhornet Block II.
2. Rafale M F2 met with F/A-18E/F in several 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 2 AA missions during the exercise. However, both sides didn’t show their real and complete fighting capability to each other ~ US pilots didn’t show the true capability of JHMCS + AIM-9X to French pilots, while 12F was also shy about showing the real capabilities of RBE2 radar, Spectra EWS, and FSO optronic systems.
3. A USN pilot’s (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 “Tomcatters”) comments for Rafale M:
“A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky.”
“The French pilots seem to be happy to its flight performance and its modern cockpit design”.
When asked if he would like to swap his Super hornet to a Rafale –> “No, I love my Super Bug way too much….”
4. A French pilot’s (pilot of 12F) comments for F/A-18E:
“A great bombing aircraft, but not a fighter for dogfighting.”
“Its acceleration capability in the high angle of incidence is not good.”
“Rafale is definitely the more nimble one.”
“However, F/A-18E has already equipped the JHMCS + AIM-9X, a combination of decisive edge in close-range encounters ~ Although the tactics to counter it have existed now.”
toanCan ask what “Rover capability” is?
I think its exceptional what rafale has right now hopefully it will grab some export sales soon. About the ASMP, when will the enhanced ASMP missile be integrated?
1. ROVER Capability: The capability of datalink to download the image from Damocles pod to the ground force ~ A very useful skill for making sure the ground target that the fighter should attack.
The combination of Eurofighter Tranch1 Block5 + Lightening III pod has already had such capability right now. As for Rafale, it seems that it won’t get such capability formally until 2009 or 2010.
2. The first squadron of FAF’s Rafale for the mission of tactical nuclear attack shall formally take over this duty at the time of 2010.
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