toanFlightGlobal is also reporting the same..
Damn, with this rejection, one fun series of threads on Typhoon vs Rafale fanboys will end..:D
Well, we can always have other fun series of threads for those fanboys, such as “Typhoon or Rafale, who is the most miserable exporting fighter in 20XX??”, “The King of Losers ~ The ultimate competition between Rafale and Typhoon”, “Rafale v.s Typhoon, The Record of Losers’ War”, and so on:highly_amused:
toanProgram aqcuisition, anw we have no clue about the prices quoted for F18 and RAfale, just one press article.
http://www.deagel.com/news/FMS-Brazil-Seeks-36-FA-18EF-Super-Hornets_n000006453.aspx
Released on Thursday, August 6, 2009
Brazil � F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft
WASHINGTON, August 6, 2009 � Today the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notifiedCongress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Brazil of 28 F/A-18E Super HornetAircraft, eight F/A-18F Super Hornet Aircraft, 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines, a host of spare partsand munitions at an estimated value of $7.0 billion.
The Government of Brazil has requested proposals from several foreign suppliers, including theUnited States, to provide the next generation fighter for the Brazilian Air Force. In this “FX-2″competition, the Government of Brazil has yet to select the United States Navy-Boeing proposal. This notification is being made in advance of receipt of a letter of request so that, in the event thatthe US Navy-Boeing proposal is selected, the United States might move as quickly as possible toimplement the sale. If the Government of Brazil selects the U.S. Navy-Boeing proposal, theGovernment of Brazil will request a possible sale of 28 F/A-18E Super Hornet Aircraft, eightF/A-18F Super Hornet Aircraft, 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines, four F414-GE-400 spareengines, 36 AN/APG-79 Radar Systems, 36 M61A2 20mm Gun Systems, 36 AN/ALR-67(V)three Radar Warning Receivers, 144 LAU-127 Launchers, 44 Joint Helmet Mounted CueingSystems (JHMCS), 28 AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM),28 AIM-9M SIDEWINDER Missiles, 60 GBU-31/32 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), 36AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW), 10 AGM-88B HARM Missiles, and 36 AN/ASQ-228 (V2) Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared (ATFLIR) Pods. Also included are 36AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Countermeasures. 40 AN/ALE-47 Electronic WarfareCountermeasures Systems, 112 AN/ALE-50 Towed Decoys, Joint Mission Planning System,support equipment, spare and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, ferry andtanker support, flight test, software support, publications and technical documents, U.S.Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other relatedelements of logistics and program support.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gsdz5488Hv9smp-GWpqqVEx7OCEg?hl=en
Brazil denies jet deal done after reported Rafale price cut
(AFP) – Feb 4, 2010
BRASILIA — Brazil’s government denied Thursday it had made a final decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France after a news report said the planes’ maker, Dassault, had lopped two billion dollars off their price.
President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva “still has not decided on the selection process,” the state news agency Agencia Brasil said, adding that he was waiting on an official recommendation from the defense ministry that also had to go to a national defense committee.
Defense Minister Nelson Jobim told reporters: “The purchase has not been defined. The procedure is underway in the defense ministry. The report is unfounded.”
Brazil’s air force also has not received any official notification that a choice had been made between the Rafale and its two rivals in the tender, the Gripen NG from Sweden’s Saab and the F/A-18 Super Hornet from US group Boeing, the agency said.
They were reacting to a report in the leading daily Folha de S. Paulo which said Lula and Defense Minister Nelson Jobim had signed off on the Rafales after Dassault’s hefty price cut.
It said the total Rafale deal was worth 10.2 billion dollars, comprising 6.2 billion dollars for the fighters themselves — down from a previous 8.2 billion — and four billion for maintenance over the next three decades.
The discount still made the Rafale more expensive than its rivals, it said, putting the Boeing package at 7.6 billion dollars (including 5.7 billion dollars for the F/A-18s themselves)and the Saab offer at 6.0 billion (with the Gripen planes accounting for 4.5 billion dollars).
toanRafale: 10.0 –> 8.0 billion USD for 36 fighters, 16,500 USD operating cost per flight hour.
F/A-18E/F: 7.5 billion USD for 36 fighters, 11,000 USD operating cost per flight hour.
Gripen NG: 6.0 –> 4.5 billion USD for 36 fighters, 5,000 to 7,000 USD operating cost per flight hour.
I think Gripen NG is the most reasonable choice for Brazil with economic crisis and poverty problem in the foreseeable future, and the only thing that I’m a little surprised is that Dilma Rousseff can make this decision so determined and quickly without any further delay to 2015.
toanThe US has already achieved much greater win over the Europe and Asia.
Brazil airforce has kept adopting pure American fighters (P-36/P-40 –> P-47 –> F-80C/TF-33A –> F-5E) as its main A2A power since it was firstly founded in 1940s, and what loss it has gotten because of this continuous decision ?
And comparing with the most fighters and attackers that BAF had before, Gripen NG is not so American ~ It can choose non-American weapons and even non-American engine if necessary.
toanOnly 33 AESAs even in 2016?
At that pace they will be lucky if the radar isn’t obsolete before half the fleet has it.
1. If Dassault gets one or more exporting deal(s) at that time, then there shall be a few more dozens of exporting Rafale with AESA radar at the time of 2019~2020.
2. Even if Dassault fails to get any export deal at that time, French government will have to compensate Dassault, and French AF and Navy shall have no less than 61 Rafale B/C/M with AESA radar at the time of 2019.
3. It is said that France prepares to retrofit the Rafale F3 today with AESA radar after 2020.
4. Only 33 AESAs even in 2016? Well, tell me how many AESAs shall the productional Eurofighter and Gripen get at that time, and how many Russian fighters with AESA radars will enter service formally at that time……
toanRecent poer unit cost updates of french Rafales (note : unit cost depends on number) :
Projet de loi de finances pour 2014 : Défense : équipement des forces et excellence technologique des industries de défense
Rafale C : 68.8 Meuros
Rafale B ! 74 Meuros
Rafale M : 79 Meurosincluding 19.6% VAT. (at least, usually prices quoted by assmbly do)
According to the website mentioned above:
1. Ordered Rafales: 180（Rafale B x 63, Rafale C x 69, Rafale M x 48）.
2. Delivered Rafales (2013): 126（Rafale B x 42, Rafale C x 45, Rafale M x 39）.
3. In-serviced Rafales (2013): 121（Rafale B x 42, Rafale C x 44, Rafale M x 35）.
4. Delivering plan in the next 3 years: 26（Rafale B x 18, Rafale C x 1, Rafale M x 7）.
* 2014: Rafale B x 8, Rafale C x 1, Rafale M x 2.
* 2015: Rafale B x 7, Rafale C x 0, Rafale M x 4.
* 2016: Rafale B x 3, Rafale C x 0, Rafale M x 1.
5. Delivered Rafales (2016): 152（Rafale B x 6, Rafale C x 46, Rafale M x 46）.
6. In-serviced Rafale (2016): No more than 147（Rafale B x 60, Rafale C x 45, Rafale M x 42）, and 33（Rafale B x 22, Rafale C x 3, Rafale M x 8）of them shall equip RBE-2 AESA radars.
toanIn the worst case scenario, the RAF and RN will have no more than 160 manned fighters after 2020.
Post-2018: Retiring Tornado GR4 and keeping Tranche I Typhoon in service for a while until the IOC or FOC of F-35B become the truth.
Post-2020~2030: no more than 107 Tranche II/III Typhoons + 48 F-35B.
Post-2030: Gradually retiring Tranche II/III Typhoons and replacing them with a few dozens of F-35 or F/A-XX + UCAVs.
toan1. The empty weight of Rafale will increase if it adopts the heavier 9t new engines, so it is not accurate to use Rafale’s combat weight today and the engines’ thrust in the future for calculating the future Rafale’s thrust-to-weight ratio with 18t thrust.
2. The future Rafale with 18t thrust will not be that unprecedented in thrust-to-weight ratio ~ The F-15E today can achieve the similar thrust-to-weight ratio performance without CFTs. And the Raptor, if its “Real” maximal thrust is just like some Raptor pilots’ declaration (38,000 ~ 39,000Ib * 2), then its “Real” thrust-to-weight ratio performance would be the same.
3. It is not just Rafale to have the potential to increase 20% or more thrust in the near future ~ PAK-FA, EF-2000, and Gripen NG etc. also have the similar choices and potential if their customers require thrust increasing one day.
toanWell, I don’t think the integration is faster than I once expected…….:rolleyes:
Neither the Storm Shadow nor the AESA radar is yet under contract. There have been media reports that Saudi Arabian money is funding these integrations. Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter capability manager, told AIN here Monday that these were being funded by industry. However, the four European partner nations for Eurofighter have agreed the scope of “evolution packages” (EPs) that add such capability. The EP2 package was recently signed, for delivery by the end of 2015. It contains various avionics and other upgrades, including modifications to the jet’s current Captor-M radar to allow firing of the MBDA Meteor BVRAAM.
Hilditch said that the program “was trying to make intelligent choices about weapons integration–the choices and sequence.” The Storm Shadow integration will likely form part of the Phase 2B Enhancement Package (P2E-B) for delivery by 2017. The equivalent German weapon–the KEPD 350 Taurus–will also soon fly on a test aircraft (IPA7 in Germany) “because the aerodynamics read across to the Storm Shadow clearance.”
toanI think that IAF can choose EL/M-2052 if it really want an AESA radar for its own MIRAGEs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/M-2052
However, I guess that IAF doesn’t think it is cost-effective for a MLU fighter with 15 – 20 years service life to equip an AESA radar…….
toanNo new weapon integration for this Evolution Package ?:confused:
toanhttp://www.forceindia.net/AeroIndia2013_TejasComesofAge.aspx
Future of LCA Tejas program?
* Full IOC: 2013.
* Full FOC: 2015.
* Completion of Deliveries Tejas Mk-1: 2020.
* Tejas Mk-2 First Flight: 2017.
* Completion of Flight Test Programme for Tejas Mk-2: 2020.
* Entry into Service Tejas Mk-2: 2024.
* Completion of Deliveries Tejas Mk-2: 2030.
toan^
Is that number of radars delivered in that period or total fighters operational with AESA?
In either case, why the sudden drop in 2016? (Switching to GaN perhaps?)
1. If Rafale can finally secure the exporting deal(s) from IAF / BrAF / UAEAF as Dassault’s plan, then French government will introduce only 26 Rafale fighters for French airforce and navy in the next six years:
2014: 11 fighters.
2015: 11 fighters.
2016: 4 fighters.
2017 ~ 2019: 0 fighters.
2. In addition, French government will start F3R upgrading for the current servicing Rafale F3 fighters at the time of 2018. However, I am not sure if RBE-2 AESA radar will be included in this upgrading right now. If it is included in, then France shall have more than 33 “AESA Rafales” after 2018.
3. I think the practical GaN AESA radar technology for Rafale shall not be ready before 2025.
toanhttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News/page322
The number of Rafale with AESA radar for French airforce and navy in the near future:
2013: 7 fighters (6 Tranche 4 + C137).
2014: 18 fighters.
2015: 29 fighters.
2016 ~ 2019: 33 fighters.
toanSwedish-Swiss Fighter Jet Deal Moves Closer
(Source: Radio Sweden; published Aug. 27, 2013)
The Swiss may buy 22 of the next generation of JAS Gripen fighter jets.
An important Swiss parliamentary committee has voted in favour of the country’s planned purchase of Swedish Super-Jas Gripen fighter planes.
The national security committee voted 14 – 9 in favour of the deal. They had previously postponed making a decision, following financial questions over the deal.
Switzerland is hoping to buy 22 of the jets, worth SEK 23 billion, the final decision will be made in the Swiss parliament next month, followed by a referendum by the Swiss population.
Security Committee In Swiss Parliament Votes “Yes” to Gripen E Procurement
(Source: Saab AB; issued Aug. 27, 2013)
Earlier today, the security committee of the National Council (Nationalrat) in the Swiss Parliament debated and voted “yes” to the procurement of Gripen E.
The committee reached a majority “yes” vote – 14 in favour and 9 against – and it is anticipated that the procurement will progress to the plenum of the Nationalrat for votation in the September session.
“We are naturally very pleased by the decision of the security committee of the Nationalrat. This is a very positive endorsement of the Gripen programme.
“Whilst we continue to respect and follow the political process, we also continue to assemble the pre-production Gripen E. Also, our Swiss industrial participation programme aiming at creating business between the suppliers to Saab and Swiss companies is progressing. It has today seen 456 contracts signed between our suppliers and 117 Swiss companies valued at 315 MCHF,” says Lennart Sindahl, Senior Executive Vice President and Head of Saab’s Aeronautics business area.
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