Tempest414A lot of good summers knocking around in G-DAKS but my two favourite paint jobs were the SEAC and aero Argentina with the blue and white rudder for Poirot
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Tempest414Just going trough my Shots I have of her when she was painted as KG374 did anyone notice whilst at Fairford in 1985 it had the serial KG874 ?? What was the purpose of this
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:):):)
Just some off the top of my head but for a full list you need to talk to Ray Thomas at North Weald as he worked for Mike from the start until 2008
Sword of Honour 2001
Charlotte Gray 2001
Band of Brothers 2000
Tenko 1981/84
Shining Through 1992
Tempest414I’m fairly sure it didn’t fly out, and with the ground effect it is now suffering from, fairly sure it wont fly out of here either!
Once again there was two of them the white one flew out the silver one was cut up after suffering damage in a storm after our 1 eyed Scottish friend left the control locks out how many more times?
Tempest414With the Sea-Kings going in 2016 and the puma’s only have ten years to go the UK needs to start looking for is a new Medium lift helicopter however we do have at leased 5 years to watch how the NH-90 gets on in service or to sort out the Agusta 149 what ever type we will need a new Medium lift helicopter
Tempest414one of my favourite shots
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Tempest414Probably what the AF could have done with now would have been 30+ A-29s cheap to operate and fast to turn around moving on to a none US lead air force then Mig-35 and JF-17 combo backed up by Yak-130 and a good number of Mil 17’s say 40+ to move troops and equipment as need around the country main battle tanks are fine but not needed right now
Tempest414I thought the Boxcar was flown out and had trouble leaving ground effect !!!!
There were two of them the white one did indeed fly out with some trouble the silver one was cut up after a certain one eyed Scottish chap got his hands on it and it was left without control locks in a big storm and badly damaged
Tempest414Who walked away from the F-1M deal Argentina or Spain? as I feel F-1M would still be a good stop gap for 10-15 years and if they got the F-1M sim a good way of moving in to a modern training program i.e. pilots not using so many hours on the air-frame for the same out come
Tempest414Dissimilar training with F16MLU ? I don’t see Pakistan with any interest in the Su30
I did not think the PAF were allowed by the US to use F-16’s in training with China and I think the SU-30 is of the most interest to the PAF
Tempest414MICA is a HOBS missile, but the MF2000 does not include a helmet mounted site. (Second time I have made this point know)
So still no data link on the MF2000 (Third time I have made this point)
Your actually not even sure it can use any recce pods, so what is your point here?
Point taken on the Damocles pod. I stand corrected.
So as for the data link question please see bottom right hand corner plus see link it would seem MF-2000 has Data Link . As for the helmet mounted site the Moroccan F-1’s do not have this but the cockpit is compatible with the top sight system as used in M2K-5 and MIG 29 K for this capability
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farmorocco.wordpress.com/…/moroccan-mf-2000s-upgrade-specificatio.
Tempest414I’m not going to get into a play on words, you said the MF2000
Your words “The MF -2000 upgrade opens up the Rafale toy box to the F-1 and gives it a mix of MK2 -9 and Rafale capability”
$21 million is the price the PAF paid (and this discussion is in relation to their purchase so I will stick with that figure).
Also, you missed my point that their is no data link or HMS in the MF2000 upgrade. These are pretty key features of why countries go for MLU.
Yes, as you rightfully say MF2000 makes the F-1 into a BVR platform, but the MLU makes a F-16A into much much more then that.
Rosetta technology pRovides data link integRation
capabilities foR the following Message foRMats
and inteRfaces:
Low level interfaces
> MIL-STD-1553
> ARINC-429, 561, etc.
> RS-422
> Ethernet (TCP/IP and UDP/IP) server and client interfaces
> Sync serial
> ASync serial
> AEGIS/CVN NTDS parallel and serial
> ICI PCMCIA improved modem card
> ICI USB modem
> Aeronix/Symetrics UROC modem
Protocols supported
> ARINC-429
> MIL-STD 188-184
> MIL-STD 3011A (STADILJ)
> MIL-STD 3011C
> Slowlink (Rosetta broadcast)
Forwarding
> MIL-STD-6020
> USAF TACP Gateway forwarding rules
> Finland country-wide infrastructure rules
> Swedish air to ground rules
Equipment interfaces
> PRC-150
> PRC-117F/G
> PRC-152
> PRC-148
> JTRS enhanced MBITR
> MIDS LVT 1 Platorm A, B and N
> MIDS LVT 2 Platform J
> Class 2 JTIDS
> Class 2M JTIDS (E2C)
> FDL
> URC-138 (SHAR)
> SADL RT-1720
Mapping applications
> MAP-X®
> FalconView®
> Maria
> Google Earth™ Mapping Service
Certifications
> Link 11 to Link 16
> Link 16 C2
Supported sensors/links
> CEC
> TIBS
> MIL-STD 6016 B
> MIL-STD 6016 C
> Link 11
> VMF Reissue 2
> VMF Version 3
> VMF Version 5
> VMF Version 6 and 6+
> MIL-STD 6017
Command and Control systems
> TACP Gateway
> TBMCS
> ADOCS/JADOCS
> AFATDS – (includes Excalibur)
> FBCB2
Aircraft interoperable with
> A-10C SADL and VMF
> F-16 IDM
> F-16 Link 16
> F-15E Link 16
> AWACS/JSTARS Link 16
> Mirage F1 IDM
> Mirage 2000 IDM
> Tornado IDM
> B-52 VMF
SPECiFiCATionS SubjECT To ChAngE wiThouT noTiCE.
> MIL-STD 6017A
> STANAG 5522 (Link 22)
> IDM-AFAPD
> GBDL
> OTH-GOLD
> USMTF
> OMNITRAKS, SABRE
> AEGIS interface; N SERIES
> SLQ-32 EW system
> Situational Awareness Data Link (SADL)
> AC-130U Link 16
> AV-8 MTS
> F/A-18 C, D, E, F VMF
> F/A-18 SuperHornet Link 16
> Grippen Link 16
> EuroFighter Link 16
> CF-18 Canada VMF
> Jaguar IDM
Tempest414I’m not going to get into a play on words, you said the MF2000
Your words “The MF -2000 upgrade opens up the Rafale toy box to the F-1 and gives it a mix of MK2 -9 and Rafale capability”
$21 million is the price the PAF paid (and this discussion is in relation to their purchase so I will stick with that figure).
Also, you missed my point that their is no data link or HMS in the MF2000 upgrade. These are pretty key features of why countries go for MLU.
Yes, as you rightfully say MF2000 makes the F-1 into a BVR platform, but the MLU makes a F-16A into much much more then that.
Oh come on now who’s playing on words MF-2000 makes F-1 much more than just a BVR platform it makes it BVR in the A2A / A2G and anti-shipping roles with a very impressive option of weapon
For A2A
MICA EM/IR
Sidewinder
Python
For air-to-ground missions,
the MF2000 can carry a wide range of guided and unguided munitions. Use of the Damocles day/night laser designation pod allows the carriage of a variety of laser-guided bombs, but perhaps the greatest expansion to air-to-ground capabilities is provided by the new AASM precision-guided, stand-off rocket-boosted bomb, supported by a mission preparation system provided by Sagem Défense Sécurité and a debriefing system
ARMAT anti-radiation missile
MBDA AM39 Exocet anti-ship missile.
So what mission can a F-16 MLU do that a F-1 MF-2000 can’t do
And you are missing my point which is that if the PAF were to buy or be given 12 or so F-16 A’s without the MLU carried out what would it cost in todays market to bring them up to PAF fleet standard
Tempest414Romania is paying little more than €10M for ex-Portuguese MLU M5.2…
This is why I asked the question is this for the full MLU to M5 sec or is this an upgraded air-frame having a M5 drop because as said Thailand is paying 38 million dollars
Tempest414Thanks for that.
Not wanting to divert this thread from the Pakistan Air Force, but in answer to your post
1) Much of the tech is from the Mirage 2000 – 5/9 programme, not from Rafale.
2) As mentioned, the PAF MLU package included a structural upgrade in the cost
3) No Link 16 and certainly no capability (both targeting and ISR ) that Sniper gives
4) Also, the cockpit becomes compatible with a HMS but none is provided in the MF2000 prgramme (happy to be corrected on this)As you can see from the above, I am not saying the MF2000 programe is not any good, just to argue that it presents much better value for money of the MLU programe of PAF is, in my opinion wrong). The $ sums are not vastly far apart (even if we are comparing 2006 $ with 2010 $
Firstly I never said MF-2000 had Rafale Tec I said it had Rafale capability in which it can carry almost all of the A2G weapons that a Rafale can carry
Second Damocles is an outstanding targeting and recon pod
Thirdly at 21 million MLU is a good price but today now you can not get MLU for 21 million it will cost you 38 million and as you can see from my last post both programs aim to carry out the same task with pretty much the same out come i.e. MLU makes the F-16A into a BVR capable multi-role platform and that is what the MF-2000 program has done for F-1
So to go back my first question was how much dose a MLU cost and what do you get and 38 million is a bit steep for an upgrade and in my opinion MLU is not 22 million dollars better
Tempest414No offence, but that is a very over simplified comparision.
1) The MF2000 upgrade gives nowhere near the capabilities of a F-16 MLU
2) Pakistan’s upgrades worked out around $21 million each and this included the FALCON STAR airframe upgrades. So for $21 million you get a plane with almost Block 52 capabilities (bar the engine) and another 20 years.
Yes I like to keep things simple so with this in mind lets look what is in the upgrade package for both
F-16 MLU upgrade
1. APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic aperture radars
2. Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System JHMCS
3. AN/APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe Systems
4. AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
5. Have Quick I/II Radios
6. Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminal
7. SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pods
8. Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units; MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
9. 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
10. Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
11. 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems
cost for 60 kits 1.3 billion or 21.6 million each 8 years ago cost today for the 18 Thailand air-frames 700 million or 38.9 million per kit
MF-2000 upgrade
1 .Thales RC400 (RDY3) multi-mode pulse Doppler radar
2 .Integrated Mk X11 IFF
3 .helmet mounted sighting system
4 .two SAGEM mission computers interfaced with a MIL STD 1553B digital databus,
5.Corail flare launchers and Phimat chaff dispensers.
6 .hybrid Sigma IN/GPS. The MF2000 has new secure voice radios
7 .Damocles day/night laser designation pod
8.radar warning receiver (RWR)
9 .external PAJ FA ECM pod
10 .new HUD with a broad panel up front control panel (UFCP) and features full HOTAS controls.
11 . modern zero-zero capable ejection seat
12 . Engine upgrade
Cost 420 million for 27 air-frames or 15.5 million dollars each
The MF -2000 upgrade opens up the Rafale toy box to the F-1 and gives it a mix of MK2 -9 and Rafale capability
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