that’s rather pricey support for a LIFT! we’re not talking about F22s here… but of course it all “depends” on the actual content. If its literaly just some spare parts and fitting them… too pricey. if it includes MLU / engine changes / overhauls, it gets a bit more “acceptable”… if it includes armaments and the like… then its a good deal.

it not pricey here is the simple version of the UK RAF/FAA flight per hour system from UK armed forces commentray

The cost of an aircraft fleet

There are two tables – Full and Marginal costs. Full cost is the annual cost of everything to do with that airframe including all the support staff, buildings, etc divided by the total number of hours flown in a year. i.e. all direct and indirect costs.

The marginal cost is the cost of one more hour in the air ignoring all the indirect (fixed) costs, i.e. fuel and maintenance. Full cost per hour will vary with the number of hours flown, marginal will not.
For example, the following figures were indicated in the 2009-2010 period for a number of platforms:

Typhoon – Full £68716 Marginal £3780
Harrier GR9 – Full £35762 Marginal £3945
C-130 J – Full £11587 Marginal £1888
C-130K – Full £9924 Marginal £2132
C-17 – Full £42068 Marginal £4870

For the Merlin HM1, the Treasury came up with an admortised figure, which has become sadly quite famous, of £41,588 in answer to a question in Parliament.

However, according to the Defence Aircraft Capitation Rates the operating cost for just the machine is £3,162 per funded flying hour. A Sea King, for comparison, is reported at £3,183 per flying hour.
The same document, however, then adds on the ancillary costs to each aircraft, eg aircrew, Unit admin, admortization, Westland storage costs for spare parts for a minimum of six months after servicing requests, the cost of RAF Benson and the cost of the still recent restructuring of the Depth Mainteinance process and facility, the cast of thousands in the MoD and the 1000 men at Westland, and with amazing accuracy comes up with £41,588 for the Merlin HM1, around 34.000 for Merlin HC3 and £16,723 for the Sea King 4 and 7.

As with the C130J, which has a full cost for airframe of 11587 pounds against the C130K’s 9924, the C130J IS cheaper to fly per hour than the predecessor, but it is weighted down by all sorts of other voices of expense that come on top of the proper airframe running expense. Absurdly, the more Full Cost figure would appear lower if there were more flown hours to spread the costs upon. As with the Typhoon, (in service from 2005) the Merlin is, absurdly, still a “young” type. Deliveries of the HM1 were completed only in 2002, and the logistics of the fleet have for long time been, quite honestly, a mess. It is only in 2006 that the situation was rectified, and now it is expected that the costs will steadily decrease.

there is already an air academy with all facilities that already has several aircraft types (cessna 172, lasta, T6, C208 caravan, Bell206)… I don’t see how they can justify $1Bn for service and support cost (even over 25 years)… unless they are planning on buying additional aircraft of the type to be supported from this fund.

1 billion split between 24 air-frame’s over 20 years is only 2 million per plane per year and over 25 years its 1.6 million lets be fair that’s less than an engine change with the cost of a F-404 at 6 million dollars and then when you split it down again over over 400 hours it comes to 5000 dollars

and you may have a air academy but will not have simulators for T-50 or engineering or logistical support and training all this will need to be put in place

and last of all Cessna 172’s / 208’s / Lasta /bell 206 can all operate from no more than a grass strip with little more than shed and half decent tool box to support them

Does anyone really think that given the current political (mostly lack of interest) and economic situation, that Brazil is actually going to order new fighters before 2015? It’s a legitimate question; I’m curious since almost everyone else so far doesn’t seem to think that they will.

I really doubt that the Rafale costing more than the F-18 and Gripen would be such a factor given the transfer or technology that the French are willing to give and have demonstrate in past cooperations when compared to the US. Who will without any doubt put limitations on the F/A-18 (remember the Australian experience with it?) and can even embargo the Gripen if they choose to. Any difference of price between the Rafale and the other competitors could also easily be fixed not only with the ToT. Sure FAB might have to get less Rafales because of the price, but with local manufacturing they might more easily get further aircraft down the road.

Honestly, looking at the Rafale’s capabilities and the political relationship between France and Brazil I would expect the Rafale to get more easily an order from Brazil than India. The only difference is that Brazil doesn’t have much of a neighboring threat or in an arms race as India is.

Best regards,

I don’t see them making an order until 2020 and feel that leasing 20 or so Gripen’s for 10 years is the way to go and then spending the time looking to replace AMX/F-5 with one type with an order for 110 units with the first 30 units delivered in 2025

I think I may have found some of the answer to the high price of the T-50 in the first F-16 deal

The first F-16 deal came in at 4.2 billion this included

 18 F-16IQ aircraft;
 24 F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines;
 24 APG-68v9 radar sets, the most modern radar available in Block 50 aircraft;
 20 pairs of Conformal Fuel Tanks, which mount along the back/top of the F-16;
 20 AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe (AIFF) Systems (without Mode IV)
 22 Advanced Countermeasures Electronic Systems (ACES), including the ALQ-187 Electronic Warfare System and AN/ALR-93 Radar Warning Receiver;
 22 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispensing Systems (CMDS);
 20 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems (INS), (using Standard Positioning Service (SPS) commercial code only)

Plus, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, ground based flight simulators, support equipment, tanker support and ferry services, modification kits, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD), spares and repair parts, repair and return, site survey (usually for basing), construction, and other forms of U.S. Government and contractor support services.

The order also requests weapons and equipment to arm the fighters. Here, too, a number of requests reveal downgraded or past-generation equipment, alongside other requests which are top of the line:

 19 M61 20mm Vulcan multi-barrel cannons, which are mounted internally;
 36 LAU-129/A Common Rail Launchers, which fit the F-16′s wingtips. They can be used with all AIM-9 missiles including the AIM-9X, and with the AIM-120 AMRAAM;
 200 AIM-9L/M-8/9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. These missiles are effective, and the AIM-9M missiles are still in widespread American use, but they’re a generation behind the current AIM-9X;
 150 AIM-7M-F1/H Sparrow Missiles. A couple of generations behind current beyond visual range air-to-air missiles. They lack the current AM-120 AMRAAM’s independent radar guidance and other improvements;
 50 AGM-65D/G/H/K Maverick Air to Ground Missiles;
 200 GBU-12 Paveway-II laser guided 500 lb. bombs;
 50 GBU-10 Paveway-II laser guided 2,000 lb. bombs;
 50 GBU-24 Paveway-III laser guided 2,000 lb. bombs with longer glide range and a “bunker busting” warhead;
 20 AN/AAQ-33 Sniper or AN/AAQ-28 LITENING advanced surveillance and targeting pods. Almost certain to be Lockheed Martin’s Sniper, given LITENING’s Israeli origins;
 4 F-9120 Advanced Airborne Reconnaissance Systems (AARS) or DB-110 Reconnaissance Pods (RECCE)

The second 18 F-16’s came in at 2.3 billion or half as much so if take a price of 25 million dollars per air-frame for T-50 that is 600 million dollars which leave 500 million dollars for spare engines – radars- and other parts as listed above initial training and construction and infrastructure to base the new type plus delivery the second 1billion is for the on going training and support over 20 years

I think all sources are clear on the “cost”.

$1.1Bn for 24 aircraft
$1Bn for support over 20 years.

That gives a unit flyaway cost of $45.8M

This year Korea and Philippines got their FA50 for a unit flyaway cost of $30M-$31M, and their planes came with the superior Elta El/M2032 radar (which Iraq will not buy).

So if the Iraqis are getting APG67 radar (from the baseline T50 trainer), then their aircraft should be, if anything, slightly CHEAPER than the Korean/Filipino aircraft!

Thus the additional $15M per aircraft would make the parliament defence committee, the MOD audit commission and the Finance ministry baulk at a $360M premium for the aircraft contract alone…. unless they are “getting something” for that premium.

What radar is the F-16IQ packing and could this be fitted to T-50 in some way

The T-50 already comes with AN/APG-67 which will support AIM-7 sparrow up to 60 nm’s BVR and if more power is needed fit the RM-12/ F404 but I do not see this adding 15m to price I would like to see where the money is being spent

No need to spend hundreds of thousands on new QRA sheds, work started on the new QRA sheds at the ‘old, old 12 Sqn site’ (Currently the Weapon Training cell) a few weeks back. At the moment the contractors have got access to the plumbing and electricity and soon the foundations will be laid. Next week work begins on Has 8 and 9 to bring them upto Q standard.

Sounds good but here is hoping the UK stay as one

Going back to the OP and what has been set out I like where it is going but I think I would make some changes that I think could see better long term sustainability and allow for deployment as seen fit

First the air force

Make Lossiemouth the main air-force base for Fighter – Transport- MPA install QRA sheds at each end of the main runway take 12 Typhoon’s from RAF stocks and base them in the south HAS site (617’s sheds)- lease 18 Gripen’s over 10 years (cost to the Czeck’s 780m Euros should be cheaper now but this works out at about £70m per year) base them in the North HAS site (12B’s sheds)- take 4 C-130’s and the 2 146 QC’s form RAF stocks and base them in 14 Sqn hangars – order 6 C-295 MPA’s of which the UK pays for two base them in 15 Sqn hangars – order 12 Merlin HC4’s of which the UK pays for 4 and base them on the north side of Kinloss also take 12 SeaKing HC4’s from UK stocks as a stop gap and base them in the same place – order 12 Lynx Wildcats HMA2’s of which the UK pays for 4 and take 6 lynx HMA8’s from Navy stocks and base them at a new site at Faslane naval base cost to the UK in year one £350 million for 4 Merlin 4 Wildcats 2 C-295MPA’s cost to Scotland in years 1-5 £225 million for 2 Merlin 2 wildcats 1 C-295 and the Gripen lease ( at £70m ) per year
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Second the Navy

Faslane would become the SDF HQ and main Naval base. The navy should look to take on the 3 newly ordered (2013) 90m OPV’s from UK stocks and order 3 more to be built on the Clyde have the crane removed and a telescopic hangar fitted also have them fitted with 1 57mm naval gun and 2 25mm cannons – order 4 100m Corvettes ( Khareef Class) to be built on the Clyde of which 1 to be paid for by the UK have these fitted with the same gun and cannon for ease of logistics – transfer one of the Wave class tankers and 1 Bay class landing ship for force support- also transfer 4 Archer-class patrol boats cost to the UK in year one £300 million for 3 90m OPV and one 100m Corvette cost to Scotland in year 1-3 £170 million per year for 1 90m OPV and one 100m Corvette
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Thirdly the Army

The 3 main army bases would be Leuchars – Kinloss and Edinburgh – all the army’s equipment would come from a split of UK assets

This would give Scotland by the end of year 5
30 Multi-role fast jets for QRA and able to deploy 6-8 overseas at anyone time
10 hulls for home waters defence able to deploy 2-3 on anti-drug/piracy duties or as seen fit
2 support ships able to deploy as needed
38 helicopters to support naval and troop needs
6 MPA’s for home waters defence & SAR
6 Transport aircraft to support deployments
Cost to the UK £650 million 12 Typhoons – 4 C-130J -2 146QC – 6 Lynx HMS8
Cost to Scotland in years 1-3 £395 million year 4 £225 million